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Thread: Perry Stone

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    Default Perry Stone

    Deliverance Needed for Perry Stone

    Perry Stone believes all Christians are raptured at the first rapture with no consideration for those Christians who prefer to lie on a bed of fornication: heck they are first raptured also! This directly violates Rev. 3.10 and Luke 21.36, where it is said only those who keep the word of His patience will be received to the throne (Rev. 7.9). If a Christian is not watchful and ready, he will not escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world, though he may be martyred during the Tribulation (God cannot promise the Church no martyrdom), which will be rewarded to reign during the millennium.

    The 24 elders are the 24 archangels, the eldest of the elders in the universe which are sitting while Christ is still standing in Rev. 4. The church does not sit while the Lion of Judah is standing. Revelation 4 is a picture of the view of the universe from heaven. John is raised in spirit, not bodily so it can not be a bodily rapture at this time. The past 20 centuries are the 6th chapter of Revelation of the six seals, secretively opened in this mystery age of the church and dispensation of grace.

    His other false teaching is gibberish babble. There is no gibberish babble found in the Scriptures except for the "mediums and psychics".

    Perry believes as you can see from his videos that when we die we go straight to heaven, but this makes no sense. Many believe that it is so, but they are deceived. The reason I am convinced of the fact that we don't go to heaven immediately when we die is because no one comes before the high priest naked; that is, you can't go to heaven, spirit and soul, permanently yet, for we need a resurrected body first.

    And we are resurrected together (1 Thess. 4.15-17), not one by one individually to heaven with people waiting with cakes in their hand and other gifts. The reason people believe our relatives are already in heaven is because it feels good (of the emotion not the spirit), but in fact we are not getting there unless together. Satan works in emotion to create various types of supernatural visions, even after death experiences which are excited by one's preconceived notions that are either true or false.

    The Bible says no man is in heaven yet, not even in David, so why are all these people having visions of after death experiences in a supposed heaven and other such phenomena as awake dreams and confirmation dreams? It is because they have fabricated the hope that it is true in their thoughts. For years they build up this expectation so the dreams and the after death experience fires off neurons for that very vision to take place.

    They make their own reality, but it is not spiritual reality. But what if it is in fact Satan's deception? Or even if it is not Satan's deception, it could still be wrong because they could be visions of the future when we are resurrected together at thee last trumpet in the future, not presently. We need to discern between perceiving such visions as telling us something of the future and actually having already happened.

    Now I have judged Perry Stone though he can not judge me the same. What I have said is not so unreasonable is it? Even so, I still like to watch his videos sometimes because he has some interesting things to say.

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    Default Re: Perry Stone

    http://www.voiceofevangelism.org/video.cfm Program # 289
    Journey to the Underworld Series Pt. 4 "Questions About Heaven and Paradise"
    -Direct Download

    About 1/3 way through, see Fred Stone's tears about the New City vision which was after about three and a half hours of prayer. I believe this was authentic even though he was in false tongues gibberish babble - false since tongues are unknown languages to the hearer, not to ourselves. We can not speak languages unknown to ourselves. People who have said this has been done always have an unethical means of doing so. To ourselves gibberish babble is not language of the spirit because it is vocalized internally or outwardly not intuitively generated; nor is it language of man, since it is not language with syntax. Fred Stone is looking for the new city, but the gibberish babble blocked any further seeing of it. God rewarded him for his lengthy prayer, but limited what he could see because of the gibberish babble which alters the Word.

    You may ask, why would God give him a vision at all if he was in false tongues to begin with? Wouldn't that give Satan ground to justify tongues means gibberish babble? I don't think so. First of all, Fred Stone is unclear about what he was praying to begin with long ago whether it was words or not: he said "I guess I was praying in a normal voice" but then after the vision it was "supernatural tongues" he said, "not the English language," but "other tongues and other languages". God can give a vision even though Satan is working something and tries to jump into the scene. In fact that is when Satan is working his best work is to mix his working in with God's working for a Satanic grace and baptism of the evil spirit. We should accept Fred Stone's vision, but we do not have to accept his false tongues. He need not repent for what God gave him, but he should repent for what God did not give him by refusing it.

    Pastor Wallam Hallam is wrong about 2 Cor. 5.8. He says this verse means a person goes straight to heaven when they die. No! To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord does not mean at the moment one dies since timeless unawares could be a vast amount of time but imperceptible.

    Notice Hallam said Jesus went to Hell, confusing Hell for Hades. But you let's not forget Rev. 20.14 which says, "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire" (KJV). How can hell be cast into hell-fire? That's why the ASV reads "death and hades..." I have heard no explanation about what hell-fire is if it is not hell! We must therefore conclude that the KJV was wrong on this point as is Hallam and the Stone family.

    I don't like how they use verses, but I like watching these Perry Stone episodes, because he is a gibberish speaker, and they see things differently than non-gibberish speakers. I believe greater deception will come from the pretrib onlyist gibberish speaking camp in addition to the calvinist historicalist camp. For example, the first group say everyone who is saved is in heaven already, but 1 Thess. 4.15-17 says we will be raised together with those who are still asleep. If they are still asleep then they are not in heaven yet. We do not come before the high priest naked! The latter group believes they were premade for salvation like robots, if you will, and that we are in a millennial peace now even though Rev. 20.3 says the nations would not be deceived.

    "But we would not have you ignorant, brethren, concerning those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel's call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord. Therefore comfort one another with these words (1 Thess. 4.13-18).

    Notice this that the whole broadcast by Perry Stone did not mention 1 Thess. or 1 Cor. 15 about those in Hades are still asleep awaiting resurrection at the last trumpet. How do we know it is the last trumpet at the consummation of this age?

    "Lo! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed" (1 Cor. 15.51-52).

    This is at the end of the Tribulation.

    "Now we see things imperfectly as in a poor mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God knows me now" (1 Cor. 13.12 NLT). "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known" (1 Cor. 13.13 KJV).

    This verse was used incorrectly by Perry. It is referring to our resurrected newly clothed spiritual body life, not to spirit and soul raised without a spiritual body. Yet, Perry Stone used it in this latter sense, which is too inaccurate for me. Yes, our spirit can be raised to see things like John saw from that great high mountain of Olympus, but it does not mean people are running around and doing all kinds of wonderful things yet, since we have not received newly clothed spiritual bodies yet. My experience for about half hour was as though I had gone to third heaven, though I cannot be sure. I can only say it was the most amazing experience of my life and I wanted it to never end. That's all I could remember saying is "I never want this to end" it was that spectacular. As I think about it I still can't believe it - how could something this amazing happen to me? I have nothing to say. I am just in awe of what God did this to me, and what He is going to do next.

    The visions people are having, however pleasant, of seeing their loved ones is mediums today (1 Sam. 28.7-8), because claims are being made of seeing and talking to dead people in after-life experiences and duplication confirmation experiences as though the mind has been set up such things all their lives to be manifested. If people are constantly looking for to speak languages they do not know, they will do so by copying others in prayer settings in their languages, then transposing that language into their own speech, pretentiously.

    Elijah was raptured alive, but Moses was not, yet they were both seen with Jesus at transfiguration. Elijah was raptured with his body (not to be seen again for a long time), so it might make sense that he could return, since he never died. He seems to be in stasis. Enoch never died. Both of them will return to die as the two witnesses in the Great Tribulation. But Moses should not have been seen (since he cannot be there in spirit and soul and body since he has not been given a body yet to be seen to be in) since he is still in the good side of Hades - Abraham's bosom - so how could he be seen? Let us apply proper thinking hereto what is reasonable.

    The only possible answer is that having a vision of someone does not mean they are actually there, but it is a remembrance of them in vision. The interaction between Lazarus and the rich man and Abraham after they died was not actually conducted, but was an expression of how they would behave if they could speak forth words. They are in timeless unawares.

    Don't get me wrong. These visions are real. But we must realize they are visions, not the actual person raised yet, since they have not been raised yet. Even Enoch and Elijah whose physical bodies vanished may not actually be in the 3rd heaven yet, because you can't come before the high priest naked. If they are yet to die, they don't have spiritual bodies yet, so though they are raptured, their return is from a state of timeless unawares above (rather than timeless unawares below). When they do what they do as the two witnesses, it will be as if it was the same day they were raptured many centuries ago.

    "Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished" (1 Cor. 15.18). This is timeless unawares for those who have died.

    Perry Stone misuses these verses - Gen. 25.8, 35.29, 49.33, Mark 15.37 by thinking "joining his ancestors in death" means to be raptured spirit and soul. Rather, they have gone to timeless unawares awaiting for resurrection in the day of the Lord at the last trumpet in the parousia of Christ. Each time a person gives up the Ghost, they go to hades, they are not raptured alive like Enoch or Elijah.

    Conclusions: (1) gibberish babble - altering the Word - goes too far, misreading the Word, but much is to be forgiven since their hearts are in the right place, (2) Satan has found inroads in the Church through gibberish babble in order to create supernatural errors in visions, (3) nobody is in heaven yet, so manifestations thought to be, are projections of future events rather than present happenings, (4) such visions could be affected outside the boundary of time so that is why they are seeing them now, even speaking to them in heaven, which is yet future at resurrection, (5) overassuming first rapture is dangerous and false fruit, (6) pride of calvinism is puffed up and false fruit, (7) historicalism is horrible and false fruit, and (8) be careful at the moment of baptism of the Holy Spirit or other supernatural phenomenon because Satan will try to imprint himself at the moment of this vulnerability and create a thought life that will draw false conclusions from supernatural deceptive visions.

    Causes: This is the crux of the deeper debate in Christianity. Satan is imprinting himself in supernatural manifestations if we are lax at the point of vulnerability when opening oneself to God's visions. This would explain the different understanding of these verses.

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    Default Re: Perry Stone

    Program # 289
    Journey to the Underworld Series Pt. 5 "More Secrets of Paradise"
    -Direct Download

    Problem with Perry: he makes the mistake of saying those who are saved are raised immediately when they die, preventing the function of hades for us to be raptured together from. By raising people before we are raised together produces all kinds of fantasies about what the raised are doing now in heaven as we see on his program, in all the imaginations souls are experiencing because of their own self-induced expectations and pretribulation rapture onlyism, rather than accepting first rapture is according to readiness. It would be one thing if these visions were of the future, but they presenting such occurrences as being in the present, which is talking to mediums and psychics, necromancy and spiritism. Jesus will not intercede for these imaginations. No visions in the Bible are of souls in heaven.

    Perry cites, "For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him" (1 Thess. 4.14) as reason to why there is no rest in timeless unawares (commonly thought of as soul-sleep). He thinks that by Jesus bringing us with Him when He returns it means there was no time spent in timeless unawares. Should we overassume so much?

    Yet we read, "the dead in Christ shall rise first" (v.16) and "we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (v.17). Clearly, first there is the rising (together), then follows the His return when He "brings with him" His overcomers (Rev. 20.4). When do believers rise? At the last trumpet of the Tribulation (11.15) which marks the completion of the 18th month of the 1st and 2nd woe (9.10,15). (See 1 Cor. 15.23, "afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" to meeting Him in the air).

    How do we know it is the last trumpet (3rd woe) of resurrection and final harvest (Rev. 14.-14-16)? Because the "trump" (1 Thess. 4.16) spoken of is the "last trumpet" in 1 Cor. 15.52. The Tribulation at the consummation of this age is the last week of the 70 weeks in Daniel, comprised of 7 trumpets. First rapture is according to readiness (Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36), while the last trumpet is according to completion of all the saved who had not been raptured at first rapture or during the Tribulation as martyrs.

    Understand clearly the gaping hole in Perry's thoughts which need to be pointed out clearly for his understanding and correction. He has people raised without a body immediately when they die as they are torn apart from having a body with their spirit and soul. But the Bible says no one will come before the high priest naked (Ex. 20.26). Then he believes that when we return we will get spiritual bodies. He is unwilling to allow timeless unawares of Hades to fulfill its function for us to be raised together with spiritual bodies so none are preceding ahead (1 Thess. 4.15) to give us comfort (v.18). God said none are is heaven yet, not even David, the man after God's own heart: For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself" (Acts 2.34).

    A further rationalization used by Perry is pertaining to the location of the martyrs in Rev. 6.9-11, in which he claims those under the altar are not in hades, but located underneath the glass upon which the throne sits in heaven: "before the throne [there was] a sea of glass like unto crystal" (4.6). But, we must remember that the rapture does not take place until Rev. 7.9 "before the throne, and before the Lamb" in 3rd heaven. And, the sea of glass is to denote no longer will God judge the world with water (Gen. 9.15) which the rainbow is a memorial, plus there is no sea in eternity on either the old earth or the new earth. In chapter 15, the glassy sea is "mingled with fire" (v.2) in its intermediate state before becoming the lake of fire for the unsaved to dwell. Do you see the implication? Perry is claiming the saved are where those in hell are going to?

    There are two altars: (1) that which upon sacrifices are offered, and (2) the golden altar of incense. The altar in Rev. 6.9 must be the altar of sacrifices for this reason.
    (a) After a person dies they do not go straight to heaven, because they cannot stand next to the golden altar of incense if they are not "clothed upon" (2 Cor. 5.4).
    (b) The Bible always refers to "altar" as the altar of sacrifice. Whenever the golden altar is referred to special words are used, "golden" and "incense" to distinguish it from the altar in the outer court.
    (c) The blood of all the sacrifices flows down under the altar (Ex. 29.12; Lev. 4.7, 5.9).
    (d) The altar signifies the cross, and "underneath the altar" (Rev. 6.9) signifies underneath the earth. Ergo, underneath the altar signifies the Paradise in the "heart of the earth" (Matt. 12.40). Not only in Acts 2.27 can no man appear before God without a body from the good side of hades, nor can anyone enter hell without their body from under the earth's bad side of hades (Numbers 16.32). In neither of these two places will a man be resurrected without a resurrected body. Before the 1000 years the saved are raised. After the 1000 years the unsaved are raised. The saved from the millennial kingdom are raised at GWT also.

    The "white robe" (Rev. 6.11) signifies they are justified, not salvation in new birth, but the justification of the saints winning the case, only waiting for the verdict to be executed.

    "Rest yet for a little time" (v.11)- Here we see the Church cannot be raptured all at once during the Tribulation, because this implies a protracted persecution during the Tribulation which allows for a first rapture, a rapture of martyrs during the Tribulation raised 3.5 days after being martyred like the two witnesses, and the last trumpet resurrection. During the Tribulation there will be a great slaughter, but it will be different than the political persecution (7.13-15) of the "tribulation the great" past 20 centuries. During the last week consummation of this age, the persecution will be religious (17.6).

    "Underneath the altar" does not imply sin offering (to receive eternal life), but alludes to death as a consequence of burnt-offering (Ex. 40.6,10,29; Lev. 4.7,10,18; 1 Chron. 6.49, 16.40, 21.29; 2 Chron. 29.18). Therefore, first rapture does not appear to have a resurrection of the saints, but comprises only those raptured alive who make themselves a burnt-offering, that is to say, a living sacrifice in that same spirit Paul also offered himself as a burnt-offering (Phil. 2.17; 2 Tim. 4.6).

    Now if there is no resurrection at first rapture, then those who are justified with white robes for their living sacrifice, will be raptured at the last trumpet. But if God chooses to rapture at first rapture the living sacrifices along with those who keep the Word of His patience (Rev. 3.10), whom are still alive at first rapture, then God may do so according to His divine prerogative. Perhaps the reason God would resurrect the martyrs only and not other overcomers at first rapture is because He will use them to war against Satan and cast him out of 2nd heaven (12.5). Who more qualified than the martyrs? Carnal Christians would not be up to the task as they remained on a bed of fornication, so they should be raptured at the end of the Tribulation, and will not return with Christ to receive rewards.

    Aside from the question of when the saved will be raptured is the question of who will reign during the millennium (20.4): (1) "thrones, and they that sat upon them" - this refers to those people such as cited in 3.21; (2) "them that had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God" during the tribulation of the past 20 centuries (they are resurrected at first rapture)-those mentioned in 6.11; and (3) "such as worshiped not the beast, neither the image"-this is referring to to those fellow-servants and their brethren mentioned in 6.11 (they are also resurrected as they die individually during the Tribulation).

    The next problem that was observed was what Walter Hallam said. In reference to 1 Cor. 15.25,26 ("last enemy destroyed death") and Psalms 116.15 ("precious...is the death of his saints"), the reason he says martyrs or those who have died and are saved is a glory to God is not to us but to God, because now they can enter heaven: the spirit and the soul leave the body. But is this true? They are bypassing God's use of hades to be "caught up together" (1 Thess. 4.17) according to 1 Cor. 15.23, "afterward they that are Christ's at his coming" to meet Him in the air.

    The soul and spirit cannot be separated from the body, but require a newly clothed spiritual body to enter 3rd heaven. The reason the death of the Saints is precious is because it is a wonderful testimony of truth, such as when the coats were thrown down before Paul's feet when he witnessed the stoning of Stephen to death. In reaction, by the grace of God, Paul became greatest Apostle in the first century as a result. This is why the martyrdom of Christians is precious, because of its impact on others. When there is one death, it produces many more believers. The meaning of the death of the Saints being precious to God for to be raptured immediately is not the meaning here at all. Perry Stone and Walter Hallam are off base.

    Perry places those who have passed away who are saved at the "glass window," (using his own words), but it is not a window but a "sea of glass" underneath the altar of incense in the "midst of the throne" (Rev. 4.6). "Midst" can only have reference to the lower center before the throne. And remember, none are raptured at Revelation 4, 5 or 6. First rapture before throne is at 7.9.

    The vision of Moses and Enoch does not mean they were in heaven raised up without a body. Enoch is going to return with his body to yet die as one of the two witnesses. The vision at the transfiguration was not of one man without a body and one with a body. Instead they were visions given by God only. Though they may be raised, they are not in 3rd heaven yet. They are existing in a place of timeless unawares, whether above or below. I suspect Enoch is in timeless unawares above to be awakened, while Moses is in Hades awaiting for resurrection at the consummation of this age. Therefore, the visions seen of Moses and Enoch were just visions only, not the actual persons.

    A death of a loved one hurts, but knowing they are awaiting resurrection, and they are not really dead gives us comfort we shall be raised together. Do not believe the death of a loved one is already in heaven, because that is not reality, and you would be accepting feelings that don't accurately represent what is happening in God's design. Therefore don't say as Walter Hallam says that "they are now living in heaven". This is a direct violation of the "comfort" (1 Cor. 14.18) we receive in knowing we will be raised together.

    Job 42.12,13 says Job will receive back double. Job had 7 sons and 3 daughters who were killed, but later on he has 7 sons and 3 daughters again. Yet this only double if the first 7 sons and 3 daughters are saved. Perry tries to justify that the saved go immediately to heaven with this thought. But this thought does not demand his claim. Rather, it shows us that he will be raised together with his 14 sons and 6 daughters. Perry said he prayed to God for the answer, and the response he got back from some being was "7 sons are with the Lord..." Isn't this interesting? Perry would be communicating with an evil spirit, since God did not say this time him.

    The emotion in in the married couples of Perry and his wife, and Hallam and his wife has them convinced that the Bible doesn't mean there won't be marriage in heaven, but they shall spend an eternity with their spouse as a couple in heaven. This shows they are on another playing field where emotion is still their guiding principle and not spirit. Perry says sexual relations are not necessary, but there is still the marriage relationship. This is a violation of: "For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven" (Matt. 22.30). Angels don't have sex, nor are they in couples relationships. It makes one think that there is a great many in Christendom whom God considers to be the tares who try to look like the wheat. Various excuses are put forth such as:
    - this is in response to the law of being given in marriage, or
    - "we will be known as we are known feeling," are the words Perry uses to misread 1 Cor. 13.12, "Now we see things imperfectly as in a poor mirror, but then we will see everything with perfect clarity. All that I know now is partial and incomplete, but then I will know everything completely, just as God knows me now." The being known is as God knows us, not how other people perceives us now. After all, other people can see us darkly today.
    - Hallam puts forward the idea that Jesus was only speaking in response to the Sadducee's trying to trick Him in Matt. 22.25-30, so his response has no validity in meaning what v.30 says. He is lost in his emotion. What you are witnessing here is the power of rationalization to misread these verses in these two men.
    - Hallam has declared to God that him and his wife are going to live together forever with their children, and that there is still man and women intimate relationships as though in marriage still.

    The rationalizations continue, that there is knowledge in heaven, so therefore, those in heaven if they are there, would exhibit this trait of knowledge, citing Rev. 6.10-11, where these martyrs knew certain facts, such as there would be more martyrs to come in a short period of time. However, if these martyrs were in heaven, they would be raptured at the first rapture to receive newly clothed resurrected bodies, so that they would not be raptured until then. They would not be raptured in past centuries when they died like the martyrs of the Tribulation or the two witnesses soon after they died. The whole point of 1 Thess. 4.13-18 is that were are comforted in being raised together at the Lord's return (1 Cor. 15.23). In the scene between Lazarus and the rich man where they could communicate back and forth from the good side and the bad side of hades, does not actually depict they were having this conversation, but rather it shows what such a conversation would be like if they could speak to each other. The same holds true with visions of loved ones in heaven. It doesn't mean they are there yet, but that those who are saved will by the time of completion of the last trumpet to first to meet the Lord in the air.

    In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit we need to reject such false teachings of those who are saved as being in heaven already because it stimulates our emotion and imagination to untruths.

    Perry goes further where he doesn't belong in Heb. 12.1 overassuming this verse means the saved can at times look in to see how we are doing here on earth to encourage us. Do you see how the ideas get more and more unruly? They are trying to talk to dead people. This is necromancy. John never had such experience. His experience was with God on that great high mountain. People who cling to the world will cling expectations of heaven from earth, instead of the kingdom of God within the believer to interpret the Word correctly.

    Perry tries to draw a connection of folks who have similar experiences of talking to dead people. If they have this assumption that they are in heaven, they will fabricate talking to these dead people. Perhaps the pain is too great, that it begins to manifest itself, yet it is not reality since none have been raised yet.

    "And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it." (Gen. 28.12) - This verse is used by Hallam to rationalize that spirits go up the ladder, so shall men be able to go up the ladder and down the ladder to communicate to us. This is spiritism.

    Certainly the Angels are ministering spirits (Heb. 1.14; cf. John 1.51). They carry prayers upward and bring blessings down. "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Rev. 5.8). The 24 elders are eldest elders of the universe: the archangels. The focus of the prayers of the saints is upon the second coming of the Lord. Harps are for praising and bowls for incense are for presenting prayers. Never are these men going up and down. Men and women are still waiting for resurrection in timeless unawares.

    Conclusion: what Perry is teaching is a form if spiritism. Now you can see why God maintains anyone who has gone to rest in timeless unawares. Perry derogatorily calls it soul-sleep which denotes a passivity rather than merely timeless unawares. The Bible never used the term soul-sleep. The proper terminology is resting in timeless unawares. He is unable to account for how it could be possible that the spirit and soul could be separated from the body. This is an unworkable scenario. And it is wrong to try to come before the High Priest naked.

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