Churchwork
02-01-2011, 04:48 PM
re: Robert Harris @ rapture-secondcoming.com, midnightministries.com
That's because 1 Thess. 4:14-17 is really a Second Coming passage when Christ returns with all His saints (a great cloud of witnesses) and not a pre-trib Rapture passage. There is no need for Christ to descend with a shout; with the voice of an Archangel and the trump of God at pre-trib--there will be no battle then, so it is not weird or a private interpretation.
The first rapture is in secret not with a shout. The trumpets are with a shout. We are not to let our homes be broken into but stand ready at the door. The thief in the night comes to to steal the best first.
What you teach is weird since the saints aren't clouds. You said, "The clouds are His saints at the Second Coming." Nowhere do we find the saints are clouds, but the saints are to meet the Lord in the clouds. We who are alive and left shall be "caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thess. 4.17).
Nowhere in 1 Thess. 4.14-17 do we see Jesus step down on the mount of olives. He does that after the bowls of wrath which are the 24 months of the 7th trumpet (Rev. 19.11-16). And His overcomers step down with Him. They are not floating in the sky when Jesus returns. 1 Thess. 4.14-17 is the rapture and resurrection at the last trumpet, not the first trumpet. The first rapture is all the way back at Rev. 7.9 "before the throne" before the first trumpet of the Tribulation commences (8.7ff). And the first rapture is according to readiness to escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world (Rev. 3.10). Only those who are watchful, prayerful and keep the word of His patience shall escape all these things that shall come to pass in in the Tribulation (Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36).
Rev. 7:9-17 and Rev. 12: are two totally different pictures. The first group had soiled robes who overcame and washed their robes, the second group is the nation of Israel after the Gospel goes back to her and they flee into the wilderness (Matt. 24:32-33; Rom. 11:25; Rev. 12:6), not the Church who is clothed with the Son--clothed with the Bright and Morning Star and redeemed in Heaven at that time.Revelation 12 to 19 give the details of the major points in Rev. 7 to 11. Hence, Rev. 12 gives the details of Rev. 7. Rev. 7 speaks of the great multitude and is first mentioned at chapter 7 because it is before the trumpets of the Tribulation. Their robes are washed not soiled (Rev. 7.14).
The multitude mentioned in 7.9-17 and the people represented by the man child in 12.1-11 have many points in common:
(1) According to 7.10 the multitude are saved by the Lamb, and according to 12.11 those included in the man child overcome because of the blood of the Lamb.
(2) Those mentioned in 7.9 stand before the throne; the man child spoken of in 12.5 is raptured to the throne.
(3) Salvation is attributed to God and to the Lamb in 7.10, and in 12.10 salvation is said to come from God and His Christ.
(4) We read in 7.1-8 that the twelve tribes are sealed, and we read in 12.1 that the woman has upon her head a crown of twelve stars. (The crown of twelve stars does not refer to the twelve apostles, for Joseph dreamed of twelve stars and those clearly pointed to the twelve tribes.)
(5) We find in 7.11 that the angels burst out in praises, and we find in 12.10 that a great voice is heard in heaven.
(6) Since the people spoken of in 7.9 stand before the throne of God they must have resurrection bodies, and likewise the man child spoken of in 12.5 must have a resurrection body. The word "delivered" in verse 5 should be explained according to the rule of interpreting visions, not according to the rule of literal interpretation. From the explanation given in Acts 13.33-34, we can readily see that this is resurrection. Without a resurrection body no one can see God, for he will be reckoned as naked (2 Cor. 5.2,3; Ex. 20.26, 28.42). 1 Corinthians 15 speaks of resurrection as a sure fact; 2 Corinthians 5 speaks of the facts about resurrection. Today there is no Christian before the throne; this will be true later in the future. In Revelation 4.6 no one is shown standing on the glassy sea; only by the time of Revelation 15 will there be people standing on it (v.2 mg.). Acts 2.34 explicitly says that David has not ascended to heaven, and 1 Samuel 28.13-14 definitely states that Samuel came up out of the earth. Both indicate that they have not yet been clothed with a resurrection body. The Lord alone is one who descended out of heaven and yet is in heaven (John 3.13). Even Enoch and Elijah, who were taken to heaven, may presently be placed somewhere else, since they probably do not have a transformed body.
(7) In 7.15 we have the words "spread his tabernacle over them", in 12.12 we have the words "O heavens, and ye that dwell in them" which in Greek is "ye that tabernacle in them" (see also John 1.14 where "dwelt" in Greek is actually "tabernacled").
(8) Those mentioned in 7.9 are overcomers, for (a) the white garments are promised to those in Sardis who have not defiled their garments, (b) not to pass through the trial of the Great Tribulation to come is assured to those in Philadelphia who have kept the word of patience, and (c) the palm is always a symbol of victory. The man child spoken of in 12.5 is likewise an overcomer, since he will rule the nations with a rod of iron. Rev. 2.26 says, "To all who are victorious, who obey me to the very end, I will give authority over all the nations."
Above any doctrine in the New Testament, faith that works by love is preeminent; it is not a new requirement of watching--it is biblical watching (1 Thess. 5:6-8).
I didn't say it was a new teaching, I said do all Christians watch? No, of course. Many lie on a bed of fornication, tied down the world like a balloon unwilling to be released. Paul said there are carnal and spiritual Christians.
Your statement can't be, and is impossible to be substantiated by any Scripture--it is your own private interpretation. No saved Christian will ever be in Outer Darkness. Moreover, Outer Darkness is far more than lost rewards; it is punishment for the Wicked--not the righteous--there will be weeping gnashing of teeth!!!I don't know if you are saved yet, but I do know that if you are saved you will go to outer darkness. There is no punishment like receiving lashes or something like that. But there is gnashing of teeth because of regret and sorrow. The punishment for the wicked, the unsaved, go to Hell which is bright with fire and not usually considered darkness. Think of outer darkness, mentioned by name 3 times in Scripture, as being like standing in a forest looking at a brightly lit log cabin and those inside enjoying a great feast. Until the 1000 years is over the saved will not get to enter the New City. Also consider this analogy. You're painting a house, but you are sloppy in your work so you get paint all over yourself. So before being able to enter the shower, you will need to wipe the paint off your skin with gasoline which stings. This is the outer darkness of loss of rewards. Paul was not praying to be saved, but that he could be included in the rewards and not go to outer darkness, outside the light of the reward of reigning with Christ for the 1000 years. There are consequences for Christians. If you deny this then you have false teaching.
Paul didn't believe he would ever be raptured--conversely, he knew he was going to die, and immediately go into the presence of the Lord. Indeed, being alive and with Christ is gain--anything else wouldn't be (Philip. 1:21).Paul never said anywhere he thought he couldn't be raptured alive. No one is in heaven yet. Nobody can come before the high priest naked, so nobody is in the presence of the Lord in 3rd heaven yet. Even David a man after God's own heart is not in heaven yet (Acts 2.34). Phil. 1.21 doesn't say to live is gain, it says "to die is gain." Dying is even better because if you have died with Christ then Satan can't work in your flesh since it is dead. And because after death is the resurrection.
Some argue that according to I Thessalonians 4.15, the living “shall in no wise precede them who are fallen asleep” -The dead are resurrected at the seventh trumpet; and so timewise, rapture occurs after the Tribulation. Now if there is a first rapture, it will have to take place before the resurrection of the dead. But since this verse distinctly says “shall in no wise,” how then can rapture take place twice? Let me say in reply that it is most precious and significant to find in both verse 15 and verse 17 the qualifying clauses “we that are alive, that are left” - Now to be alive is obviously to be left on earth; why, then, is there this apparent unnecessary repetition? Because it implies that there are people who though alive yet have already gone ahead (that is, raptured) and therefore are no longer left on earth. Would Paul enlist himself among this class of people who are alive and are left? Not at all. He uses the word “we” only because he is speaking at that moment of writing, and the proof of this is that since Paul no longer lives today, he cannot be numbered among those who are left on earth. Our summary conclusion to all this is that the third school of interpretation seems to be the correct one - that is to say, that one group of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation while another group of believers will go through the Tribulation and be raptured afterwards.
The great crowd, considering that no other group of people can go to Heaven other than believers, must be the foolish also attending the Wedding Feast--these will hunger and thirst no more ((Rev. 7:9-17). They had soiled robes which were washed, and they also will receive the gift the Bright & Morning Star--they will be with Christ and all the saints at the Second Coming--the glorious dawn at That Day!The foolish virgins will also go to the New City since they are of the same class, but they do not get to enter the marriage feast with the 5 wise virgins because they were carnal believes. Nor would they be raptured at the first rapture if they were alive at that time.
True readiness is faith that works by the use of agape love (1 Thess. 5:6-8). Those who sleep in Jesus refers to their dead bodies sleeping in Jesus, but their spirits are the spirits of just men made perfect and very much alive in the presence of God (these is no such thing as a perfect dead spirit!). Therefore you do error in thinking that martyrs are raptured at the beginning of the Tribulation--conversely, they're spirits never die (John 11:26), and are immediately in the presence of the Lord upon their death--alive and cognizant!You are not a spirit being but a soulical being. Angels are spirits. Men are souls. You are living soul with a spirit and a body. Your spirit can't flinging off apart from your body and soul. To be a fully functioning being you need a soul with a mind, will and emotion and a spirit with the functions of intuition, communion and conscience. To function you need both self-consciousness of your soul and God-consciousness of your spirit. When God created man, He directly created man's spirit and when it made contact with the body, man became a living soul. Your spirit can be taken up to see a vision, but not while you are asleep waiting to be resurrected. That would be silly.
You are not alive in Christ when you go to sleep, but must wait to comfort one another to be resurrected together (1 Thess. 4.18). It's quite like turning your computer off, all is saved, and when it is turned on again the software works again. Don't think there are millions of souls in heaven for many centuries. There is not even one. I have no idea what a dead perfect spirit is you are talking about, but if you are unsaved your spirit is dead to God and needs to be regenerated with His life. Since the martyrs in the 5th Seal are before the Trumpets of the Tribulation, of course they are raptured before the Tribulation as they are given white robes.
John 11.26 says those who are saved will never perish, that is, go to Hell. It does not say we don't go to sleep awaiting to be resurrected. Many Scriptures talk about when a person dies they go to sleep. The unsaved or rest of the dead and resurrected 1000 years after the saints. Just like the repentant thief was told he would see Jesus this day, it was in paradise below (figuratively of course since there is no conscious awareness in soul sleep), not above since Jesus that day went to the good side of Hades below, the place of timeless unawares or soul sleep.
Hope this helps. By the way I still think it is wrong for you to highjack the word "partial rapture" and change its meaning to something totally unrelatede because in seminaries and eschatological studies, "partial rapture" always refers to the first rapture according to readiness (Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10). Another name for "partial rapture" is "separate rapture." You can use these two words interchangeablely.
That's because 1 Thess. 4:14-17 is really a Second Coming passage when Christ returns with all His saints (a great cloud of witnesses) and not a pre-trib Rapture passage. There is no need for Christ to descend with a shout; with the voice of an Archangel and the trump of God at pre-trib--there will be no battle then, so it is not weird or a private interpretation.
The first rapture is in secret not with a shout. The trumpets are with a shout. We are not to let our homes be broken into but stand ready at the door. The thief in the night comes to to steal the best first.
What you teach is weird since the saints aren't clouds. You said, "The clouds are His saints at the Second Coming." Nowhere do we find the saints are clouds, but the saints are to meet the Lord in the clouds. We who are alive and left shall be "caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thess. 4.17).
Nowhere in 1 Thess. 4.14-17 do we see Jesus step down on the mount of olives. He does that after the bowls of wrath which are the 24 months of the 7th trumpet (Rev. 19.11-16). And His overcomers step down with Him. They are not floating in the sky when Jesus returns. 1 Thess. 4.14-17 is the rapture and resurrection at the last trumpet, not the first trumpet. The first rapture is all the way back at Rev. 7.9 "before the throne" before the first trumpet of the Tribulation commences (8.7ff). And the first rapture is according to readiness to escape the hour of trial that is to come upon the whole world (Rev. 3.10). Only those who are watchful, prayerful and keep the word of His patience shall escape all these things that shall come to pass in in the Tribulation (Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36).
Rev. 7:9-17 and Rev. 12: are two totally different pictures. The first group had soiled robes who overcame and washed their robes, the second group is the nation of Israel after the Gospel goes back to her and they flee into the wilderness (Matt. 24:32-33; Rom. 11:25; Rev. 12:6), not the Church who is clothed with the Son--clothed with the Bright and Morning Star and redeemed in Heaven at that time.Revelation 12 to 19 give the details of the major points in Rev. 7 to 11. Hence, Rev. 12 gives the details of Rev. 7. Rev. 7 speaks of the great multitude and is first mentioned at chapter 7 because it is before the trumpets of the Tribulation. Their robes are washed not soiled (Rev. 7.14).
The multitude mentioned in 7.9-17 and the people represented by the man child in 12.1-11 have many points in common:
(1) According to 7.10 the multitude are saved by the Lamb, and according to 12.11 those included in the man child overcome because of the blood of the Lamb.
(2) Those mentioned in 7.9 stand before the throne; the man child spoken of in 12.5 is raptured to the throne.
(3) Salvation is attributed to God and to the Lamb in 7.10, and in 12.10 salvation is said to come from God and His Christ.
(4) We read in 7.1-8 that the twelve tribes are sealed, and we read in 12.1 that the woman has upon her head a crown of twelve stars. (The crown of twelve stars does not refer to the twelve apostles, for Joseph dreamed of twelve stars and those clearly pointed to the twelve tribes.)
(5) We find in 7.11 that the angels burst out in praises, and we find in 12.10 that a great voice is heard in heaven.
(6) Since the people spoken of in 7.9 stand before the throne of God they must have resurrection bodies, and likewise the man child spoken of in 12.5 must have a resurrection body. The word "delivered" in verse 5 should be explained according to the rule of interpreting visions, not according to the rule of literal interpretation. From the explanation given in Acts 13.33-34, we can readily see that this is resurrection. Without a resurrection body no one can see God, for he will be reckoned as naked (2 Cor. 5.2,3; Ex. 20.26, 28.42). 1 Corinthians 15 speaks of resurrection as a sure fact; 2 Corinthians 5 speaks of the facts about resurrection. Today there is no Christian before the throne; this will be true later in the future. In Revelation 4.6 no one is shown standing on the glassy sea; only by the time of Revelation 15 will there be people standing on it (v.2 mg.). Acts 2.34 explicitly says that David has not ascended to heaven, and 1 Samuel 28.13-14 definitely states that Samuel came up out of the earth. Both indicate that they have not yet been clothed with a resurrection body. The Lord alone is one who descended out of heaven and yet is in heaven (John 3.13). Even Enoch and Elijah, who were taken to heaven, may presently be placed somewhere else, since they probably do not have a transformed body.
(7) In 7.15 we have the words "spread his tabernacle over them", in 12.12 we have the words "O heavens, and ye that dwell in them" which in Greek is "ye that tabernacle in them" (see also John 1.14 where "dwelt" in Greek is actually "tabernacled").
(8) Those mentioned in 7.9 are overcomers, for (a) the white garments are promised to those in Sardis who have not defiled their garments, (b) not to pass through the trial of the Great Tribulation to come is assured to those in Philadelphia who have kept the word of patience, and (c) the palm is always a symbol of victory. The man child spoken of in 12.5 is likewise an overcomer, since he will rule the nations with a rod of iron. Rev. 2.26 says, "To all who are victorious, who obey me to the very end, I will give authority over all the nations."
Above any doctrine in the New Testament, faith that works by love is preeminent; it is not a new requirement of watching--it is biblical watching (1 Thess. 5:6-8).
I didn't say it was a new teaching, I said do all Christians watch? No, of course. Many lie on a bed of fornication, tied down the world like a balloon unwilling to be released. Paul said there are carnal and spiritual Christians.
Your statement can't be, and is impossible to be substantiated by any Scripture--it is your own private interpretation. No saved Christian will ever be in Outer Darkness. Moreover, Outer Darkness is far more than lost rewards; it is punishment for the Wicked--not the righteous--there will be weeping gnashing of teeth!!!I don't know if you are saved yet, but I do know that if you are saved you will go to outer darkness. There is no punishment like receiving lashes or something like that. But there is gnashing of teeth because of regret and sorrow. The punishment for the wicked, the unsaved, go to Hell which is bright with fire and not usually considered darkness. Think of outer darkness, mentioned by name 3 times in Scripture, as being like standing in a forest looking at a brightly lit log cabin and those inside enjoying a great feast. Until the 1000 years is over the saved will not get to enter the New City. Also consider this analogy. You're painting a house, but you are sloppy in your work so you get paint all over yourself. So before being able to enter the shower, you will need to wipe the paint off your skin with gasoline which stings. This is the outer darkness of loss of rewards. Paul was not praying to be saved, but that he could be included in the rewards and not go to outer darkness, outside the light of the reward of reigning with Christ for the 1000 years. There are consequences for Christians. If you deny this then you have false teaching.
Paul didn't believe he would ever be raptured--conversely, he knew he was going to die, and immediately go into the presence of the Lord. Indeed, being alive and with Christ is gain--anything else wouldn't be (Philip. 1:21).Paul never said anywhere he thought he couldn't be raptured alive. No one is in heaven yet. Nobody can come before the high priest naked, so nobody is in the presence of the Lord in 3rd heaven yet. Even David a man after God's own heart is not in heaven yet (Acts 2.34). Phil. 1.21 doesn't say to live is gain, it says "to die is gain." Dying is even better because if you have died with Christ then Satan can't work in your flesh since it is dead. And because after death is the resurrection.
Some argue that according to I Thessalonians 4.15, the living “shall in no wise precede them who are fallen asleep” -The dead are resurrected at the seventh trumpet; and so timewise, rapture occurs after the Tribulation. Now if there is a first rapture, it will have to take place before the resurrection of the dead. But since this verse distinctly says “shall in no wise,” how then can rapture take place twice? Let me say in reply that it is most precious and significant to find in both verse 15 and verse 17 the qualifying clauses “we that are alive, that are left” - Now to be alive is obviously to be left on earth; why, then, is there this apparent unnecessary repetition? Because it implies that there are people who though alive yet have already gone ahead (that is, raptured) and therefore are no longer left on earth. Would Paul enlist himself among this class of people who are alive and are left? Not at all. He uses the word “we” only because he is speaking at that moment of writing, and the proof of this is that since Paul no longer lives today, he cannot be numbered among those who are left on earth. Our summary conclusion to all this is that the third school of interpretation seems to be the correct one - that is to say, that one group of believers will be raptured before the Tribulation while another group of believers will go through the Tribulation and be raptured afterwards.
The great crowd, considering that no other group of people can go to Heaven other than believers, must be the foolish also attending the Wedding Feast--these will hunger and thirst no more ((Rev. 7:9-17). They had soiled robes which were washed, and they also will receive the gift the Bright & Morning Star--they will be with Christ and all the saints at the Second Coming--the glorious dawn at That Day!The foolish virgins will also go to the New City since they are of the same class, but they do not get to enter the marriage feast with the 5 wise virgins because they were carnal believes. Nor would they be raptured at the first rapture if they were alive at that time.
True readiness is faith that works by the use of agape love (1 Thess. 5:6-8). Those who sleep in Jesus refers to their dead bodies sleeping in Jesus, but their spirits are the spirits of just men made perfect and very much alive in the presence of God (these is no such thing as a perfect dead spirit!). Therefore you do error in thinking that martyrs are raptured at the beginning of the Tribulation--conversely, they're spirits never die (John 11:26), and are immediately in the presence of the Lord upon their death--alive and cognizant!You are not a spirit being but a soulical being. Angels are spirits. Men are souls. You are living soul with a spirit and a body. Your spirit can't flinging off apart from your body and soul. To be a fully functioning being you need a soul with a mind, will and emotion and a spirit with the functions of intuition, communion and conscience. To function you need both self-consciousness of your soul and God-consciousness of your spirit. When God created man, He directly created man's spirit and when it made contact with the body, man became a living soul. Your spirit can be taken up to see a vision, but not while you are asleep waiting to be resurrected. That would be silly.
You are not alive in Christ when you go to sleep, but must wait to comfort one another to be resurrected together (1 Thess. 4.18). It's quite like turning your computer off, all is saved, and when it is turned on again the software works again. Don't think there are millions of souls in heaven for many centuries. There is not even one. I have no idea what a dead perfect spirit is you are talking about, but if you are unsaved your spirit is dead to God and needs to be regenerated with His life. Since the martyrs in the 5th Seal are before the Trumpets of the Tribulation, of course they are raptured before the Tribulation as they are given white robes.
John 11.26 says those who are saved will never perish, that is, go to Hell. It does not say we don't go to sleep awaiting to be resurrected. Many Scriptures talk about when a person dies they go to sleep. The unsaved or rest of the dead and resurrected 1000 years after the saints. Just like the repentant thief was told he would see Jesus this day, it was in paradise below (figuratively of course since there is no conscious awareness in soul sleep), not above since Jesus that day went to the good side of Hades below, the place of timeless unawares or soul sleep.
Hope this helps. By the way I still think it is wrong for you to highjack the word "partial rapture" and change its meaning to something totally unrelatede because in seminaries and eschatological studies, "partial rapture" always refers to the first rapture according to readiness (Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10). Another name for "partial rapture" is "separate rapture." You can use these two words interchangeablely.