Finestwheat
07-25-2011, 04:25 PM
Re: Firesword @ gracecentered.com forums
(1) 24 is not the number of the church; only seven or multiples of seven are, such as the seven churches in Asia.
12 apostles + 12 leaders of the tribe of Israel = 24
The 12 gates of new Jerusalem have the tribe elders name on them
The last mention of the 24 Elders in the Bible is in Rev. 19.4. No mention of the Elders past that, demoting their role and placed under men. "And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia." Angels, including the 24 archangels-the eldest angels of the universe-take a subservient role to men.
"And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel" (Rev. 21.12). No mention of the gates with the names of Elders on them. Never are the 12 tribes called Elders, nor is the Church ever called Elders.
(2) Nowhere in the Scriptures does “elder” ever represent the church. There are elders in the church and among the Jews, but not all believers are elders. God first created the angels, then He chose the Jews, and finally gave grace to the church. How can the church bear the title of elders?
No where in scripture are angels called elders. But they are used to refer to church leaders.
Church leaders of a locality are Elders but not the whole Church. So Elders of the universe can't be the Church. They would then be the 24 archangels. One of those archangels fell who was Lucifer. Only one archangel is ever mentioned in the Bible who is Michael. Naturally, Michael replaced one of the 24 just as Matthias replaced Judas.
(3) In Revelation 4 and 5 we learn that the elders sit on thrones with crowns of gold on their heads, whereas Christ is standing there. Can the church receive glory before Christ is glorified? Thrones and crowns are symbols of kingship.
Christ is the lamb and is the only one worthy to open the seals. The elders are not worthy. Despite their crowns.
The letters to the churches show that Christ promises crowns to them who overcome. There are many crowns and rewards .e.g crown of rightoeusness, crown of life.
If the elders are the Church they are not qualified to open the seals. If the elders are the archangels they are not qualified to open the seals either. So how is that an argument for the elders being the Church? You didn't address the point. The point was that Jesus is still standing when those wearing crowns are sitting in Rev. 4. While archangels can be seen as sitting being the Elders of the universe, it wouldn't make much sense if the Church was sitting while Jesus was still standing and has yet to war against the Antichrist. The eldest Elders of the universe have kingship (they have been ruling over the universe with the Lord's authority for billions of years), but the Church has not received kingship as yet.
(4) The elders are clothed with white garments. Some suggest that these garments speak of Christ our righteousness for His blood has washed them white. Yet nowhere in the Scriptures is there mention made that the garments of the elders are washed with the blood. Our robes need to be washed with blood because we have sinned; but the 24 elders have never sinned.
Joshua the high priest receives a new garment of white, in the old testament.
The 24 elders are just as sinful as the rest of us. Because they are human beings. Otherwise why are they wearing white garments? Who else wears white garments but the glorified saints?
White garments speak of purity. Joshua's Levites sprinkled blood on the objects in the Temple to receive white garments. The 24 archangels have never sinned which agrees with the fact their robes are never washed by the precious blood. Don't assume they are humans then draw a conclusion. Who else than the saints wear white garments but the 24 archangels?
(5) The elders never experience redemption. In chapter 4 we observe that they sing the song of creation. And we see in chapter 5 that though they sing the song of redemption, they sing not of themselves but of men who are purchased by the blood of the Lamb. “And madest them to be . ... ,,(v.10) - The word “them” here refers to the church. Now if it is the church who sings, would she use “them”?
So they do sing the song of redemption.
9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Again to clarify rev1
5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Almost every Bible uses word "them" or some variant in Rev. 5.9,10. Only KJV says "us" which is a false rendering leading to pride and self-exaltation. This is the problem of being a KJV Onlyist. They are not praising themselves, but praising others. Let us not pray for ourselves as to focus on self, but pray for others selflessly. Then we shall see our reward. Notice in Rev. 1.5,6 "us" is mentioned because He has "washed us from our sins in his own blood" whereas the archangels have garments that are not washed by the blood so no mention of being washed by the blood, and thus, they can't be praising themselves. The saints themselves don't take up the prayers of the saints, but it is the archangels, 4 creatures and angels that take up the prayers of the saints: "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Rev. 5.8). How can the Church and Old Testament Saints be Elders when it says right here the Elders take up the prayers of the saints? Saints don't take up prayers of the saints. Again, selfishly, taking up one's own prayers will never do nor praying for one's own self relying on self-strength to take up one's own prayers.
(6) Revelation 4 deals with the universe and not with the church, the nations, or the Jews. And hence we may say that these are the elders of the universe, The church is not an elder of the universe.
She might be though. She is the lambs wife. One guy asked Jesus to sit on His right hand. Jesus replied it is not mine to give. Thus it shows there is indeed a position to sit on the throne with God himself the ruler of the universe.
But nevertheless, please show me how you come to this conclusion, that the elders rule the universe?
Since they sing we are kings and priest unto our God and rule upon the Earth.
The lamb's wife is is not the wife yet, for she is still a bride. Who but Satan would ask Jesus to sit on his right hand? Jesus sits on the right hand of the Father. God Himself is the ruler of the universe with His Son and the 24 archangels. Who was first created by God? The angels. Naturally, as there is authority in submission as in all things so it is with the angels- necessitating the 24 archangels. 24 is a number that represents administration as in th 24 courses. It is a grave mistake to take due honor before honor is due. Christians are not kings and priests yet, for we do not yet rule with a "rod of iron" with the Lord over the nations as is given to only some Christians since only some believers are overcomers to be able to enter the 1000 year reign. This does not occur until after the the Tribulation-after which begins the 1000 year reign (Rev. 20.4-6). Out of pride you place the cart before the horse, praising self. That will never do in God's kingdom.
(7) Revelation 5.8. The church cannot bring people’s prayers to God.
Neither do angels. But look and see
Rev8
3And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
You admit the Church can't take up the prayers of the saints, therefore, you would have to admit the 24 elders are not the Church. Therefore, you are wrong and should not maintain your doubletongue" (1 Tim. 3.8). You quoted Rev. 8.3 another angel taking up the prayers of the saints just as the angels do in Rev. 5.8. What a strange thing you have done to try to make your case. You quoted Rev. 8.3-5 without any commentary on your part to say angels don't take up prayers of the saints, but it says right there, "another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne" (Rev. 8.3). So while angels and Jesus can take up the prayers of the saints, certainly saints can't take up their own prayers. Jesus should never be considered as the 24 Elders or one of the 4 creatures in Rev. 5.8.
8.3 "And another angel"—This "another angel" is a priest, hence he must be the Lord Jesus. The prayers of all the saints ascend to God through the incense offered by this angel. No Christian can offer up prayer except by means of incense, which signifies the merits of Christ. Through the sweet savor of Christ a believer’s prayer reaches before God. Let us not debase the Lord Jesus Christ.
Why is the Lord called an "angel" and not a priest here? Hebrews states: "For verily not to angels doth he [Christ] give help" (Heb. 2.16). When the New Testament epistles mention the Lord’s relationship with us they always describe Him as man. "Wherefore it behooved him in all things to be made like unto his brethren" (Heb. 2.17). Because He is man, therefore He is closer to mankind. The angels are made a little higher than men. In Genesis 18.2,16, and 22 the word "men" is used to show their closeness to Abraham. Genesis 19.1 uses the word "angels" to distinguish them from ordinary men; yet in Genesis 19.10,12, and 16 the word "men" is used again for they were helping Lot. The reason why in Revelation 8.3 the Lord is designated as an angel is to indicate the changing of time. He is no longer the Son of man in the gospel age. He has now become another angel though still a priest.
(8) Revelation 7.13 If John also represents the church, it would then be the church asking the church.
9) John calls one of the elders “My lord” (7.14), thus indicating that his position is lower than the elders. If the 24 elders represent the church, then John who is among the first in the church, should be the elder of the elders.
Many people called Abraham their lord and the prophets.
3And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
He calls him sir in kjv version. Also he says you knowest. Perhaps it is hinting here that the elder knows, because they are his brothers of the faith.
Abraham is their lord and prophet, but would the church be John's elder? John has the highest standing in the Church. To address one of the archangels as sir makes sense being one of the eldest elders of the universe. I would give respect to that. John calls him Sir in the other major Bible versions so how does that distinguish the KJV? Just as the Elders praised the saints in Rev. 5 for being washed by the blood so such knowledge of the saints is found here in Rev. 7. They can only praise the elect, all who have been washed by the precious blood out of the tribulations so great the past 20 centuries (8.14).
"And they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (7.14b). "Robes" is in plural number, and these robes signify righteousnesses, even the righteousnesses of the saints. They do not refer to the Lord Jesus Christ as our righteousness. Indeed, the robe (singular) is righteousness (Is. 61.10), and it is the Lord himself (Jer. 23.6), for Christ is our righteousness (1 Cor. 1.30). We are clothed with Him as we come before God. But this righteousness is pertaining the work of the saints.
We have two robes: the one we are clothed with when we are saved, by which we stand before God; the other is our own righteousnesses—even our victories—in which we may stand before Christ. The white garments spoken of in Revelation 3.18 require a price, whereas redemption is that which need not be bought. "His wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints" (Rev. 19.8).
No Christian will be judged and condemned before God (John 5.24); but no Christian will be exempt from having to stand and be judged before the judgment seat of Christ according to what he has done (2 Cor. 5.10).
Believers’ robes are washed clean, yet not because of the great tribulation these past 20 centuries but because of the blood of the Lamb.
The very fact that the robes of the saints are washed in the blood of the Lamb shows how they once were defiled on earth yet they have followed the instruction of 1 John 1.9, and thus they are cleansed.
The Elders of the universe have no need of this nor would it even be available because the atonement on the cross was for men not for angels.
The overcomers in Rev. 7.9-17 are related to the overcomers in Rev. 12.1-11 with many points in common I will leave you to compare here, http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Revelation_7.htm
(10) The number 24 should be taken literally, not symbolically. Since one of the elders speaks to John, how can one twenty-fourth of the church talk to John? The number is fixed, and hence the elders are fixed. These 24 elders are archangels who rule the universe. Even under Satan in his domain there are principalities and authorities.
24 literal leaders. 12 apostles and 12 Israelites. The rest of the those who are raptured are around the elders. John sees them as angels. At the end of the book John bows before an angel, but the angel reveals himself as a fellow saint a brother of the faith who keeps the word of the book. So could it be that John mistakes these angels around the throne as being angels also? when in fact they are the saints, the 10 thousand times ten thousand who execute judgment upon the ungodly, prophecied by Enoch in Judes book.
rev4
11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
As we have seen the saints can't take up the prayers of the saints so the 24 elders can't be the 12 Apostles nor the 12 tribes of Israel or 12 men of Israel. The 24 elders are individual beings-archangels no less. John was only taken up in spirit to see the vision in Rev. 4. Whereas the rapture and resurrection of the saints is bodily also. Who are around the elders? Just the creatures, later the angels then later men. "And round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind" (Rev. 4.6). Where is the mention of the Church and Old Testament saints in Re. 4.6?
When John fell at his feet Rev. 19.10 to the angel, it doesn't say in the passage that this angel is a man, for we read, "And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" (Rev. 19.9-10). Does it make sense John would fall to his feet to himself if he is one of the 24 elders? None of the saints are even raptured yet, for we are raptured together at the end of this age which gives us comfort (1 Thess. 4.18). The angel rightly corrects John that he is to bow to no man nor angel but God. All angels not fallen and all men who are saved are God's servants even brethren. To exclude any of them is a grave mistake. These angels have been working hard for the body of Christ a long time now for the redemption of men. Surely, they earn the right to be called servants and brethren.
"Blessed art they" agrees with "them" in Rev. 5.9,10 of the angels praising men. Jude 14,15 says only 10,000 return with Jesus to execute judgment, not 10,000 times 10,000. Did John err? Of course not. He knows who the Church is and who the Elders are; even so, he should not bow down before an angel in humbling himself before an angel. If he confused the angel of being a man which man would that be? James, Peter? Who? No. The saints are not resurrected yet. The saints are resurrected together at the end of this age so he is not having a conversation with an imaginary future Apostle that hasn't been resurrected yet, but an angel even one of the 24 archangels as before. It is the overcomers out of the Church he is informed about by the angel back in Rev. 7 he receives further revelation on; that is to say, only a fraction of believers will return with Christ to reign during the 1000 years. 100 million are the angels around the 24 elders but surely more than 100 million will be saved among men. Your numbers don't add up. If what you say is true then 100 million/approx. 300 billion souls from Adam to the end of the 1000 years = 1 in 3,000 people saved. That is not realistic. Surely God can do better than that. 100 million people is too sparse an amount for the New City 1379 x 1379 miles.
Automatically you can realize you are wrong about Rev. 5.11 (you said 4.11 mistakenly), for John would not make such a mistake in thinking they are the Church. He knows who the Church is. He is a highest member of the Church. The Church is no mystery to John. The reason there are no people around the throne yet in Rev. 5.11 is because, obviously, rapture has not taken place yet, not till "before the throne" at Rev. 7.9 in 3rd heaven. The signs before this takes places is Rev. 6.12: a unique earthquake, a unique solar eclipse and a unique lunar eclipse in that order. Check NASA and a Jewish calendar, and you will see the Tribulation is Sept. 14, 2015 to Aug. 7, 2022 since only this date fits the 2,520 days attached to the Tetrad.
Again the number ten is used with Jude
14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Now see this the elders sing this song.
9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Out of which country?
Israel?
You see the elders all come from Israel. All the disciples and all the 12 tribes are Israel. But these sing a song and say they were redeemed from every kindred, and tongue and people and nation. Not just Israel, you see.
This is the song they sing. Because they are gentiles and Israelites and both are raptured into the throne room before the horsemen are released. They are the faithful Church.
The horsemen in Rev. 6 are the past 20 centuries since they are general in nature, and seals are opened secretly in this mystery age the Church. Would Jesus wait 2000 years to begin opening the seals while He is holding the scroll in Rev. 5? Of course not! Hence, the 1st Seal is the bow and arrow that looks like a cross giving Satan a deadly wound by the cross since the arrow has been shot nearly 2000 years ago. He is the same rider as in Revelation 19. God would not confuse the two.
Remember, the prayers of the saints can't be taken up by the saints. This fact alone makes your position impossible. No further discussion is needed which renders you idea false.
rev
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
You say the rapture happens after the seals are opened.
The problem is that when this even happens, above. This signals the end of the great tribulation and enters the vial judgment wrath of God. In the gospel Jesus shows that when the moon turns blood red , he will gather all the saints, dead included, not just a few. The great harvest that Jesus spoke of in his parable of gathering his elect from all corners of the earth.
No. Rev. 6.12 occurs before the first trumpet of the Tribulation is blown (8.7). Rev. 8.13 then says after the first 4 trumpets are blown-the first half of the Tribulation-then there will be 3 more trumpets which are the 3 woes. Rev. 9 says the 1st woe is 5 months, the 2nd woe is 13 months, leaving the 7th woe to be 24 months. It is in these last 24 months that the bowls of wrath are poured out. It helps to put in context like how Gen. 2 gives the details of Gen. 1, Rev. chapters 12 to 19 give the details of the major points of the Tribulation from chapters 7 to 11.
You also disagree with Joel 2.30-31 that says these signs in the cosmos and earthquake occur before the great and terrible day of the Lord, not after. There are thus, two sets of signs before and after, except the actual unique solar eclipse and red blood moon occur before very specifically so we know when the Tribulation begins. "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come." The gathering of the elect in Matt. 24.29-31 is talking about signs in the heavens also, but no specific solar eclipse or red blood moon, and only the gathering of the Jews since they were dispersed in the Great Tribulation for 1260 days. Matt. 24.4-31 pertains to the Jews and Israel, Matt. 24.32-25.30 deal with the Church, and Matt. 25.31-46 are regarding the nations. God always keeps in view these three groups. Many detailed proofs establish this fact as certain, http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Matthew_24.htm
Remind yourself of the cosmic events and earthquake (Rev. 6.12) occuring before the Tribulation and those after the Tribulation (Matt. 24.29,31, Rev. 11.19, 16.18) as demarcating the full 7 year Tribulation from beginning to end-with signs before and signs after. Therefore, there would be no contradiction with Joel 2 and Luke 21.25.
No saint will suffer the wrath of God, only the ungodly. There might be a remnant of flesh people who are saved/spared by God in order to repopulate the Earth, just as he did with Noahs ark, he saved animals to preserve the species. He will also save the human race by sparing a remnant. So he cuts the days short, otherwise no flesh would be saved.
Just because a saint was killed in the Smyrna church period in the 2nd century and God's wrath existed against unrighteousness, doesn't mean God's wrath is upon that person. Likewise, just because God's wrath increases at the beginning of the Tribulation and intensifies in the second half called the Great Tribulation is no reason to think the wrath of God is on the saint if the saint had to pass through that time of testing. Even so, after the first rapture according to readiness (Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10 at 7.9 "before the throne") those who are "alive" and "left" (1 Thess. 4.14-18) at the start of the last trumpet (Rev. 11.15, 15.2-4)-which is hte 7th trumpet-will be raptured with those who are resurrected so as not to enter the period of the bowls of wrath that follow for the next 24 months. Howeover, we should not rule out people can be saved during the gleaning period also that runs for 24 months. The Church remains on earth, for how evil that would be for a child who is no longer under the age of accountability and gives her life to Christ yet there is no Church for her to fellowship with. What love is that? After Jesus judges the nations when He returns and destroys the evil nations, a person if he is to be saved still must believe in Christ individually, except there is no longer being born-again into the Church, nor baptism out of this world since Satan is no longer god of this world during the millennium; and it is not just the Church but all saints since Adam out which those who overcometh will get to reign during the 1000 years (Rev. 20.4-6).
Noah's ark has to do with those who are saved who pass through the Tribulation, whereas Enoch was raptured beforehand. In the flood there were still people on earth, for the flood was just a local flood. There were still animals around the world, but the local animals were a remnant who were "alive" and "left" in the ark.
(1) 24 is not the number of the church; only seven or multiples of seven are, such as the seven churches in Asia.
12 apostles + 12 leaders of the tribe of Israel = 24
The 12 gates of new Jerusalem have the tribe elders name on them
The last mention of the 24 Elders in the Bible is in Rev. 19.4. No mention of the Elders past that, demoting their role and placed under men. "And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia." Angels, including the 24 archangels-the eldest angels of the universe-take a subservient role to men.
"And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel" (Rev. 21.12). No mention of the gates with the names of Elders on them. Never are the 12 tribes called Elders, nor is the Church ever called Elders.
(2) Nowhere in the Scriptures does “elder” ever represent the church. There are elders in the church and among the Jews, but not all believers are elders. God first created the angels, then He chose the Jews, and finally gave grace to the church. How can the church bear the title of elders?
No where in scripture are angels called elders. But they are used to refer to church leaders.
Church leaders of a locality are Elders but not the whole Church. So Elders of the universe can't be the Church. They would then be the 24 archangels. One of those archangels fell who was Lucifer. Only one archangel is ever mentioned in the Bible who is Michael. Naturally, Michael replaced one of the 24 just as Matthias replaced Judas.
(3) In Revelation 4 and 5 we learn that the elders sit on thrones with crowns of gold on their heads, whereas Christ is standing there. Can the church receive glory before Christ is glorified? Thrones and crowns are symbols of kingship.
Christ is the lamb and is the only one worthy to open the seals. The elders are not worthy. Despite their crowns.
The letters to the churches show that Christ promises crowns to them who overcome. There are many crowns and rewards .e.g crown of rightoeusness, crown of life.
If the elders are the Church they are not qualified to open the seals. If the elders are the archangels they are not qualified to open the seals either. So how is that an argument for the elders being the Church? You didn't address the point. The point was that Jesus is still standing when those wearing crowns are sitting in Rev. 4. While archangels can be seen as sitting being the Elders of the universe, it wouldn't make much sense if the Church was sitting while Jesus was still standing and has yet to war against the Antichrist. The eldest Elders of the universe have kingship (they have been ruling over the universe with the Lord's authority for billions of years), but the Church has not received kingship as yet.
(4) The elders are clothed with white garments. Some suggest that these garments speak of Christ our righteousness for His blood has washed them white. Yet nowhere in the Scriptures is there mention made that the garments of the elders are washed with the blood. Our robes need to be washed with blood because we have sinned; but the 24 elders have never sinned.
Joshua the high priest receives a new garment of white, in the old testament.
The 24 elders are just as sinful as the rest of us. Because they are human beings. Otherwise why are they wearing white garments? Who else wears white garments but the glorified saints?
White garments speak of purity. Joshua's Levites sprinkled blood on the objects in the Temple to receive white garments. The 24 archangels have never sinned which agrees with the fact their robes are never washed by the precious blood. Don't assume they are humans then draw a conclusion. Who else than the saints wear white garments but the 24 archangels?
(5) The elders never experience redemption. In chapter 4 we observe that they sing the song of creation. And we see in chapter 5 that though they sing the song of redemption, they sing not of themselves but of men who are purchased by the blood of the Lamb. “And madest them to be . ... ,,(v.10) - The word “them” here refers to the church. Now if it is the church who sings, would she use “them”?
So they do sing the song of redemption.
9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Again to clarify rev1
5And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
6And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
Almost every Bible uses word "them" or some variant in Rev. 5.9,10. Only KJV says "us" which is a false rendering leading to pride and self-exaltation. This is the problem of being a KJV Onlyist. They are not praising themselves, but praising others. Let us not pray for ourselves as to focus on self, but pray for others selflessly. Then we shall see our reward. Notice in Rev. 1.5,6 "us" is mentioned because He has "washed us from our sins in his own blood" whereas the archangels have garments that are not washed by the blood so no mention of being washed by the blood, and thus, they can't be praising themselves. The saints themselves don't take up the prayers of the saints, but it is the archangels, 4 creatures and angels that take up the prayers of the saints: "And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints" (Rev. 5.8). How can the Church and Old Testament Saints be Elders when it says right here the Elders take up the prayers of the saints? Saints don't take up prayers of the saints. Again, selfishly, taking up one's own prayers will never do nor praying for one's own self relying on self-strength to take up one's own prayers.
(6) Revelation 4 deals with the universe and not with the church, the nations, or the Jews. And hence we may say that these are the elders of the universe, The church is not an elder of the universe.
She might be though. She is the lambs wife. One guy asked Jesus to sit on His right hand. Jesus replied it is not mine to give. Thus it shows there is indeed a position to sit on the throne with God himself the ruler of the universe.
But nevertheless, please show me how you come to this conclusion, that the elders rule the universe?
Since they sing we are kings and priest unto our God and rule upon the Earth.
The lamb's wife is is not the wife yet, for she is still a bride. Who but Satan would ask Jesus to sit on his right hand? Jesus sits on the right hand of the Father. God Himself is the ruler of the universe with His Son and the 24 archangels. Who was first created by God? The angels. Naturally, as there is authority in submission as in all things so it is with the angels- necessitating the 24 archangels. 24 is a number that represents administration as in th 24 courses. It is a grave mistake to take due honor before honor is due. Christians are not kings and priests yet, for we do not yet rule with a "rod of iron" with the Lord over the nations as is given to only some Christians since only some believers are overcomers to be able to enter the 1000 year reign. This does not occur until after the the Tribulation-after which begins the 1000 year reign (Rev. 20.4-6). Out of pride you place the cart before the horse, praising self. That will never do in God's kingdom.
(7) Revelation 5.8. The church cannot bring people’s prayers to God.
Neither do angels. But look and see
Rev8
3And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
You admit the Church can't take up the prayers of the saints, therefore, you would have to admit the 24 elders are not the Church. Therefore, you are wrong and should not maintain your doubletongue" (1 Tim. 3.8). You quoted Rev. 8.3 another angel taking up the prayers of the saints just as the angels do in Rev. 5.8. What a strange thing you have done to try to make your case. You quoted Rev. 8.3-5 without any commentary on your part to say angels don't take up prayers of the saints, but it says right there, "another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne" (Rev. 8.3). So while angels and Jesus can take up the prayers of the saints, certainly saints can't take up their own prayers. Jesus should never be considered as the 24 Elders or one of the 4 creatures in Rev. 5.8.
8.3 "And another angel"—This "another angel" is a priest, hence he must be the Lord Jesus. The prayers of all the saints ascend to God through the incense offered by this angel. No Christian can offer up prayer except by means of incense, which signifies the merits of Christ. Through the sweet savor of Christ a believer’s prayer reaches before God. Let us not debase the Lord Jesus Christ.
Why is the Lord called an "angel" and not a priest here? Hebrews states: "For verily not to angels doth he [Christ] give help" (Heb. 2.16). When the New Testament epistles mention the Lord’s relationship with us they always describe Him as man. "Wherefore it behooved him in all things to be made like unto his brethren" (Heb. 2.17). Because He is man, therefore He is closer to mankind. The angels are made a little higher than men. In Genesis 18.2,16, and 22 the word "men" is used to show their closeness to Abraham. Genesis 19.1 uses the word "angels" to distinguish them from ordinary men; yet in Genesis 19.10,12, and 16 the word "men" is used again for they were helping Lot. The reason why in Revelation 8.3 the Lord is designated as an angel is to indicate the changing of time. He is no longer the Son of man in the gospel age. He has now become another angel though still a priest.
(8) Revelation 7.13 If John also represents the church, it would then be the church asking the church.
9) John calls one of the elders “My lord” (7.14), thus indicating that his position is lower than the elders. If the 24 elders represent the church, then John who is among the first in the church, should be the elder of the elders.
Many people called Abraham their lord and the prophets.
3And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
He calls him sir in kjv version. Also he says you knowest. Perhaps it is hinting here that the elder knows, because they are his brothers of the faith.
Abraham is their lord and prophet, but would the church be John's elder? John has the highest standing in the Church. To address one of the archangels as sir makes sense being one of the eldest elders of the universe. I would give respect to that. John calls him Sir in the other major Bible versions so how does that distinguish the KJV? Just as the Elders praised the saints in Rev. 5 for being washed by the blood so such knowledge of the saints is found here in Rev. 7. They can only praise the elect, all who have been washed by the precious blood out of the tribulations so great the past 20 centuries (8.14).
"And they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (7.14b). "Robes" is in plural number, and these robes signify righteousnesses, even the righteousnesses of the saints. They do not refer to the Lord Jesus Christ as our righteousness. Indeed, the robe (singular) is righteousness (Is. 61.10), and it is the Lord himself (Jer. 23.6), for Christ is our righteousness (1 Cor. 1.30). We are clothed with Him as we come before God. But this righteousness is pertaining the work of the saints.
We have two robes: the one we are clothed with when we are saved, by which we stand before God; the other is our own righteousnesses—even our victories—in which we may stand before Christ. The white garments spoken of in Revelation 3.18 require a price, whereas redemption is that which need not be bought. "His wife hath made herself ready. And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints" (Rev. 19.8).
No Christian will be judged and condemned before God (John 5.24); but no Christian will be exempt from having to stand and be judged before the judgment seat of Christ according to what he has done (2 Cor. 5.10).
Believers’ robes are washed clean, yet not because of the great tribulation these past 20 centuries but because of the blood of the Lamb.
The very fact that the robes of the saints are washed in the blood of the Lamb shows how they once were defiled on earth yet they have followed the instruction of 1 John 1.9, and thus they are cleansed.
The Elders of the universe have no need of this nor would it even be available because the atonement on the cross was for men not for angels.
The overcomers in Rev. 7.9-17 are related to the overcomers in Rev. 12.1-11 with many points in common I will leave you to compare here, http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Revelation_7.htm
(10) The number 24 should be taken literally, not symbolically. Since one of the elders speaks to John, how can one twenty-fourth of the church talk to John? The number is fixed, and hence the elders are fixed. These 24 elders are archangels who rule the universe. Even under Satan in his domain there are principalities and authorities.
24 literal leaders. 12 apostles and 12 Israelites. The rest of the those who are raptured are around the elders. John sees them as angels. At the end of the book John bows before an angel, but the angel reveals himself as a fellow saint a brother of the faith who keeps the word of the book. So could it be that John mistakes these angels around the throne as being angels also? when in fact they are the saints, the 10 thousand times ten thousand who execute judgment upon the ungodly, prophecied by Enoch in Judes book.
rev4
11And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;
As we have seen the saints can't take up the prayers of the saints so the 24 elders can't be the 12 Apostles nor the 12 tribes of Israel or 12 men of Israel. The 24 elders are individual beings-archangels no less. John was only taken up in spirit to see the vision in Rev. 4. Whereas the rapture and resurrection of the saints is bodily also. Who are around the elders? Just the creatures, later the angels then later men. "And round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind" (Rev. 4.6). Where is the mention of the Church and Old Testament saints in Re. 4.6?
When John fell at his feet Rev. 19.10 to the angel, it doesn't say in the passage that this angel is a man, for we read, "And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See [thou do it] not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy" (Rev. 19.9-10). Does it make sense John would fall to his feet to himself if he is one of the 24 elders? None of the saints are even raptured yet, for we are raptured together at the end of this age which gives us comfort (1 Thess. 4.18). The angel rightly corrects John that he is to bow to no man nor angel but God. All angels not fallen and all men who are saved are God's servants even brethren. To exclude any of them is a grave mistake. These angels have been working hard for the body of Christ a long time now for the redemption of men. Surely, they earn the right to be called servants and brethren.
"Blessed art they" agrees with "them" in Rev. 5.9,10 of the angels praising men. Jude 14,15 says only 10,000 return with Jesus to execute judgment, not 10,000 times 10,000. Did John err? Of course not. He knows who the Church is and who the Elders are; even so, he should not bow down before an angel in humbling himself before an angel. If he confused the angel of being a man which man would that be? James, Peter? Who? No. The saints are not resurrected yet. The saints are resurrected together at the end of this age so he is not having a conversation with an imaginary future Apostle that hasn't been resurrected yet, but an angel even one of the 24 archangels as before. It is the overcomers out of the Church he is informed about by the angel back in Rev. 7 he receives further revelation on; that is to say, only a fraction of believers will return with Christ to reign during the 1000 years. 100 million are the angels around the 24 elders but surely more than 100 million will be saved among men. Your numbers don't add up. If what you say is true then 100 million/approx. 300 billion souls from Adam to the end of the 1000 years = 1 in 3,000 people saved. That is not realistic. Surely God can do better than that. 100 million people is too sparse an amount for the New City 1379 x 1379 miles.
Automatically you can realize you are wrong about Rev. 5.11 (you said 4.11 mistakenly), for John would not make such a mistake in thinking they are the Church. He knows who the Church is. He is a highest member of the Church. The Church is no mystery to John. The reason there are no people around the throne yet in Rev. 5.11 is because, obviously, rapture has not taken place yet, not till "before the throne" at Rev. 7.9 in 3rd heaven. The signs before this takes places is Rev. 6.12: a unique earthquake, a unique solar eclipse and a unique lunar eclipse in that order. Check NASA and a Jewish calendar, and you will see the Tribulation is Sept. 14, 2015 to Aug. 7, 2022 since only this date fits the 2,520 days attached to the Tetrad.
Again the number ten is used with Jude
14And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
15To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
Now see this the elders sing this song.
9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
Out of which country?
Israel?
You see the elders all come from Israel. All the disciples and all the 12 tribes are Israel. But these sing a song and say they were redeemed from every kindred, and tongue and people and nation. Not just Israel, you see.
This is the song they sing. Because they are gentiles and Israelites and both are raptured into the throne room before the horsemen are released. They are the faithful Church.
The horsemen in Rev. 6 are the past 20 centuries since they are general in nature, and seals are opened secretly in this mystery age the Church. Would Jesus wait 2000 years to begin opening the seals while He is holding the scroll in Rev. 5? Of course not! Hence, the 1st Seal is the bow and arrow that looks like a cross giving Satan a deadly wound by the cross since the arrow has been shot nearly 2000 years ago. He is the same rider as in Revelation 19. God would not confuse the two.
Remember, the prayers of the saints can't be taken up by the saints. This fact alone makes your position impossible. No further discussion is needed which renders you idea false.
rev
12And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
You say the rapture happens after the seals are opened.
The problem is that when this even happens, above. This signals the end of the great tribulation and enters the vial judgment wrath of God. In the gospel Jesus shows that when the moon turns blood red , he will gather all the saints, dead included, not just a few. The great harvest that Jesus spoke of in his parable of gathering his elect from all corners of the earth.
No. Rev. 6.12 occurs before the first trumpet of the Tribulation is blown (8.7). Rev. 8.13 then says after the first 4 trumpets are blown-the first half of the Tribulation-then there will be 3 more trumpets which are the 3 woes. Rev. 9 says the 1st woe is 5 months, the 2nd woe is 13 months, leaving the 7th woe to be 24 months. It is in these last 24 months that the bowls of wrath are poured out. It helps to put in context like how Gen. 2 gives the details of Gen. 1, Rev. chapters 12 to 19 give the details of the major points of the Tribulation from chapters 7 to 11.
You also disagree with Joel 2.30-31 that says these signs in the cosmos and earthquake occur before the great and terrible day of the Lord, not after. There are thus, two sets of signs before and after, except the actual unique solar eclipse and red blood moon occur before very specifically so we know when the Tribulation begins. "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come." The gathering of the elect in Matt. 24.29-31 is talking about signs in the heavens also, but no specific solar eclipse or red blood moon, and only the gathering of the Jews since they were dispersed in the Great Tribulation for 1260 days. Matt. 24.4-31 pertains to the Jews and Israel, Matt. 24.32-25.30 deal with the Church, and Matt. 25.31-46 are regarding the nations. God always keeps in view these three groups. Many detailed proofs establish this fact as certain, http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Matthew_24.htm
Remind yourself of the cosmic events and earthquake (Rev. 6.12) occuring before the Tribulation and those after the Tribulation (Matt. 24.29,31, Rev. 11.19, 16.18) as demarcating the full 7 year Tribulation from beginning to end-with signs before and signs after. Therefore, there would be no contradiction with Joel 2 and Luke 21.25.
No saint will suffer the wrath of God, only the ungodly. There might be a remnant of flesh people who are saved/spared by God in order to repopulate the Earth, just as he did with Noahs ark, he saved animals to preserve the species. He will also save the human race by sparing a remnant. So he cuts the days short, otherwise no flesh would be saved.
Just because a saint was killed in the Smyrna church period in the 2nd century and God's wrath existed against unrighteousness, doesn't mean God's wrath is upon that person. Likewise, just because God's wrath increases at the beginning of the Tribulation and intensifies in the second half called the Great Tribulation is no reason to think the wrath of God is on the saint if the saint had to pass through that time of testing. Even so, after the first rapture according to readiness (Matt. 24.40-42, Luke 21.36, Rev. 3.10 at 7.9 "before the throne") those who are "alive" and "left" (1 Thess. 4.14-18) at the start of the last trumpet (Rev. 11.15, 15.2-4)-which is hte 7th trumpet-will be raptured with those who are resurrected so as not to enter the period of the bowls of wrath that follow for the next 24 months. Howeover, we should not rule out people can be saved during the gleaning period also that runs for 24 months. The Church remains on earth, for how evil that would be for a child who is no longer under the age of accountability and gives her life to Christ yet there is no Church for her to fellowship with. What love is that? After Jesus judges the nations when He returns and destroys the evil nations, a person if he is to be saved still must believe in Christ individually, except there is no longer being born-again into the Church, nor baptism out of this world since Satan is no longer god of this world during the millennium; and it is not just the Church but all saints since Adam out which those who overcometh will get to reign during the 1000 years (Rev. 20.4-6).
Noah's ark has to do with those who are saved who pass through the Tribulation, whereas Enoch was raptured beforehand. In the flood there were still people on earth, for the flood was just a local flood. There were still animals around the world, but the local animals were a remnant who were "alive" and "left" in the ark.