Are you Saved before You Believe or After?

Would God be righteous and holy if He were to save a person before they could believe and even though some people believe they can't be saved because God did not save them first? The Holy Spirit showed me that this is evil and that many in calvinism believe in this heresy.

Does God value the choice we make for Him afforded to us being made in His image because He wants to walk with those who choose His life who were drawn and received Him? This is a choice made not by the fleshly sin of the body or self of the soul, but by that free gift of being made in His image to come to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive Jesus as Lord and Savior TO BE SAVED? Even though everyone is made in His image, not everyone wants to be saved and that is their choice.

If you believe you were saved first before you could believe, does this mean that you were really not saved since God does not save you this way-as like a robot without conscience? What then is God's way of salvation? He predestinates by foreknowing (Rom. 8.29) our free-choice (Abel's free-will offering and John 3.16) made in His image (Gen. 1.26,27): a conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, for preservation of the saints (once-saved-always-saved).

So all those in the outward appearance of the kingdom of heaven (not all calvinists), not all of them are saved. Many are the tares (not all calvinists) who try to look like the saved wheat, but God has his sickle that he will apply at the right time.

Amen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by trane

Why would God need to pre-determine or decide beforehand something which He already sees coming to pass. What would God need to decree from eternity if it was going to happen without his decree? Why does God need to foreordain something he forsees happening anyway?

---

Romans 8.29 says first "For whom he did foreknow..." then "...he also did predestinate." God is not saying He decided beforehand so He decided beforehand. That would be redundant. He said He foreknows (ie beforehand) something and thus, He logs it or predestinates it to be so with His approval by decree. If predestination was the same thing as "foreknow" (KJV, Young, Webster) or "foreknew" (NKJV, NIV, ESV, NASB, RSV, ASV, HNV) or "foreknown" (Darby) or "in advance" (NLT), then God would not have said "he also did...".

First God foreknows then he predestinates. What does He foreknow to be able to predestinate? "That whosoever believeth in him" (John 3.16). He foreknows those who choose to believe to be saved to "have everlasting life" by God's grace.

Just like Abel's right offering: "LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering" (Gen. 4.4). God respects the free-choice offering so God predestinated Abel by foreknowing His free-choice. He is not saying here He respects Himself, but He "had respect unto Abel".

You can say what God foreknows in His holiness and righteousness, He approves and in so approving He logs it: predestinates it. It is now locked in since He approves of it with in His infinite foreknowledge. Once you foreknow something and you approve of it to predestinate it, you are "in the NT of God decreeing from eternity".

God would not predestinate something He foreknows that is not according to His holiness and righteounsess. But since all that He foreknows in His design He does approve; thus, He predestinates it (locks it in by declaring it).

It is one think to foreknow something, but that foreknowing of something could be unrighteous and unholy. Therefore, God assures us it is predestinated, that is, it is approved by decree according to His righteousness and holiness.

When you choose God you don't do something as in some act to be saved outside God's allowance, but it is a choice which God gives us all the right to from what God did in making us in His image. The right of choice is provided by God so He originates it to allow people to choose.

Romans 8:29 "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."
He foreknew them in the first earth age, and their success and love for Him. These are "the elect" of God, and in that first earth age God also predestinated them to be similar, or like the image of Jesus Christ [His son]. This is referring to the "only begotten Son of God" who died on the cross and arose again after the third day, and now sits on the right hand of the Father in heaven to be our advocate.
Remember back in verse [23], "And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body."
The "first fruits" of the Spirit are those that God will intercede in their lives to make these Scriptures come to pass. Both "the elect" and the "free will" Christians have the first fruits of the Spirit, when they are in the Will of God, and are in obedience to our heavenly Father.
God made some of His children similar in their compassion, like Jesus Christ had when He went to the cross. They care about those lost souls, and open themselves up to be used by the Father, and they strive to never be deceived by Satan. Though we might fall short at times, but spiritually we know that Satan is our adversary, and enemy.
Romans 8:30 "Moreover whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified , them He glorified."
God is telling you here why He "predestined" them, and how He could do this and yet still have it all be in fairness to God. When God predestinated a person, He also "called" that person. There is a difference between "called" and "chosen"; for many are called, but few are chosen. When God called one to do His work, He also judged [justified] that person at that time.
The time of the judging was in the first earth age, at the time of the overthrow of Satan, before the foundations of this flesh age were formed. It was at that time that the Father made those that were "predestinated", "called and judged" [called the elect] to have a similar compassion for lost souls as Christ had. In that first earth age they became the "Zadok" or "the just", or "Elect" of this earth age.
These same souls of the Zadok are of great importance in the Millennium age, as is detailed in Ezekiel 44. Of all the times of centuries past, this generation is probably in the most exciting of all times past. We are witnessing the completion of all of God's Word come to pass, as the end of this age comes to a close.
When we are justified it doesn't mean that we don't pay for our sins in the flesh, but when you have been justified the Holy Spirit can interfere in the elect's lives and cause them to make a change in the direction that they are going. Paul's mind was set on killing Christians, and God Will was to make him the teacher and writer for Him of His Holy Word. God interfered with Paul's life on the road to Damascus, and struck him down blind, and when Paul then listened to God's instructions, the Spirit of God changed Paul's direction to glorify God, and Jesus Christ.

That certain were chosen for 'certain' things is unmistakable in the Scriptures. Below is just a couple of Scriptures that definitely show that 'certain' were chosen (predestined) for certain things (fates). I wont supply Old Testament Scriptures as I feel that we can all agree that Israel was God's chosen there.

Jude 1:4-5
4 For there are certain men [not all men] crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this ['once knew this?' They (not all) knew it from before (before this eath age)], how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. (KJV)

Rev 17:14
14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful. [not everybody, He is speaking of those WITH Him] (KJV)

John 15:16
16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. [not everybody, He is speaking of the Disciples (and by extension, the Elect of the latter times)] (KJV)

I must hasten to add that since Christ's work on the cross, all can be adopted into eternal life through faith in Christ Jesus. However, 'certain' have been chosen, pre-selected by God, not to be more loved of God but to do a certain task in the end times in fulfillment of Scripture.

These are called the Elect of God. So then, that leads to natural question: Who are the Elect? Well, every single denominational group claims to be the Elect. The Catholics call themselves the one true Church, the Rapturists call themselves the saved 'saints,' the Mormons believe themselves to be the chosen of God, many cults believe themselves to be a special group of God's Elect. So why should I add to this confusion with an answer? other to say that God's Elect are those who know the truth about the identity of the antichrist in the final times (our generation).

But the main point is that while God's plan and prophecies MUST be fulfilled as prophesied, for "scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35), and the whole world shall worship the antichrist as it is written:

Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (KJV)

Only God's Elect (by His grace and purpose) shall resist the antichrist. That is not to say that all who UNWITTINGLY worship the wrong Christ are damned, for there is a certain degree of innocence in ignorance. And we are not fated on an individual level to be deceived, but many do not study to their own undoing. Nobody is born damned, they become that way by their own free will actions.

Yes, Christ's blood is able to save all, but not all shall be saved. There are qualifiers with all of God's promises:

John 3:15-18
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (KJV)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by n2thelight

Romans 8:29 "For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren."
He foreknew them in the first earth age, and their success and love for Him. These are "the elect" of God, and in that first earth age God also predestinated them to be similar, or like the image of Jesus Christ [His son]. This is referring to the "only begotten Son of God" who died on the cross and arose again after the third day, and now sits on the right hand of the Father in heaven to be our advocate.

---

God did not foreknow merely in the first earth age, but He foreknew before the foundations of the world.

Quote:

---

I must hasten to add that since Christ's work on the cross, all can be adopted into eternal life through faith in Christ Jesus. However, 'certain' have been chosen, pre-selected by God, not to be more loved of God but to do a certain task in the end times in fulfillment of Scripture.

These are called the Elect of God. So then, that leads to natural question: Who are the Elect? Well, every single denominational group claims to be the Elect. The Catholics call themselves the one true Church, the Rapturists call themselves the saved 'saints,' the Mormons believe themselves to be the chosen of God, many cults believe themselves to be a special group of God's Elect. So why should I add to this confusion with an answer? other to say that God's Elect are those who know the truth about the identity of the antichrist in the final times (our generation).

---

The elect are either the elect of Israel or the elect, meaning, all who are saved, that is, Christians in this dispensation. The term elect has been used in both senses. Elect does not refer to more spiritual or more worthy to do work. Those who are accounted worthy (Luke 21.36), those who are chosen, are those who "overcometh" in Rev. 2 & 3. All those in Rev. 2 & 3 in the churches are saved, but not all overcometh.

The RC is not the church, but it is the great harlot of religious Rome of Revelation 17 God warns us about, and it came about with the Thyatira church period. It makes drunk the nations with the wine of the wrath of her fornications (14.8). She was a mustard seed and grew into a great tree for birds like demons to sit upon. Mary was born into sin and I count at least 5 times she did sin in the Bible. Intermediary priesthood is not of God, nor is paying for indulgences and so many legalisms and judaizing with written codes that add to the 66 books of God's Word.

There is nothing wrong with believing in rapture, for Jesus was raptured and the Saints saw Him raised up. In order for the Saints to be before the throne in 3rd heaven (Rev. 7.9) or meet Christ in the air, they would need to be raptured. To reject rapture is to reject Christ being raised up. Anyone who is saved will be raptured. In fact all the unsaved will be raptured too, but after the millennium. God will annihilate no souls for all souls are made in God's image, and God never destroys His image.

Mormons are false of course since they believe God is gods of different substances rather than distinct, but not separate. This makes God very impersonal. It is polytheism to believe in 3 gods in the eternity of the past without questioning their origins. Christianity believes in one God who is one being.

The proper definition of the Elect are those who are saved. Period. Some of the elect will not be watchful, others will not. Those that are watchful will receive the reward.

Quote:

---

But the main point is that while God's plan and prophecies MUST be fulfilled as prophesied, for "scripture cannot be broken" (John 10:35), and the whole world shall worship the antichrist as it is written:

Rev 13:8
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (KJV)

Only God's Elect (by His grace and purpose) shall resist the antichrist. That is not to say that all who UNWITTINGLY worship the wrong Christ are damned, for there is a certain degree of innocence in ignorance. And we are not fated on an individual level to be deceived, but many do not study to their own undoing. Nobody is born damned, they become that way by their own free will actions.

---

Anyone who is saved is the elect. If someone is already saved and has eternal life they will refuse the mark of the beast. Because they have God's nature, they could never accept the mark in the Tribulation.

First, greetings to all, glad to be here to share my testimony of The Grace of God. Now I believe the bible teaches that the elect are saved according to Divine purpose before the world began and of course before they had the physical existence to believe !

Look at 2 tim 1 9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
10But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

The foundation of salvation Is Gods purpose and grace :yes:

Certainly God saves before the foundations of the world by foreknowing our free-choice, which is not works of course, and not by premaking us or preprogramming some to be saved and not others. The latter is the heresy of calvinism, while the former is osas arminian as indicated in Rom. 8.29 in this thread. You may be able to sense the arrogance and the pride in thinking one is just premade that way and without regard for our choice made in God's image. Christians can sense this is a heady salvation, not authentic life, for God wants to be with those who choose His life, not those who think they were that way already.

The Gospel or “good news” about Christ and salvation is not about what He is doing. The Gospel is about what Christ has done. The Gospel comes as an announcement to God’s people that those who believe this message are already part of of God’s kingdom. Those that believe were justified by Christ over 2000 years ago on the cross.

Jn 19:28, (KJV), After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

Jn 19:30, (KJV), When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Heb 9:12, (KJV), Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

1 Cor 15:3-4, (KJV), For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; (4) And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

That’s all there is to it! It’s a simple message and comes as “glad tidings” (Rom 10:15) to God’s chosen vessels of mercy (Rom 9:23). Christians look back to the cross of Christ for all of their salvation and nothing else. They do not look to any experience or any other event in their lives.

The Apostle Paul warned against anti-christs that would come and pervert this message with false gospels and was even fighting these awful messages during his ministry. Today, the warning of anti-christ has been realized and there are many false gospels. There are generally two prevailing characteristics amongst these false gospels. First, they all use “Gospel language”. Second, they all point to a real benefit of the cross as the basis of salvation. For example, one of the benefits of Christ’s death is the precious gift of faith which is given to Christ’s people for their assurance. It is how they come to rely and know of Christ’s atonement for them. But many people have made it the basis for salvation. Phrases such as: “you must be born again”, “you have to have faith”, “God loves you and wants to save you”, and “accept Christ as your personal savior” are generally dead giveaways that the person using this language is promoting a false gospel.

We must be on guard against confusing our experiences with the message of Christ. It is true that we must be born again in order to see the kingdom of God, but that is not the Gospel. Being born again is a result of Christ’s accomplished salvation – not the cause of it.

I for one take great joy in knowing that salvation is entirely outside of me and rejoice in the alien righteousness of my Lord Jesus Christ. I am content to know that His righteousness is mine simply by God’s Sovereign Grace. This truly is good news.

bel,

People are justified by faith today, not 2000 years ago (ie, you wrongly said "those that believe were justified by Christ over 2000 years ago on the cross"), for many were not yet born. Rather, people are saved by what Christ did 2000 years ago...it is finished!

The objective entrance into the new creation through new birth by receiving what Jesus did on the cross is made real through the subjective experience of the Holy Spirit bringing forth the work of the cross in Christian lives.

You have exposed your own unsalvation when you reject "you must be born-again," reject "you have to have faith," reject "God loves you and wants to save you," and reject the need to "accept Christ as your personal savior". Such doublespeak as saying it is wrong to say “you must be born again” and then say "it is true that we must be born again" shows your attempt to be cunning and couth. A Christian would never use such false doublespeaking "gospel language". Satan is the great confuser.

This shows very plainly you are promoting some false gospel as an antichrist; naturally, you pervert the gospel by demanding you don't have to choose Christ but think you were premade that way like a robot. So, you teach that you don't have to be born-again. Crazy stuff! The gift of faith is given to one who activates it; that is, they must authentically come to the cross to receive Christ, then God bestows the gift of faith and saves the person and daily increasing the believer's faith.

Being born-again is the gospel. The gospel is Jesus is uncreated deity, He died on the cross for our sins and He was resurrected; and in order to be saved (born-again) one must truly believe. How silly your statement was to say being born-again is the cause of Christ's death on the cross.

Salvation is in Christ and God requires something of you, though not of self, to come to the cross to be saved and receive Him. The god you worship is unrighteous because he teaches a false righteousness in claiming you were a premade robot for salvation without any regard first for your choice and that others had no choice, but were premade zombies for hell also. I trust readers can see how evil this god is that you worship!

You can see how heretical calvinism is.

Quote:

---

you were a premade robot for salvation without any regard first for your choice and that others had no choice, but were premade zombies for hell also. I trust readers can see how evil this god is that you worship!

You can see how heretical calvinism is.

---

You are ignorant to bible salvation and far as I can see reprobated. People may not be robots as you say, but I tell you what, every individual is like a piece of clay in the potters hand and they are created for whatever purpose he made them ! You can believe that!:yes:

Rom 9

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

bel,

You are not a Christian and thus seek to alter the salvation in the Bible. Yes, you are a reprobate.

Every person is made in God's image (Gen. 1.26,27) and the body was formed from dust (2.7). Since God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10.34), every person has an equal right to receive salvation.

God's purpose in creating us is to walk with those who would receive Him by their free-choice. You have made the free-choice for yourself not to be saved because you demand you are saved another way, by thinking you were a premade robot for salvation. God will never save a person with such pride!

Since you admit "people may not be robots," this proves calvinism is a lie of the unsaved tares, because calvinism teaches falsely that a person is totally deprave unable to choose to come to the cross as a helpless sinner and would need to be a robot preprogrammed for salvation in order to do so. Crazy stuff! And that means also that there would be humans created and designed just for hell without any regard for their choice. You ought to see how evil this idea is of calvinism and why you are such a bad person for believing it. It is the false fruit Christians can know you by which the armor of God protects us from you.

Those who receive honor are those who choose the Father's Son. You have not, so hell is for you. How truly sad I am for you that this is what you want for yourself and thankful to God that He will keep you eternally separated from His sons and daughters.