Something From Nothing and Always Existed?

Printable View

11-14-2010, 07:58 PM
Parture

Something From Nothing and Always Existed?

Re: mcmadbat3
http://www.youtube.com/user/mcmadbat3

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcmadbat3

dude if god can be the uncaused cause then so can the universe , we know way more about the universe than about god.

Since God is infinitely great and the universe is not, we will never know as much about God as we know about the universe, since God is infinitely greater than the universe. Thanks for proving God. While God can be uncaused, the universe cannot because if the universe always existed you would have happened already having had an eternity to do so. So you lose, you're going to Hell.

Quote:

it is not true something can't come from nothing, particles appear in space randomly for a fraction of a second then decays. The 2nd law of thermodynamics is techincally inaccurate as there is something called anti-matter, if you collide one positron to a electron , they both dissapere.

Anti-matter is still something, not nothing; just as dark energy and dark matter are also.

There is no reason for you to think those particles come non-existence. Decay is a causal reaction even if we don't understand the process on the quantum unseeable level. The particles that collide don't produce non-existence but transform into another kind of matter or anti-matter. Since you have no hard evidence something comes from nothing and you were not able to overturn the 2nd law of thermodynamics, realize you are wrong, living a lie and going to Hell because you refuse God's saving grace.

Remember, alleging something is true is not the same thing as proving it. All we can do is go with the evidence, that being, there are trillions and trillions of causes we know for sure, and no hard evidence to the contrary. This is an overwhelming preponderance of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. Let us not be so arrogant to think just because we are not smart enough to see the cause, therefore there is no cause or ridiculously think that which does not exist which has no energy, time, space or any feature at all except does not exist can cause anything. That's a goofy fantasy life. Don't be a goofball.

Quote:

if god is infinitely great, why can't he just say:" the devil is evil, ill just kill him" it is in his power to do anything, even make my a christian then. And I fail to see how I proved god.

If God were to just throw the Devil in Hell right now then God could be blamed for doing so not giving Satan ample time to repent. And also, people would not have the choice to follow him. God can't change the world the way you want because then then we would not truly be made in God's image with true authentic free will. We would just be a bunch of robots and automatons which is an immoral creation. God wants fellowship with lively beings with free will and made in His image while you do not. To force you to be a Christian which is what Calvinism teaches is evil, since an alleged loved forced on someone is not love at all. A person who is forced to change his mind is of the same opinion still.

Yes you proved God exists because you admit you know way more about the universe than God, showing God is infinitely greater than the universe. If we knew more about God than the universe then the universe would have authority and not God.

Quote:

If the universe always existed you would have an eternity to do so? What the hell is that supposed to mean and prove anything? Space and time is the same thing, you don't need space to create time, you don't need time to create space. And even if a god is real, how do you know your god is real?

It is just as it is said, if the universe always existed as you claim, you would have happened already having had an eternity to do so. You would have come and gone, yet you are here, thus proving your idea false.

I agree space and time are one, so you should have happened already having had an eternity to do so. It gets even weirder. You also should never have existed because there would have been an eternity going on before so as to never reach this point, so you should never have come into being.

Now that you know God exists find out who He is, for He is personal and inaccessible, unlike nature. A loving, accessible and personal God is better than one who is not. A mind is needed to create a mind, but nature has no mind. Conscience and consciousness, volition and feelings and intuition are needed to produce a being with these qualities.

The difference between Christianity and all other religions is all other religions are salvation by works not by faith, yet no man can be saved by works lest any man should boast. How can a man save himself by works when no works are pleasing to God? They all fall short of the glory of God! A sinner himself can never bridge the gap between himself and God. Satan says you can though. Only God can do it! And only in Christianity does God Himself through Jesus enter creation to pay for our sins. There is no greater love, no God more personal and accessible. You really wouldn't want to live a world without Jesus being God.

Since you can't find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs, realize you admit Jesus is God, but you would prefer to go to Hell to be eternally separated from God because you don't receive what He did for you.

How sad for you.
11-15-2010, 04:36 PM
mcmadbat

Thanks for putting the disscussion on here as it is easier than youtube.

If god is infinitly greater than the universe , then we CAN know more about him than our universe. Since there is no limit in how much we know about him.

The universe is around 14 billion years old, and time as we know it was created sometime during the big bang.

Your arguement that we can not just say something based on assumptions and call it fact. Well religion is a good example of that. We don't know exactly how the universe began, so people said god did it.

remember that nothing is a state of existence, or lack of. So techinically nothing is something still.

The whole argument of free will is a fail one. If god knew everything, then he knows the future, and all the conscenquences of any action. So he wouldn't make a mistake, or change his mind like he did in the bible. If he can see the future, which he should cause he is all knowing, then he would know that I brushed my teeth today. Now since he knows that, that meant that I would brush my teeth from the get-go and that it was set in stone. If I had free will, then I could have not brush my teeth today, but I did , and god knew it before I was born. All-knowingness would contradict the existence of free will.

Christianity isn't so unique. Islam also make people go to church ( mosque ) , not be an infedel etc. So your arguement that your god is real and other gods aren't is totally false. Just because we can't explain something with science right now, doesn't mean there must be a supernatural explaination. For example, you don't know where you cell phone went, you searched everywhere. There is no natural explaination, so it must have been a supernatural cause. That is totally bogus just like what you said.
11-15-2010, 06:40 PM
Parture

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcmadbat

Your arguement that we can not just say something based on assumptions and call it fact. Well religion is a good example of that. We don't know exactly how the universe began, so people said god did it.

We do know how the universe began. God did it. Religion, at least faith in Christ, though doesn't just say God did it like atheists say the universe just popped into existence from nothing, but we show you trillions and trillions of causes in nature, and no hard evidence something from nothing, thus proving to you the overwhelming preponderance of evidence. That which has no energy, space, time, matter or anti-matter can't produce anything. It doesn't exist. Do you know why a billion pound gorilla can't lift you and take you to Wal-mart? Because it doesn't exist.

Quote:

remember that nothing is a state of existence, or lack of. So techinically nothing is something still.

When I speak of "nothing" I am not referring to the nothingness of space, but rather literally non-existence. So that which does not exist can't cause the universe and bring it into existence. Your fantasy life just go the better of you. Come over here. I am on this hill making a point. You are on that hill over there that has nothing to do with what I said in the proof.

Quote:

The whole argument of free will is a fail one. If god knew everything, then he knows the future, and all the conscenquences of any action. So he wouldn't make a mistake, or change his mind like he did in the bible. If he can see the future, which he should cause he is all knowing, then he would know that I brushed my teeth today. Now since he knows that, that meant that I would brush my teeth from the get-go and that it was set in stone. If I had free will, then I could have not brush my teeth today, but I did , and god knew it before I was born. All-knowingness would contradict the existence of free will.

God is not changing His mind in the Bible. What He is doing is showing His heart to us in each conditional situation in providing conditions for us to respond to. He knows what's going to happen but He can't deny His heart intent. That's one of the miracles of God. For example, we procreate even though we know children will sin.

God can foreknowing your free choice whether you want to do something or not today. It's not set in stone that you will do it because you could refuse to do it, yet God knows your choice because He operates outside of time and because He uses counterfactuals. Consider, therefore, every time you make a choice, it is itself a miracle how this could even be possible. We don't know how God does it, but we know He does it. This is the miracle of God. It is my belief we will never know how God reconciles free will with His infinite foreknowledge, and that's ok. There are some things God keeps to Himself or maybe we could not understand anyway. What we know for certainty is God created us to be dependent on Him and not independent. We have choice to be either. Those who choose the latter such as yourself will spend eternity in Hell because you separate yourself from God for eternity as you wish. God gives you that choice.

Quote:

Christianity isn't so unique. Islam also make people go to church ( mosque ) , not be an infedel etc. So your arguement that your god is real and other gods aren't is totally false. Just because we can't explain something with science right now, doesn't mean there must be a supernatural explaination. For example, you don't know where you cell phone went, you searched everywhere. There is no natural explaination, so it must have been a supernatural cause. That is totally bogus just like what you said.

Christianity is unique in how churches operate according to biblocality. And Christianity is unique in that salvation is not by works, lest anyone should boast, and that God Himself enters into His creation to die on the cross for the sins of the world to save whosoever is willing to receive Him. Jesus proves He is God by the resurrection whereas other religions you must just believe their assertions and assumptions. Other religions have no confidence in their salvation because they have to work to God, whereas as Christianity nobody can reach up to God, but God reaches down to us by entering His creation. Jesus is the only person who ever said He created the universe. That's amazing that nobody tries to do the same.

It's unrealistic to keep holding out for a scientific explanation when it is already proven there are trillions and trillions of causes in nature, and no hard evidence something comes from nothing. If you kept holding out to know all things to know if God exists, you are effectively saying you need to be all-knowing or God to know if God exists. The pompousness is palpable.

If you lose an object and can't find it, it doesn't make sense to assume that it was supernaturally taken away from you. It still stands to reason since your nature is a careless one and forgetful that you forgot. So many times we lose something and later find it proving the point. Whereas no naturalistic explanation is forthcoming for the testimony of the eyewitnesses seeing Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings.

Praise the Lord!
11-15-2010, 07:36 PM
mcmadbat

1. the vacuum of space is literally nothing-ness, it has no time, no mass, no volume , no matter , no temerature etc. Yet it is still a state of existence ( non-existence) and just like everything it is subject to change because everything is unstable. Thats why we have change. Thats why nothing became something. More logical than god magically made it.

2. Saying god made the universe isn't even credible to the least. You have no evidence of that. I'm looking for evidence, not a introduction to your argument. It's like writting an essay to why the sky is blue, and only writting it's because light made it blue. You're fail so bad. Here's my proof.

Everything in the universe is moving away from a point at about the same speed, we can measure that because of red and blue shift of electro-magnetic radiation. Since nothing in a vacuum slows down the velocity, and the consistency of this observation. We can conclude that everything started from one point. And we estimated that it took about 14 billion years to get from that point to where they are now.

Now you're turn for explaining how god made the universe. And please don't say god works in myserious ways or something like that. I can say a giant spider made the universe, but there is no proof cause it wants to be left alone. It's just as crediable then.

3. You have no explaination of how you can have free will and foreknowledge at the same time, except that god can do it cause hes god. Well if you ask me how fish swim , I can just say it swims because it can swim. Same thing, different scenarios, same creditblilty. Here is one example of contradiction in religion, which proves that it is false.

4. Christianity came from Judasm, it has same god, similar values etc and all religion have similarities, afterlife, a god etc. So christianity isn't really unique.

I present to you another problem with religion. Science keeps changing it's theories because we constantly get more data. Religion only changes when science proves something beyond doubt. Christians used to think the earth is flat, we got a camera in space , we saw the earth is a near sphere, christians had to accept it. You never see christians discover something by religion and then science has to conform to that discovery. NEVER HAPPENED.
11-15-2010, 09:02 PM
Parture

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcmadbat

1. the vacuum of space is literally nothing-ness, it has no time, no mass, no volume , no matter , no temerature etc. Yet it is still a state of existence ( non-existence) and just like everything it is subject to change because everything is unstable. Thats why we have change. Thats why nothing became something. More logical than god magically made it.

The vacuum of space has particles so it is not the "nothing" that I am referring to of non-existence that is without particles. The vacuum of space, therefore, can't be called non-existence. That which does not exist is neither stable or unstable. It doesn't exist. You're violating the 1st law of thermodynamics that something can't come from nothing. It can neither be created nor destroyed naturally.

Since nature can't always have existed nor come from nothing, there must necessarily exist the uncreated Creator, so you can drop your magical something from nothing goofiness.

Quote:

2. Saying god made the universe isn't even credible to the least. You have no evidence of that. I'm looking for evidence, not a introduction to your argument. It's like writting an essay to why the sky is blue, and only writting it's because light made it blue. You're fail so bad. Here's my proof.

Everything in the universe is moving away from a point at about the same speed, we can measure that because of red and blue shift of electro-magnetic radiation. Since nothing in a vacuum slows down the velocity, and the consistency of this observation. We can conclude that everything started from one point. And we estimated that it took about 14 billion years to get from that point to where they are now.

Now you're turn for explaining how god made the universe. And please don't say god works in myserious ways or something like that. I can say a giant spider made the universe, but there is no proof cause it wants to be left alone. It's just as crediable then.

The sky is blue because light reflects the particles as being blue; this is scientifically proven. Accept it just as you would accept that since nature can't always have existed and can't start up from nothing, therefore necessarily there must exist the uncreated Creator.

Everything is moving from a point in the universe at an exponential rate not the same speed. You won't find a single scientist who agrees with you. Dark energy is pushing out at an exponential faster rate than gravity of matter and dark matter. About 13.7 billion years ago the universe came into being from out of God Himself as He willed it.

Now that you know the uncreated Creator created, simply compare to determine who He is. Since none can compare to Christ you know He is God. Your spider is part of nature. Remember, God is outside of nature. You don't need to know how God did it. If you needed to know everything then you would be God. You keep trying to make yourself be God like Satan does. Totally delusional.

Quote:

3. You have no explaination of how you can have free will and foreknowledge at the same time, except that god can do it cause hes god. Well if you ask me how fish swim , I can just say it swims because it can swim. Same thing, different scenarios, same creditblilty. Here is one example of contradiction in religion, which proves that it is false.

The best information we have on how to reconcile God's infinite foreknowledge and free will is through molinism. As simply as I can state it God has chosen a world ensemble in which He saves the most and damns the least, and there is no world where God would save someone but not save them in this world. By so doing free will is truly free.

Fish don't swim because you can swim, since you didn't create fish, but God did it. Always go back to source and stop self-exalting yourself. You're always pointing back to self as the center of the universe whether you realize you are doing it or not.

You're contradicting yourself.

Quote:

4. Christianity came from Judasm, it has same god, similar values etc and all religion have similarities, afterlife, a god etc. So christianity isn't really unique.

I present to you another problem with religion. Science keeps changing it's theories because we constantly get more data. Religion only changes when science proves something beyond doubt. Christians used to think the earth is flat, we got a camera in space , we saw the earth is a near sphere, christians had to accept it. You never see christians discover something by religion and then science has to conform to that discovery. NEVER HAPPENED.

Judaism is not the beliefs of ancient Israel. A Jew who believed in God would accept His Messiah Jesus Christ. Judaism is a false religion that rejects Jesus as the Messiah. So it is not the same God.

Notice science always abide in the laws of cause and effects. No matter how much theories change there is this one constant.

Christianity and the faith of ancient Israelites never changed even with the very latest scientific data. For example, the Bible taught the earth was round by a ship fairer noticing across the ocean and horizon it was curved and also because day and night could only occur by a revolving object that was rounded. Christians never thought the earth was flat that's just a mistaken assumption, but I am sure many people like you thought it was flat. Since the Bible says the earth is round then it's round. If someone who calls himself a Christian says it is flat, how does that change what the Bible teaches for Christians? Science had to conform with God's word. Science would not exist without God's word and the Word of God Jesus Christ, for all things were created by Him and for Him.

The Bible also shows us dinosaurs went extinct because it talks about dinosaurs in the Bible but that they no longer exist, because Gen. 1.2 says God made the earth desolate and waste due to the sin of the inhabitants of earth's earliest ages. Then the earth was restored summed up the six twenty-four hour days. Amen.