Calvinists are Evil

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11-11-2009, 10:56 AM
Churchwork

I was praying for you the way you post, and I think you would be better served to realize being vague is your problem. What you do is look at a verse and assume into it things like Total depravity or irresistible regeneration. Try to examine a verse more closely and with precision to see you can't do that. Only extract from a verse what it says and no more. Your mistaken assumptions are killing you and are way to loose with the Scriptures for your doctrine. A person can make the words of God say anything with that approach.
11-12-2009, 11:00 AM
briancook007

<inappropriate title>

You are accusing me falsely by your saying that I have accused Lydia falsely. She was baptized immediately thereafter (Acts 16:15), which shows that the previous verse indicates her salvation, just as the Philippian jailor was baptized immediately upon his faith (Acts 16:30-33). Rev. 22:17 c & d say, "And LET HIM that is athirst COME. And whosoever will, LET HIM TAKE the water of life freely." Again, in the Greek both of these statements are in the imperative mood, which means that they are commands, not invitations. The Word gives the first command to whoever is thirsty; unregenerate, totally depraved man is never thirsty for salvation, he is satisfied with his own sin, for the Scripture saith, "How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?" (Job 15:16). The second command is given to "whosoever WILL (Gr. "thelo")", whoever has a desire for it; the only way totally depraved, unregenerate man ever has a desire for salvation is if God allows that to him, for what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 53:6: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way."

John 3:27: "A man can receive NOTHING, except it be GIVEN him from heaven."

John 6:44: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him."

John 6:65: "No man can come unto me, except it were GIVEN unto him of my Father."

Rom. 3:11: "There is none that understandeth, there is NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD."

Rom. 11:7: "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it...."

John 4:10: "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest THE GIFT OF GOD, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; THOU WOULDEST HAVE ASKED OF HIM, and he would have given thee living water."

Eph. 2:8-9: "For by grace are ye saved through FAITH; and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is THE GIFT OF GOD: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Psa. 9:17: "The wicked shall be turned into hell."

Psa. 58:3: "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

Eph. 2:1-3: "And you hath he quickened, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and WERE BY NATURE THE CHILDREN OF WRATH, even as others."

You believe man provides saving faith in and of himself apart from God's grace? What saith the Scriptures (Mat. 16:16-17)?

"And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for FLESH AND BLOOD HATH NOT REVEALED IT UNTO THEE, BUT MY FATHER which is in heaven."

Anyone who reads Acts 9:1-6 & 15 objectively knows that God moved upon Paul irresistibly in salvation, for the Scriptures say:

"And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a CHOSEN VESSEL UNTO ME, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel."

No, God does not provide "sufficient grace to all to have the choice for the opportunity to be saved"; He COMMANDS man to repent and to believe. What saith the Scriptures?

Acts 17:30: "God...commandeth all men every where to repent."

Rom. 1:18-20: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."

Regarding Pharaoh, you're thinking two-dimensionally; just because it says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, the point remains that before any mention is made of that, God had said already that He would harden his heart (Ex. 4:12). Again, a careful examination of the Hebrew shows that God hardened Pharaoh's heart by leaving it in its natural state, that of a totally depraved, wretched sinner. Paul uses Pharaoh as an example of a reprobate sinner, even raising the question of injustice, something that never appears in the Arminian system. Regarding any injustice that may be inferred by man, what saith the Scriptures (Rom. 9:14-22)?

"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

Regarding man's sinful natural state and God's sovereign grace in regeneration, what saith the Scriptures?

I Sam. 10:9: "And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart."

Jn. 3:8: "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

Acts 16:14: "Whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Acts 18:27: "...them...which had BELIEVED THROUGH GRACE..."

Tit. 3:5: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

Tit. 1:15-16: "Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16: They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK REPROBATE."

Isa. 59:2: "But your iniquities have SEPARATED between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that HE WILL NOT HEAR."

Jn. 9:31: "Now we know that God HEARETH NOT SINNERS."

Job 15:16: "How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?"

Isa. 1:5-6: "The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Isa. 64:6-7: "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. And there is NONE THAT CALLETH UPON THY NAME, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: FOR THOU HAST HID THY FACE FROM US, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities."

Those verses do teach total depravity and irresistible grace, regardless of your attempts to explain them away.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about. Calvinism never says that one should assume he's been regenerated before he believes and repents; it says that man must do those things this very day. Yes, God does have a foreordinative will and a preceptive will; for what saith the Scriptures?

Gen. 50:20: "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."

Jer. 25:9-12: "Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar THE KING OF BABYLON, my servant, and WILL BRING THEM AGAINST THIS LAND, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I WILL PUNISH THE KING OF BABYLON, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations."

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

Acts 11:18 says, "Then hath God...GRANTED REPENTANCE unto life."; He didn't grant the possibility of repentance, He granted REPENTANCE. Acts 13:48 says, "and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Regarding man's responsibility in faith and repentance and concerning God's two wills, you continue to try to understand Him completely; that's not possible, we're finite. I don't understand how He can be three Persons and one God simultaneously, but that doesn't negate the fact that the Bible teaches it.

No, sir, you are not permitted to judge another man's heart, to say that he's an unbeliever; you have accused me falsely in this, shame on YOU!

You have accused me falsely of demonic possession. Very interesting. The unregenerate Pharisees levelled the same accusation against Christ, for what saith the Scriptures?

Mk. 3:30: "Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit."

Jn. 8:48: "Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?"

You can refuse or can rebuke any blessing you please, but that won't stop me from giving it by God's grace, as He has commanded. I do have authority to use any Scripture rightly, as I am God's child, despite your false accusations to the contrary. If the Lord will, I will continue to do so. You have attacked me unjustly. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ to defend me in this, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). You have accused me falsely, repeatedly of unbelief, of making a false accusation, of selfishness, of pride, of arrogance, and of demonic possession, all of which I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).
11-12-2009, 11:15 AM
briancook007

<inappropriate title>

Boy, isn't that "the pot calling the kettle 'black'". The only person in this debate who's engaging in eisegesis is you, sir. You say you've prayed for me; have you never read Mat. 7:1-5, where the Scriptures say:

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
11-12-2009, 03:54 PM
Churchwork

You're still not saved: don't want to be saved God's way

Quote:

Originally Posted by briancook007

You are accusing me falsely by your saying that I have accused Lydia falsely. She was baptized immediately thereafter (Acts 16:15), which shows that the previous verse indicates her salvation, just as the Philippian jailor was baptized immediately upon his faith (Acts 16:30-33). Rev. 22:17 c & d say, "And LET HIM that is athirst COME. And whosoever will, LET HIM TAKE the water of life freely." Again, in the Greek both of these statements are in the imperative mood, which means that they are commands, not invitations. The Word gives the first command to whoever is thirsty; unregenerate, totally depraved man is never thirsty for salvation, he is satisfied with his own sin, for the Scripture saith, "How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?" (Job 15:16). The second command is given to "whosoever WILL (Gr. "thelo")", whoever has a desire for it; the only way totally depraved, unregenerate man ever has a desire for salvation is if God allows that to him, for what saith the Scriptures?

You brought up Lydia claiming she was irresistibly made to believe when you originally wrote, "The only way God can hear him is to regenerate him, making him alive in Christ; only then does spiritual communication occur.... Please notice what Acts 16:14 says: 'whose heart the Lord opened, THAT SHE ATTENDED unto the things that were spoken of Paul' (KJV)." The reason why Lydia was receptive was because "she worshiped God" as anyone who already believed in God would be. They would accept the Son. The Hebrews who anticipated the Messiah would receive Him. Paul didn't say she was a non-believer, but that she believed in God, so upon hearing Paul speak she was open to receiving Jesus into her life. This new birth she received the Holy Spirit could indwell this new life. What you are failing to understand is that even if she were to die and never have seen Jesus, she would be saved, because she believed in God. How wrong it is of you to accuse an ancient Israelite who believed of God that he would go to Hell only because he hadn't seen Jesus yet. You are falsely accusing Lydia of going to Hell (prior to her encounter with Paul) as well as being irresistibly forced to believe in Jesus. It's not the case at all. Her believing in God naturally brings her into accepting the Lord Jesus for Jesus is one with the Father. If you receive the Father, you'll receive the Son; and if you receive the Son you'll receive the Father. Special grace of the Gospel is more abundant grace give to the rest of the world in need, and all things point back to Christ in which all things are summed up in Him.

This is an appeal to people to come: "The Spirit and the bride say, 'Come.' Let each one who hears them say, 'Come.' Let the thirsty ones come--anyone who wants to. Let them come and drink the water of life without charge." Whoever desires may come. God commands people to do something, but that doesn't mean they will necessarily do it. God does His righteous part and they have their response incumbent upon them by this invitation. The imperative mood is: "a mood that expresses an intention to influence the listener's behavior." Influence doesn't necessitate absolute decretum. Influence can only go so far. You assume whosoever and desire can not be obtained by the person unless is it is irresistibly imposed on him, but such is not the case for God's grace is sufficient that whosoever is willing may desire after God and receive his saving grace. Man is not Totally unable. He is still made in God's image though fallen. The difference between your god and God of the Bible is this central facet that unrighteously yours is unwilling to die for the sins of the whole world, because he is either impotent to be able to do so or unwilling.

Quote:

Isa. 53:6: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way."

John 3:27: "A man can receive NOTHING, except it be GIVEN him from heaven."

John 6:44: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him."

John 6:65: "No man can come unto me, except it were GIVEN unto him of my Father."

Rom. 3:11: "There is none that understandeth, there is NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD."

Rom. 11:7: "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it...."

John 4:10: "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest THE GIFT OF GOD, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; THOU WOULDEST HAVE ASKED OF HIM, and he would have given thee living water."

Eph. 2:8-9: "For by grace are ye saved through FAITH; and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is THE GIFT OF GOD: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Psa. 9:17: "The wicked shall be turned into hell."

Psa. 58:3: "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

Eph. 2:1-3: "And you hath he quickened, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and WERE BY NATURE THE CHILDREN OF WRATH, even as others."

You believe man provides saving faith in and of himself apart from God's grace? What saith the Scriptures (Mat. 16:16-17)?

"And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for FLESH AND BLOOD HATH NOT REVEALED IT UNTO THEE, BUT MY FATHER which is in heaven."

These verses speak of propensity of man's sin nature, not Total inability. You can still help an old lady across the street. It might help to realize that man wouldn't exist without God or be called if He did not first choose and love us, so it is true with the drawing power of God, but that is not to say God does so irresistibly. He is such a big God He can supply all with enabling grace so that none are without excuse.

Quote:

Anyone who reads Acts 9:1-6 & 15 objectively knows that God moved upon Paul irresistibly in salvation, for the Scriptures say:

"And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a CHOSEN VESSEL UNTO ME, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel."

Jesus presented Himself to Paul, and Paul employed his free will to say "Lord, what wilt though have me do?" He could have remained hardened. This was within his realm of choices. Don't read into the text irresistibly imposed and forced into believing Jesus.

Quote:

No, God does not provide "sufficient grace to all to have the choice for the opportunity to be saved"; He COMMANDS man to repent and to believe. What saith the Scriptures?

Acts 17:30: "God...commandeth all men every where to repent."

Rom. 1:18-20: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."

Regarding Pharaoh, you're thinking two-dimensionally; just because it says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, the point remains that before any mention is made of that, God had said already that He would harden his heart (Ex. 4:12). Again, a careful examination of the Hebrew shows that God hardened Pharaoh's heart by leaving it in its natural state, that of a totally depraved, wretched sinner. Paul uses Pharaoh as an example of a reprobate sinner, even raising the question of injustice, something that never appears in the Arminian system. Regarding any injustice that may be inferred by man, what saith the Scriptures (Rom. 9:14-22)?

"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

"God has shewed it unto them" is God's common grace coming unto all men. God commanding and pleading and inviting are not mutually exclusive of His common grace or special grace. You're missing the point about Ex. 4.21, for in there we see it is a foretelling of what will happen, which is not actively happening yet. Even Piper as was shown admitted the first instance of active usage was the Pharaoh hardening his own heart first. This is shows disagreement within the Calvinist camp. Rarely do you find such disagreement with OSAS Arminians. The disagreement among Calvinists is far and wide, because it is hard to rationalize false teaching. It seems like there are as man different views of Calvinism as there are denominations, though all centered on Total depravity with some irresistible imposition without affording the person true genuine choice of their free will by denying its sufficiently supplied grace to all. You seemed to pass over Piper's comment with no mention of it at all. The Pharaoh's heart is not Totally depraved, for at any point he had the free will to not be a hard case which does not conflict with God's foreknowledge of his actions; as he continued to remain obstinate, God harden his heart further to bring about the plagues and show God's mighty work of deliverance against seemingly impossible odds.

Injustice is never raised in Arminianism? You're obviously foaming at the mouth. The injustice is seen in God hardening the Pharaoh's heart for continuing to keep the Hebrews as slaves for 430 years. OSAS Arminians don't see the justice in making the Pharaoh from birth without any recourse destined for Hell. If such attitude is evil for man to behave that way towards fellow man, then God having standards higher than ours would consider such tyranny unacceptable in His own heart. God is not an evil tyrant as you surmise and portray, no matter how much you try to make Him out to be. Your conscience has no sensitivity to this so like many Calvinists before you, God will continue to harden your heart till you reach that breaking point when you then and only then possibly give your life to Christ.

In Romans 9.19 we don't find the one who blames God as blaming Him for irresistible regeneration or denying sufficient grace. Rather in God's infinite wisdom, He shows mercy on whom He shows mercy because He knows what is sufficient grace for all. For example, there is no requirement to give a certain someone more grace than is needed if he were to come to Christ with much less grace. That the one who blames God and misperceives Him is left with Paul responding by saying, who are you to judge God? Reminds me of a Calvinist trying to get into God's head and judging Him for being the God who is able to provide sufficient and enabling grace to all to give us free choice that is only truly free when sufficient grace is bestowed upon all. A Calvinists envisions a god who can't do this.

Quote:

Regarding man's sinful natural state and God's sovereign grace in regeneration, what saith the Scriptures?

I Sam. 10:9: "And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart."

Jn. 3:8: "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

Acts 16:14: "Whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Acts 18:27: "...them...which had BELIEVED THROUGH GRACE..."

Tit. 3:5: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

Tit. 1:15-16: "Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16: They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK REPROBATE."

Isa. 59:2: "But your iniquities have SEPARATED between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that HE WILL NOT HEAR."

Jn. 9:31: "Now we know that God HEARETH NOT SINNERS."

Job 15:16: "How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?"

Isa. 1:5-6: "The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Isa. 64:6-7: "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. And there is NONE THAT CALLETH UPON THY NAME, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: FOR THOU HAST HID THY FACE FROM US, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities."

Those verses do teach total depravity and irresistible grace, regardless of your attempts to explain them away.

None of these verses indicate irresistible grace, but certainly sufficient grace each according to whom it is given, showing mercy upon whom He shows mercy. God never gives a person more than he can handle and never denies the amount needed to believe on Him. These verses speak of the sinful nature of man. They don't necessitate the Total inability of Total depravity, nor does the sovereign grace of God require irresistible imputation, but regeneration follows repentance and faith as God pleads with us to do so. Propensity to sin never equals necessity. Willfulness never requires Total inability. If He wishes that none should perish, then if he were to deny even one human being ample grace to have a true authentic free choice before Him with respect to God, then God would be negligent. God will not go against His righteous an holy nature.

"What must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved" (Acts 16.30-31). "We have also obtained access by faith into this grace" (Rom. 5.2), "for by grace are ye saved through faith" (Eph. 2.8). Faith comes before salvation (regeneration).

What more clearer appeal is there?

Quote:

Again, you don't know what you're talking about. Calvinism never says that one should assume he's been regenerated before he believes and repents; it says that man must do those things this very day. Yes, God does have a foreordinative will and a preceptive will; for what saith the Scriptures?

Gen. 50:20: "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."

Jer. 25:9-12: "Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar THE KING OF BABYLON, my servant, and WILL BRING THEM AGAINST THIS LAND, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I WILL PUNISH THE KING OF BABYLON, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations."

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

Acts 11:18 says, "Then hath God...GRANTED REPENTANCE unto life."; He didn't grant the possibility of repentance, He granted REPENTANCE. Acts 13:48 says, "and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Regarding man's responsibility in faith and repentance and concerning God's two wills, you continue to try to understand Him completely; that's not possible, we're finite. I don't understand how He can be three Persons and one God simultaneously, but that doesn't negate the fact that the Bible teaches it.

The command to do these things is irrelevant to a Calvinist because he assumes he is regenerated to make him do those things, but how is repentance and faith that is forced upon someone true repentance and faith? The type of repentance and faith to a Calvinists is not the same to an Arminian, for the latter comes to Christ as helpless sinners to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior, but the former though claiming were selected, are just assuming it without the prior repentance and faith necessary to enter into a genuine relationship. Hopefully you are beginning to see how selfish and corrupt the lie of Calvinism is by erecting this idol of Total depravity that keeps you from entering into a genuine relationship with Christ Jesus.

God does not have these two wills you claim, for they contradict each other. There is no secret will that conflicts with God's revealed will. You are not allowed to insert anything into God's secrets, like all cults do. Genesis, Jeremiah ands Acts verses you gave present no secret contradictory will where God doesn't want everyone to be saved and then outwardly claims He does. Absurd! There is nothing the flesh can't rationalize. God is not doubleminded. It is in the contradiction that the cult is exposed. Knowing God worketh evil for good is not a contradiction with anything God does as is for Calvinism's two contradiction wills.

I don't know everything about God but I do know when a contradiction is brought out, there is something wrong. God has one will not two wills. A second will that is secret is invoked to rationalize the false teaching of Total depravity. The many that are ordained to eternal life are those whom God foreknew who would receive Him. Thus, they are ordained in His divine providential care. A lot of people have troubles with God's 3 Persons, but it really isn't that complicated when you think of how complex God must be His 3 Persons express that better than anything else. Intuitively I know I pray to the Father through the Son by the Holy Spirit in my spirit. Yet a Calvinist tries to get into God's head by asking the question, Why do some people choose God and some don't? Instead of just accepting we are sovereign beings made in His image with free will, the Calvinism formulates a theology surrounding why some people choose and some don't.

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No, sir, you are not permitted to judge another man's heart, to say that he's an unbeliever; you have accused me falsely in this, shame on YOU!

You have accused me falsely of demonic possession. Very interesting. The unregenerate Pharisees levelled the same accusation against Christ, for what saith the Scriptures?

Mk. 3:30: "Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit."

Jn. 8:48: "Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?"

You can refuse or can rebuke any blessing you please, but that won't stop me from giving it by God's grace, as He has commanded. I do have authority to use any Scripture rightly, as I am God's child, despite your false accusations to the contrary. If the Lord will, I will continue to do so. You have attacked me unjustly. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ to defend me in this, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). You have accused me falsely, repeatedly of unbelief, of making a false accusation, of selfishness, of pride, of arrogance, and of demonic possession, all of which I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).

Whereas the Pharisees could not prove their accusations against Jesus, it is proven that you are not born-again and are demonically possessed, unable to extricate yourself from the hold the evil spirit has on you under this Satanic grace in which you pompously exalt yourself by alleging you were regenerated without having to repent and believe in Christ. Talk about a selfish salvation! You get to eat your cake and eat it too as you stack the deck for yourself. This judgment that is upon you is like how Jesus said, if you won't accept Moses an the prophets before Him, how will you accept God the Son? Jesus says He doesn't have to judge you, but the prophets of old judge you because you worship a false Messiah one which is just for show, since you are allegedly irresistibly selected anyway and others you claim are passed over from birth and there was nothing they could do about. You don't have a conscience to realize how evil and corrupt this is.

You continue to remain in the same unwillingness to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Incidentally, this is why you work so hard for your salvation because it was never your choice, so you really don't know if you are saved or not, thereby hoping that if you keep up the good work this will secure your assumed salvation.

My prayers go out to you that you yet may give your life to Christ one day like this Calvinist did at a Southern Baptist Convention. Your prayers are rebuked in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, for they come from the evil spirit who has got you under a false salvation. There is only one way God saves. He predestinates by foreknowing your free-choice: a conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, for preservation of the saints (OSAS).

Amen.

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Boy, isn't that "the pot calling the kettle 'black'". The only person in this debate who's engaging in eisegesis is you, sir. You say you've prayed for me; have you never read Mat. 7:1-5, where the Scriptures say:

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

Your unwillingness to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated is no small thing.
11-13-2009, 10:55 AM
briancook007

You proceed from a false premise. Your argument is that Lydia was saved before Acts 16:14 because she worshiped God, that that proves that she was believer; I produced Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7 to refute that, showing your logic to be faulty. Paul never said that she was a believer before Acts 16:14; that is erroneous.

Did you read what I wrote about Rev. 22:17c & d? Those two statements are in the IMPERATIVE MOOD in the Greek, which means they are COMMANDS, not invitations. Mk. 1:15 is in the imperative mood; what saith the Scripture? "Repent ye, and believe the gospel." No, man does not have a propensity to sin, it is his nature to do nothing but to sin apart from God's grace. Man isn't totally depraved? What saith the Scriptures?

Gen. 6:5: "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Gen. 8:21: "The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth."

Job 25:4-6: "How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight. How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?"

Psa. 10:4: "The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts."

Psa. 51:5: "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Jer. 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

Jer. 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

Lk. 16:31: "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Rom. 8:5-8: "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is DEATH; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed CAN BE. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

I Cor. 12:3: "No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

Eph. 4:18-19: "Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness."

Col. 2:12-13: "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses."

I Tim. 5:6: "But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth."

Unregenerate man can help others, but what saith the Scriptures regarding that (Tit. 1:15-16)?

"Unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

You say irresistible grace isn't necessary for man to repent and to believe. What saith the Scriptures?

Eccl. 7:13: "Consider the WORK OF GOD: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?"

Jn. 6:28-29: "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the WORK OF GOD, THAT YE BELIEVE on him whom he hath sent."

Phil. 1:6: "Being confident of this very thing, that HE which HATH BEGUN A GOOD WORK in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

Rom. 2:4: "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God LEADETH thee to repentance?"

Eph. 1:19-20: "And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead."

Phil. 3:12: "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I AM APPREHENDED of Christ Jesus."

You say God didn't move upon Paul irresistibly in Acts 9:1-6? Are you serious? Paul "fell to the earth" while he was on his way to persecute God's people! God changed his sinful nature right then and there, regenerating him and giving him the gifts of both faith and repentance.

John Piper is not the authority; the Scriptures are. The first mention of Pharaoh's heart being hardened is Ex. 4:12, before it ever is said that he hardened his own heart. Again, a careful examination of the Hebrew shows that God hardened his heart by leaving it in its natural state, that of a totally depraved, wretched sinner. If there's any kind of uniformity of belief among OSAS Arminians, it's because Satan never divides against himself (Mk. 3:25-26), Arminianism being false doctrine, heresy.

No, injustice in God never is raised in the Arminian system; man always gets what he deserves. You Arminians are the ones who accuse God of injustice; reprobation makes no sense to the carnal mind, which is why you people reject it.

When you quoted Rom. 5:2, you forgot to quote Col. 2:12; what saith the Scripture? "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through THE FAITH OF THE OPERATION OF GOD, who hath raised him from the dead."

You again show your complete ignorance of Calvinistic teaching; we don't say man should assume he's regenerated before he repents and believes, we say he should do those things this very day, this very moment. You said, "The type of repentance and faith to a Calvinists is not the same to an Arminian...." You got that part right. You Arminians say that man provides faith and repentance in and of himself apart from God's grace, while we Calvinists say correctly, scripturally, that those two things are God's gifts to man, not man's gifts to God. I wonder if the thought ever has occurred to you people that the primary object of your system is to glorify MAN, whereas the object of Calvinism is to glorify GOD.

Your ignorance of the facts is showing badly. Christ was murdered when He was crucified, a direct violation of the Sixth Commandment, God's preceptive will; but, what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 53:4: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, SMITTEN OF GOD, and afflicted."

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

You say God doesn't have a secret will? What saith the Scripture? (Deut. 29:29)? "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law."

You said, "Your prayers are rebuked in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, for they come from the evil spirit who has got you under a false salvation." You have no authority to rebuke my prayers, and I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit to defend me in this, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). You hear me again, sir. I'm not afraid of you or the Devil that's motivating you, and don't you ever forget it. By God's grace, you will not deter me, you will not intimidate me; by His grace, I'm not going away. If the Lord will, I will continue to defend the truth of Calvinism in this forum.

You have accused me falsely of demonic possession, the very same charge the Pharisees levelled against Christ (Mk. 3:30, Jn. 8:48). Those Pharisees were unregenerate, lost, REPROBATE. Very interesting. How very true are the words of Spurgeon when he said, "I believe the man who is not willing to submit to the electing love and sovereign grace of God, has great reason to question whether he is a Christian at all, for the spirit that kicks against that is the spirit of the devil, and the spirit of the unhumbled, unrenewed heart."

You have attacked me unjustly. You have accused me falsely, repeatedly of unbelief, repeatedly of working for my salvation, repeatedly of demonic possession, of making false accusations, of cowardice, of cultism, of "Satanic grace", of my alleging that I was "regenerated without having to repent and believe in Christ", and of selfishness. You can refuse or can rebuke any blessing or prayer you please, but that won't stop me from giving them by God's grace, as He has commanded. I do have authority to use any Scripture rightly, as I am God's child, despite your false accusations to the contrary. If the Lord will, I will continue to do so. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ in His Name to defend me in these things, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). All these wrongs I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).
11-13-2009, 03:58 PM
Churchwork

Quote:

Originally Posted by briancook007

You proceed from a false premise. Your argument is that Lydia was saved before Acts 16:14 because she worshiped God, that that proves that she was believer; I produced Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7 to refute that, showing your logic to be faulty. Paul never said that she was a believer before Acts 16:14; that is erroneous.

Matthew 15.9 and Mark 7.7 don't refute that Lydia believed in God as was explained "sebo" can be unto to God or away from God. You are repeating yourself but not responding to my response about this. Where was Lydia talked about prior to Acts 16.14 either way? The first thing mentioned about Lydia is that she believed in God. Do you see also your problem where you would have everyone in the OT be unsaved because they hadn't seen Jesus? That's illogical. You're avoiding this point too, for you have not responded to it yet. People from the OT could be saved also. Please address this and stop avoiding this point. "Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God" then "heard [us]" (Acts 16.14). Whether she had believed God or not is actually irrelevant anyway, because it was her choice. Whether she had already believed in God (which she did) or come to believe in Him just then still doesn't change the fact it was her choice to respond. My belief is because she already believed in God she was once-saved-always-saved so her decision was already made when presented the Christ she could not deny Him. Either way you look at it, you can't turn this scene into a defense for Calvinism which is why you brought it up in the first place. You'll have to look elsewhere.

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Did you read what I wrote about Rev. 22:17c & d? Those two statements are in the IMPERATIVE MOOD in the Greek, which means they are COMMANDS, not invitations. Mk. 1:15 is in the imperative mood; what saith the Scripture? "Repent ye, and believe the gospel." No, man does not have a propensity to sin, it is his nature to do nothing but to sin apart from God's grace. Man isn't totally depraved? What saith the Scriptures?

Gen. 6:5: "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Gen. 8:21: "The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth."

Job 25:4-6: "How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight. How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?"

Psa. 10:4: "The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts."

Psa. 51:5: "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Jer. 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

Jer. 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

Lk. 16:31: "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Rom. 8:5-8: "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is DEATH; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed CAN BE. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

I Cor. 12:3: "No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

Eph. 4:18-19: "Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness."

Col. 2:12-13: "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses."

I Tim. 5:6: "But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth."

Unregenerate man can help others, but what saith the Scriptures regarding that (Tit. 1:15-16)?

You're like a Mormon who quotes lots of stuff as though it agrees with him. You need quality not quantity. You need to get specific with a verse rather than be a regurgitation machine. Your use of imperative mood goes beyond the Scripture usage and definition: "a mood that expresses an intention to influence the listener's behavior" does not demand irresistibly forcing. That's reaching. That God demands something and call people to do something does not mean He forces it, nor does it mean they will respond. With authority He says to repent and believe and by so doing He is appealing to us. It is both a command and an invitation whosoever believeth in Him--though not passive invitation on God's part but He actively pleads with us.

You are wrong that man only ever does wrong, for I know some people who help old ladies across the street. And even atheists have charities. None of these verses you quoted from the Bible indicate man is Totally depraved. Certainly man is fallen and his propensity is to sin. His willfulness to sin is most apparent, but He is not Totally unable. Man would not exist without God; likewise man needs God's grace and assistance in all things. That is not the issue before us. The issue before us is you are trying to find a verse that teaches irresistible grace and imposed salvation in which your god is partial to some and not to others he passes over by preterition. You've thus far failed all your life in the eyes of a Christian who looks at your work.

The mistake you are making in the above verses is that of a legalizer: like an unethical bad lawyer that turns a grey into an absolute. Not one of these verses you can show clearly points to Total depravity of Total inability. Therefore, we can conclude you erect this idol in order to claim you couldn't repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated as an excuse not to. God's grace was sufficient for you, but you deny the ability He gave you to obtain this gift of repentance and faith truly come to Him with an honest heart, thus placing yourself under a passivity of control by demonic forces to take possession of your will and give your responsibility before God.

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"Unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

You say irresistible grace isn't necessary for man to repent and to believe. What saith the Scriptures?

Eccl. 7:13: "Consider the WORK OF GOD: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?"

Jn. 6:28-29: "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the WORK OF GOD, THAT YE BELIEVE on him whom he hath sent."

Phil. 1:6: "Being confident of this very thing, that HE which HATH BEGUN A GOOD WORK in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

Rom. 2:4: "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God LEADETH thee to repentance?"

Eph. 1:19-20: "And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead."

Phil. 3:12: "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I AM APPREHENDED of Christ Jesus."

Again observe the verses you give, for not one of them say a person is irresistibly made to repent and be saved and others passed over and not given the grace to have the choice. God is not partial. He is impartial. His grace is sufficient for all. I know this is hard for you to believe, but it is true because in the Bible God dies for the sins of the whole and wishes that none should perish. The issue before us is not whether God supplies grace and that grace is needed, for of course it is. The issue is whether God is impotent that he needs to irresistibly impose it on some and deny it sufficiently to others, but you could find no such verses, and so you remain a child of perdition as you exalt yourself over others, but you are no less a child of perdition than they are. And the reason is clear, because you refused to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Instead you took an assuming stance which you claim was having been made irresistibly to believe. This is a selfish salvation without true repentance and faith God require from you. He sets the condition which you deny for "whosoever believeth".

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You say God didn't move upon Paul irresistibly in Acts 9:1-6? Are you serious? Paul "fell to the earth" while he was on his way to persecute God's people! God changed his sinful nature right then and there, regenerating him and giving him the gifts of both faith and repentance.

God can make a person fall to the earth, but the person who falls to the earth still has the free-choice to respond to God's conviction. God was able to change Paul's sinful nature because Paul responded to God's call. Paul was one man who needed that much grace to be saved. Of course many who receive even that much grace would still reject God so God need not throw them to the ground anyway.

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John Piper is not the authority; the Scriptures are. The first mention of Pharaoh's heart being hardened is Ex. 4:12, before it ever is said that he hardened his own heart. Again, a careful examination of the Hebrew shows that God hardened his heart by leaving it in its natural state, that of a totally depraved, wretched sinner. If there's any kind of uniformity of belief among OSAS Arminians, it's because Satan never divides against himself (Mk. 3:25-26), Arminianism being false doctrine, heresy.

I'll say, he is not even born-again, as a Calvinist. It's interesting the Calvinists can't agree with each other. But he is right about the fact that the first instance mentioned of hardening was not the active moment, but of God foreseeing. Why do you continue to overlook this fact? You don't respond to it. The first active hardening was the Pharaoh hardening his own heart. You don't read the Bible very well. The Pharaoh is not Totally depraved. No man is. This is an idol you erect that keeps you separated from God, causing you to be unwilling to repent and believe in Him to be regenerated, which you even admit you have not and will not. Satan is the false accuser to the last through you where there is this strong agreement in the Body you call it evil. Which makes sense, because you are not a member of the body of Christ, but do Satan's bidding. It is Satan that wants you not to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated, and you give into this selfish nature not to.

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No, injustice in God never is raised in the Arminian system; man always gets what he deserves. You Arminians are the ones who accuse God of injustice; reprobation makes no sense to the carnal mind, which is why you people reject it.

Yes, God did raise up Jacob Arminius in response to the heresies of Calvinism. Arminianism doesn't say man does not get what he deserves, but we do say that God is not an unjust God who does not provide ample grace. Reprobation, those going to perdition need not be by preterition, for God is a fair and just God and would want none to perish so He does all He must to the uttermost of His righteousness to save the most and damn the least. The carnal mind makes God an evil tyrant with morals less than man's and equal to Hitler by sending them from birth like the Jews to the gas chambers without any opportunity of escape and receive the love of God. What love is this?

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When you quoted Rom. 5:2, you forgot to quote Col. 2:12; what saith the Scripture? "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through THE FAITH OF THE OPERATION OF GOD, who hath raised him from the dead."

That's obnoxious. I don't speak to people like that, nor should you. I don't say you forgot to quote one of many verses. I forgot to quote a verse, one of thousands of verse you just popped out and said I didn't quote? Please. This faith is not the saving faith unto regeneration, but it is the faithfulness one has after being saved, so one who is saved gets baptized. A person who has died with Christ on the cross naturally gets buried in baptism and rises up with Him and out of the world. A person who is born-again is already saved. The act of baptism of the Spirit is experienced as result of this new life. Calvin thought salvation was before or at baptism before even believing in God as an infant. That's the consistent and common assumption that plagues Calvinism to assume regeneration without prior genuine repentance and faith. That's twisted to get buried before dying. The very pride you exhume from that day of first assuming regeneration without repentance and faith can't help but rear its ugly head in pride again and again. And this is how you come across. It's palpable. You can't sense it though. You're hovering on the surface oblivious.

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You again show your complete ignorance of Calvinistic teaching; we don't say man should assume he's regenerated before he repents and believes, we say he should do those things this very day, this very moment. You said, "The type of repentance and faith to a Calvinists is not the same to an Arminian...." You got that part right. You Arminians say that man provides faith and repentance in and of himself apart from God's grace, while we Calvinists say correctly, scripturally, that those two things are God's gifts to man, not man's gifts to God. I wonder if the thought ever has occurred to you people that the primary object of your system is to glorify MAN, whereas the object of Calvinism is to glorify GOD.

I am sure you say you shouldn't assume you are regenerated because that would be of self, but nonetheless, you do assume you were regenerated without prior repentance and faith because you admit by the idol of Total depravity you couldn't repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Your mistaken assumption got the better of you. Arminians don't say what you accuse of that repentance comes from man, not at all. Rather, we may obtain the gift of repentance and faith by coming to God with an honest heart, so you are clearing mistaken in misrepresenting Christians when you said, "Arminians say that man provides faith and repentance in and of himself apart from God's grace." In fact, this very thing you claim is what you engender because it was against God's grace to merely assume regeneration without any true heart felt repentance and prior believe to be saved. It's sad the Calvinist doesn't realize his grand assumption and self-exaltation is his pretentious gift to Satan. The objective of Christianity, and thus agreed to by Arminian, is to glorify God for God created us to have a relationship with us and none is higher than Him. Whereas in Calvinism you glorify evil, the evil that sends people to Hell without recourse from birth when there was nothing they could do about it, they were just born that way, and he irresistibly imposes this alleged salvation you claim you have. This is utterly evil, but you don't have a conscience to sense your erroneous thinking, because you don't want to be saved God's way. And that's very sad, very sad indeed.

It should be enough for you to leave Calvinism by recognizing the contradiction of your god who claims he wants all to be saved openly, but secretly he doesn't. God is not a doubletalker but your god is. Repent!

Quote:

Your ignorance of the facts is showing badly. Christ was murdered when He was crucified, a direct violation of the Sixth Commandment, God's preceptive will; but, what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 53:4: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, SMITTEN OF GOD, and afflicted."

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

You say God doesn't have a secret will? What saith the Scripture? (Deut. 29:29)? "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law."

God doesn't put Himself to death. But He uses evil for good. In foreknowing man's hostility against God Almighty, God would use that to provide a salvation for men that whosoever was willing could receive His mercy and grace. I have some advice for you: try to read any one particular verse more closely and not read into it that which is not there or not clearly shown there. Really see if you can do it! Assume nothing.

Quote:

You said, "Your prayers are rebuked in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, for they come from the evil spirit who has got you under a false salvation." You have no authority to rebuke my prayers, and I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit to defend me in this, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). You hear me again, sir. I'm not afraid of you or the Devil that's motivating you, and don't you ever forget it. By God's grace, you will not deter me, you will not intimidate me; by His grace, I'm not going away. If the Lord will, I will continue to defend the truth of Calvinism in this forum.

You call upon a false Christ, because in your faith Jesus died frivolously since whether he died or not, you were to be irresistibly selected according to your proclamation of regeneration. The authority that I have is that of an Apostle to tell you, you are not a child of God by the Holy Spirit, fully proven in Scripture, for there are no verses for Total depravity and there is not irresistible grace--this is Satanic grace, not God's grace at all.

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You have accused me falsely of demonic possession, the very same charge the Pharisees levelled against Christ (Mk. 3:30, Jn. 8:48). Those Pharisees were unregenerate, lost, REPROBATE. Very interesting. How very true are the words of Spurgeon when he said, "I believe the man who is not willing to submit to the electing love and sovereign grace of God, has great reason to question whether he is a Christian at all, for the spirit that kicks against that is the spirit of the devil, and the spirit of the unhumbled, unrenewed heart."

The Holy Spirit reveals you are under possession because you are unable to repent of the heresy of Calvinism. You're like the reprobate of Calvinism, locked in and this is possession by the imposing evil spirits. Not all Pharisees are reprobate for some may have yet given their lives to Christ like Paul did. Spurgeon recognized the unsalvation of himself and Calvinists because he said "the man who is not willing to submit to the electing love and sovereign grace of God, has great reason to question whether he is a Christian at all..." You kick with the devil because you were not willing to submit to God, for submission to God is not pridefully assuming you were regenerated without prior repentance and faith, nor is it by a God who makes you believe without genuine repentance which we all may freely obtain. A gift is never forced on anyone. May you yet one day give your life to Christ. I'd hate to receive a gift from you. I'd be dragged into having to accept it.

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You have attacked me unjustly. You have accused me falsely, repeatedly of unbelief, repeatedly of working for my salvation, repeatedly of demonic possession, of making false accusations, of cowardice, of cultism, of "Satanic grace", of my alleging that I was "regenerated without having to repent and believe in Christ", and of selfishness. You can refuse or can rebuke any blessing or prayer you please, but that won't stop me from giving them by God's grace, as He has commanded. I do have authority to use any Scripture rightly, as I am God's child, despite your false accusations to the contrary. If the Lord will, I will continue to do so. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ in His Name to defend me in these things, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). All these wrongs I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).

God's grace came upon you and you rejected it when you refused to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. That's the bottom line: it is the same theme over and over. Not to say you couldn't this very day give your life to Christ, but it is highly unlikely, for you have already decided what you want. It oozes out from you such immense pride Christians can see it easily it is not of the Holy Spirit but the evil spirit. You preach a false gospel. You are not a child of God and probably never will will be, for like I said, you are possessed and you want to remain under the control of the evil spirit (proclaiming it to be of God, but Jesus says He never knew you). You've made your choice, now you want to try to understand that evil choice. The blessings of an unregenerate are rebuked in the name of God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit. My prayers go out to you, you don't have to remain as you are. You do have a choice, for you are made in God's image as a sovereign free willed being to be under God or under Satan. The problem is choice and coming to the cross as a helpless sinner without pridefully assuming.

Amen.
11-14-2009, 02:24 PM
briancook007

Your logic is faulty. The burden of proof lies upon you to show that Lydia was saved before Acts 16:14, which you haven't done; you are the one who is sidestepping the issue. I never said that everyone in the Old Testament was unsaved because they hadn't seen Jesus; that's a misrepresentation, so again, your logic is faulty. It never says that Lydia believed in God, it says she worshiped Him; that doesn't mean automatically that she was saved, as Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7 show. Despite your attempts to explain it away, this incident does show irresistible grace, for what saith the Scriptures?

Acts 16:14: "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, HEARD us: whose heart the Lord opened, THAT SHE ATTENDED unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Jn. 8:43, 47: "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot HEAR my word. He that is of God HEARETH God's words: ye therefore HEAR them not, because ye are not of God."

Jn. 1:13: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God."

II Cor. 5:17: "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new CREATURE (or, CREATION): old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Again, Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that Jn. 1:13 is in the passive voice in the Greek, which means that the subject is being acted upon and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it.

No, the imperative mood means that the statement is a command. Again, Mk. 1:15 is in the imperative mood, where Christ says, "Repent ye, and believe the gospel." What else did He say (Lk. 13:5)? "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." Mk. 1:15 is not an invitation, it is a command to man to repent.

You still deny total depravity? What saith the Scriptures?

Gen. 6:5: "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY imagination of the thoughts of his heart was ONLY evil continually."

Gen. 8:21: "The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth."

Isa. 1:5-6: "The WHOLE head is sick, and the WHOLE heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is NO soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Jer. 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

Jer. 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

Psa. 58:3: "The wicked are estranged FROM THE WOMB: they go astray AS SOON AS THEY BE BORN, speaking lies."

Eph. 2:1-3: "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

Unregenerate people perform charitable acts, but what saith the Scriptures regarding that (Tit. 1:15-16)?

"Unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK REPROBATE."

No, in Acts 9:1-6 Paul was on his way to persecute God's people, his nature was evil at that point; God changed his nature irresistibly, the only way his evil nature could have been changed, regenerating him, giving him a new nature (II Cor. 5:17), which is why he said, "LORD, what wilt thou have me to do?"

You want me to respond to my point about Ex. 4:12, that the first mention of Pharaoh's heart being hardened was when God said He would harden it? What saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 14:24: "The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand."

Eph. 1:11: "...the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will..."

The Scripture does not say, "As it shall come to pass, so have I thought." It says, "as I have thought, so shall it come to pass." God does not foresee events, He is the foreordinative Author of them.

You say reprobation is unjust? What saith the Scriptures?

Rom. 9:16-22: "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

Dr. A.T. Robertson says that "fitted to destruction" is in the passive voice, again, meaning that the subject is being acted upon and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. Foreordinatively, God "worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Eph. 1:11).

No, the baptism in Col. 2:12-13 refers to regeneration (I Cor. 12:13), for it is written:

"Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses."

Your irritation is showing; I'm reminded of the words of Tacitus when he said: "Abuse, if you slight it, will gradually die away; but if you show yourself irritated you will be thought to have deserved it." Perhaps your irritation shows your own recognition of the heretical error of Arminianism.

No, sir, I was correct when I said that Arminians say that man provides faith and repentance apart from God's grace. You people say that man comes to Christ of his own free will, that God never forces that, that man makes the ultimate decision whether or not he's saved, that, ultimately, he saves himself by being smart enough to make the right decision in and of himself. That is proud, arrogant, and carnal. You Arminians are the ones who are guilty of "grand assumption and self-exaltation." Again, the primary object of your heretical system is to glorify MAN, whereas the object of Calvinism is to glorify GOD, no matter what linguistic legerdemain you may employ to try to explain it away. Your denial of these things shows that not only are you ignorant of Calvinistic teaching, you're also ignorant of Arminian teaching.

No, Calvinism doesn't "glorify evil", it says that man is a foul, wretched, vile creature in and of himself apart from God's grace, that his only hope is in a merciful God Who would have been entirely within His legal rights, because of the Fall, to have damned every single member of the human race to eternal Hell fire; but, in His infinite wisdom, mercy, and grace He chose to save some while passing by others, justly condemning them for their sins. Do you know what reprobation is? God's letting man have his own way. The reprobate sinner has no desire to be saved, for the Scripture saith (Job 15:16): "How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?" He has no desire to take "the water of life" (Rev. 22:17), his thirst is satiated already with his own sin. You Arminians say man takes that water in and of himself, that he believes and repents in and of his own capacity, regardless of your denial of it; but what saith the Scriptures?

Mat. 16:16-17: "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

Jn. 4:10: "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water."

Jn. 6:28-29: "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Phil. 1:6: "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

Eph. 2:8-9: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

The Scriptures declare that God has both a foreordinative will and a preceptive will (Deut. 29:29). Jesus Christ was murdered, a direct violation of the Sixth Commandment, the day He died on the Cross of Calvary, but the Scriptures declare:

Isa. 53:4: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

There is an instance where God used even the Devil himself to accomplish His foreordinative will, when it was a direct violation of His preceptive will:

I Chr. 21:1: "And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel."

II Sam. 24:1: "And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah."

You've accused God falsely of double-talk in this; I really wouldn't want to be in your shoes when you answer for that.

No, the reason why God regenerated me was because Christ died in my place, taking all my punishment on the Cross. God applied the precious Blood of Christ to my heart, giving me a new nature; He forgave me because of the Atonement, not irrespective of it, as you've said erroneously. No, sir, you are not an apostle; those twelve men are with the Lord now, having accomplished their blessed work on this earth. You have no right to accuse me falsely, to judge my heart, to say that I'm an unbeliever. I'm saved, elect, by God's sovereign grace, and I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ, my Savior, my "advocate with the Father" (I Jn. 2:1), to defend me against these satanic, carnal, false charges.

No, the Pharisees who accused Christ falsely of demonic possession, as you've accused me falsely of it, are in Hell now, they were reprobate, because in so doing they committed the unpardonable sin (Mk. 3:28-30, Jn. 8:48). You do not exhibit the spirit of Christ, you show the spirit of the Devil. Spurgeon indeed was correct when he said: "I believe the man who is not willing to submit to the electing love and sovereign grace of God, has great reason to question whether he is a Christian at all, for the spirit that kicks against that is the spirit of the devil, and the spirit of the unhumbled, unrenewed heart."

You have attacked me unjustly. You have accused me falsely, repeatedly of unbelief, repeatedly of idolatry, repeatedly of demonic possession, repeatedly of assuming regeneration before faith and repentance, repeatedly of selfishness, of demonic control, of being a "child of perdition", of being a Satanic instrument, of doing Satan's bidding, of giving a "pretentious gift to Satan", of "Satanic grace", of calling upon a false Christ, of preaching a false gospel, of unwillingness to repent and to believe, of admitting to an unwillingness to repent and to believe, of pride, of "Satanic grace", and of selfishness. You can refuse or can rebuke any blessing or prayer you please, but that won't stop me from giving them by God's grace, as He has commanded, nor will your refusals or your rebukes nullify them, for I respecfully call upon God in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit to protect and to prosper any and all blessings that I have given you in this entire debate. I have authority to use any Scripture rightly, as I am God's child, despite your false accusations to the contrary. If the Lord will, I will continue to do so. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ in His Name to defend me in these things, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). All these wrongs I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).
11-15-2009, 09:39 AM
Churchwork

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Originally Posted by briancook007

Your logic is faulty. The burden of proof lies upon you to show that Lydia was saved before Acts 16:14, which you haven't done; you are the one who is sidestepping the issue. I never said that everyone in the Old Testament was unsaved because they hadn't seen Jesus; that's a misrepresentation, so again, your logic is faulty. It never says that Lydia believed in God, it says she worshiped Him; that doesn't mean automatically that she was saved, as Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7 show. Despite your attempts to explain it away, this incident does show irresistible grace, for what saith the Scriptures?

Acts 16:14: "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, HEARD us: whose heart the Lord opened, THAT SHE ATTENDED unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Jn. 8:43, 47: "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot HEAR my word. He that is of God HEARETH God's words: ye therefore HEAR them not, because ye are not of God."

Jn. 1:13: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God."

II Cor. 5:17: "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new CREATURE (or, CREATION): old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Your logic is faulty. Acts 16.14 says she was already a believer in God: "She was a worshiper of God" then follows, "As she listened to us, the Lord opened her heart, and she accepted what Paul was saying." She accepted what Paul was saying because she already believed in God-no mention of her being an unbeliever. So the burden remains on you. To worship God is to believe in Him, for one who does not worship God doesn't believe in Him to worship Him. You are trying to sidestep the issue, which is, if she hadn't believed in God that wouldn't help your case anyway, because there is nothing in the passage that says she was irresistibly made to believe. You brought this up to try to claim irresistible grace, but you failed. Stop inserting into the text that which is not there! Calvinists do this constantly. This verse doesn't say she had not believed in God, began to listen, the Lord opened her heart, and then she was saved. No! It begins by saying she worshiped God as many did in the OT before Jesus entered into His creation."If you believed in Moses, you would believe in Me, because he wrote about Me. But if you don't believe his writings, how will you believe My words." Prior to Jesus dying the cross a person could be saved except that when they were saved and given new life the Holy Spirit did not indwell the spirit because the veil was not yet rent. What transpired here for Lydia is that as a believer and worshiper of God she was saved, but the Holy Spirit had not yet entered into her spirit, that which you don't have, because you are a Calvinist. Matt. 15.9 and Mark 7.7 are not the worshiping of God but a false God, so these two passages don't help what you are arguing for.

"As she listened to us...she attended [accepted]" was her choice, not irresistibly imposed. She was doing the listening and she was doing the accepting. God provides the grace of opening receptive hearts, but the choice remains hers. The reason you refuse to hear God's word is because you cannot and you cannot because you are unwilling. You are not born of your will by assuming you were regenerated, but God requires you to repent and believe in in Him to be regenerated: "not of...the will of man, but of God." God contrast faith from works of Calvinism: "Are faith and works contrasted as opposites? "By grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5). Faith does not equal assuming regeneration without prior repentance and faith. That will never do, so you are not a new creation of God, for you are still living in your old man stuck in the Old Creation. Calvinism is an age old heresy, immorals and ideas Augustine held in the 4th century of being tyrannical.

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Again, Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that Jn. 1:13 is in the passive voice in the Greek, which means that the subject is being acted upon and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it.

Of course God does the saving. What Arminian says otherwise? Notice that John 1.13 doesn't say anything about someone irresistibly being made to be saved, for man is afforded the choice.

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No, the imperative mood means that the statement is a command. Again, Mk. 1:15 is in the imperative mood, where Christ says, "Repent ye, and believe the gospel." What else did He say (Lk. 13:5)? "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." Mk. 1:15 is not an invitation, it is a command to man to repent.

Why do you disagree with the dictionary definition of imperative mood: "a mood that expresses an intention to influence the listener's behavior"? Of course God is commanding we must "repent and believe the gospel" but a command itself doesn't force anyone to do it. The command of these words "Except ye repent, ye shall likewise perish" are not mutually exclusive of an offer and invitation for salvation, for what God commands, still requires our response. We are not robots, nor does God give His commands in vain such that you couldn't refuse them. You're a false teaching. I have noticed you are always wrong in everything you say. Don't you realize you don't have to argue for God commanding forcing to it to happen because in your theology you are allowed to contradict yourself with your gods contradictory two wills: wanting all to be saved but not really.

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You still deny total depravity? What saith the Scriptures?

Gen. 6:5: "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY imagination of the thoughts of his heart was ONLY evil continually."

Gen. 8:21: "The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth."

Isa. 1:5-6: "The WHOLE head is sick, and the WHOLE heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is NO soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Jer. 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

Jer. 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

Psa. 58:3: "The wicked are estranged FROM THE WOMB: they go astray AS SOON AS THEY BE BORN, speaking lies."

Eph. 2:1-3: "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

Notice you were unable to prove Total depravity from out of any of these verses. Wickedness, every thought, evil continually, born into sin, evil from youth, the whole of man, deceitfulness, like a leopard with unchanging spots, lying, children of wrath ... all speak of man's willfulness and propensity, not Total inability and necessity. This fact agrees with the fact that "He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone" (Heb. 2.9), which is to provide sufficient grace to all. But your god is unwilling or unable to do this. To provide sufficient grace to all indicates that God has afforded us all choice. "Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, that you and your descendants might live!" (Deut. 30.19) If you were Totally depraved you would have no choice in the matter but must be irresistibly imposed on and others unrighteously subject to preterition. What love is this? If it is evil for man, it's evil for us. You're like an unethical lawyer trying to pull out a legal technicality of the letter, missing the Spirit of the message, thus missed the spiritual intent that expresses man's sin nature. It is so easy to disprove your approach, because a person who is unsaved can help an old lady across the street. We observe this in experience and in the word of God: "I have given you the choice." Man's depravity is not mutually exclusive of being given a choice.

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Unregenerate people perform charitable acts, but what saith the Scriptures regarding that (Tit. 1:15-16)?

"Unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK REPROBATE."

Again you are trying to be legalistic with this which is expressing man's sin nature that is utterly corruptible. It is not saying helping an old lady across the street is something man can't do. Likewise, it is not saying you can't receive what Jesus did for you on the cross. You can yet repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. You don't have to remain as you are a reprobate. Priding yourself on thinking you were irresistibly regenerated forcing you to repent and believe Christians don't consider this true repentance and faith, because it was forced. "Freely ye received, freely give" (Matt. 10.8). There is much common grace in the world by which people do good things, but these things they do does not save them, for they must believe in Jesus to be saved by grace through faith, not of yourselves, lest any man should boast. Assuming regeneration was irresistibly imposed is of your self!

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No, in Acts 9:1-6 Paul was on his way to persecute God's people, his nature was evil at that point; God changed his nature irresistibly, the only way his evil nature could have been changed, regenerating him, giving him a new nature (II Cor. 5:17), which is why he said, "LORD, what wilt thou have me to do?"

Paul was not changed irresistibly, for he could have still resisted. Before Paul could ever ask what he should do, we read... "Who are you, sir?" Saul asked. And the voice replied, "I am Jesus, the one you are persecuting!" (Acts 9.5) In that moment, he responded to God as God knew he would. Never think God's infinite foreknowledge means irresistibly made to do something. His infinite foreknowledge allows for a righteous response by God, even an intervention, but not forcing things like an evil tyrant would. Since God is relational, He relates with us. Paul didn't have to ask the Lord what he was to do, but God knew he was saved at that point, truly believing in Him, and so told Paul what to do.

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You want me to respond to my point about Ex. 4:12, that the first mention of Pharaoh's heart being hardened was when God said He would harden it? What saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 14:24: "The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand."

Eph. 1:11: "...the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will..."

The Scripture does not say, "As it shall come to pass, so have I thought." It says, "as I have thought, so shall it come to pass." God does not foresee events, He is the foreordinative Author of them.

The verse is Ex. 4.21 not 4.12. I don't want you to respond to yourself, I want you to respond to the point I made (which you are still avoiding) that in verse 21 is not the first active use of hardening: "And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go." Even your Calvinist brethren, Piper, admits this is not God hardening his heart first, which is obvious. You are not allowed to assume God hardened his heart first by this verse for that would be mindlessly reading into the text that which is not there. Be honest. Those things that shall come to pass are God's divine plan: this does not require robots. Everything God does is righteous, holy and true: by the counsel of His will does not demand irresistibly imposed tyrannical force. Let it go. It is not of God. Evil people act like that. Not God. You're fashioning God in your own image.

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You say reprobation is unjust? What saith the Scriptures?

Rom. 9:16-22: "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

Dr. A.T. Robertson says that "fitted to destruction" is in the passive voice, again, meaning that the subject is being acted upon and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. Foreordinatively, God "worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Eph. 1:11).

Nothing in Rom. 9 says a person is irresistibly regenerated! I believe in reprobation, for obviously many such as yourself are going to Hell. Rather, I reject Calvinism reprobation, because from birth it sends people to Hell without recourse, no grace or mercy or justice whatsoever. What love is this? You may get off on thinking many are going to Hell without the opportunity to be saved, but it is by this very attitude of yours, I know you are not a child of God. God of the Bible simply doesn't teach this! In Romans 9 the one blaming God for showing mercy upon whom He shows mercy is not explaining God is using preterition, for God responds by correcting the man's misunderstanding in his stinkin' thinkin'. The person arguing is saying it is unfair some go to Hell. God says He is the righteous potter. You should not think God is some evil diabolical tyrant bringing people into His creation and making them for Hell. That's not what God is saying at all. Suffice it to say God provides sufficient grace to all to have the right to be saved by grace through faith. When He shows mercy upon whom He shows mercy it is according to His righteous way of doing things and holy nature. You can trust that He is doing it properly!

That God fits for destruction is not without the person's choice in the matter. God's verdict comes down: "fitted for destruction" does not imply or even remotely suggest that person was created and made for Hell anymore than you are irresistibly made to be regenerated. That's not what God is saying at all. Let go of your pride you exalt yourself over others with this nonsense.

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No, the baptism in Col. 2:12-13 refers to regeneration (I Cor. 12:13), for it is written:

"Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses."

Your irritation is showing; I'm reminded of the words of Tacitus when he said: "Abuse, if you slight it, will gradually die away; but if you show yourself irritated you will be thought to have deserved it." Perhaps your irritation shows your own recognition of the heretical error of Arminianism.

Regeneration is initial salvation. When one repents and believes in Christ they are regenerated: initial salvation, the new birth, born-again, receiving eternal life which can never be lost. What baptism provides which follows is after having died on the cross with Christ, one then gets buried in baptism which is experientially dying to the world and rising up out of the world and with Christ. Notice Col. 2.12 says, "you were raised to a new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead." You weren't raised to new life because you were baptized, but speaking of Christians: "you trusted the might power of God..." Let's say you were in a desert and there was no water. You couldn't get baptized if it was legalized like you legalize baptism like Oneness Pentecostals do so as to miss the point. Therefore, the baptism of the Spirit is with or without water in burial and resurrection with Jesus. Baptism can never provide initial salvation, but it can deepen one's spiritual life after having already been saved.

Before the priest could use his knife the sacrifice had to be placed on the altar. The altar in the Old Testament speaks of the cross in the New Testament. Believers cannot expect their High Priest to wield God’s sharp Sword, His Word which pierces to the separation of soul and spirit, unless first they are willing to come to the cross and accept its death. Lying on the altar always precedes the plunging of the sword. Hence all who desire to experience the parting of soul and spirit must answer the Lord’s call to Calvary and lay themselves unreservedly on the altar, trusting their High Priest to operate with His keen Sword to the dividing asunder of their spirit and soul. For us to lie on the altar is our free-will offering well-pleasing to God; to use the sword to divide is the work of the priest. We should fulfill our part with all faithfulness, and commit the rest to our merciful and faithful High Priest. And at the appropriate time He shall lead us into baptism and a complete spiritual experience.

I find Tacitus' comment applies to you well which is probably why you brought it up, because you are projecting these traits in yourself and are getting frustrated because Christians always reject you.

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No, sir, I was correct when I said that Arminians say that man provides faith and repentance apart from God's grace. You people say that man comes to Christ of his own free will, that God never forces that, that man makes the ultimate decision whether or not he's saved, that, ultimately, he saves himself by being smart enough to make the right decision in and of himself. That is proud, arrogant, and carnal. You Arminians are the ones who are guilty of "grand assumption and self-exaltation." Again, the primary object of your heretical system is to glorify MAN, whereas the object of Calvinism is to glorify GOD, no matter what linguistic legerdemain you may employ to try to explain it away. Your denial of these things shows that not only are you ignorant of Calvinistic teaching, you're also ignorant of Arminian teaching.

I don't know any Arminians who believe what you think about us that we provide faith and repentance or apart from God's grace. Rather we Christians believe that God is the one who provides the gift of repentance and faith and since God wants a relationship with us, He doesn't force these things on us as your god does. He made us in image to be able to obtain these free gifts to come to the cross as helpless sinners and receive the Lord Jesus as Savior. The ultimate decision is God's. He is the one who sets forth the condition for salvation to believe on Him by faith. God has made us all smart enough to make the right decision, for He has supplied us all with sufficient enabling grace to have that choice and present to the High Priest our free will offering. We all have God-consciousness: all made in His image. None of us are Totally depraved! Though fallen we are not Totally unable. Stop believing in Satan's lie.

That being said, notice your contradiction. By your own free will you have assumed you were regenerated without any prior repentance and faith because you said you could not (an assumption), thus erecting your idol of Total depravity that prevents you from having true repentance and faith for a genuine relationship with your Creator. Very sad! It's a cop out and a selfish salvation without you authentically receiving Him as He would have you. The reason why your belief is a doublestandard is because you are employing the very same free will Christians do except that while you blame us for believing in Jesus, you believe in a false Christ. You think yourself smart enough to just assume regeneration into being for yourself. Can anything be more proud and arrogant and carnal? You don't need God. You can save yourself! Calvinists don't glorify God but place themselves in their grandiose proclamations they were regenerated without having had to repent and believe in Jesus. Such self-exaltation you harbor is rejected by God's children-the body of Christ. Your grand assumption is apart form God's saving grace. How libertarian free will of you! And pelagian, denying the original sin, for the original sin doesn't make you Totally depraved.

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No, Calvinism doesn't "glorify evil", it says that man is a foul, wretched, vile creature in and of himself apart from God's grace, that his only hope is in a merciful God Who would have been entirely within His legal rights, because of the Fall, to have damned every single member of the human race to eternal Hell fire; but, in His infinite wisdom, mercy, and grace He chose to save some while passing by others, justly condemning them for their sins. Do you know what reprobation is? God's letting man have his own way. The reprobate sinner has no desire to be saved, for the Scripture saith (Job 15:16): "How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?" He has no desire to take "the water of life" (Rev. 22:17), his thirst is satiated already with his own sin. You Arminians say man takes that water in and of himself, that he believes and repents in and of his own capacity, regardless of your denial of it; but what saith the Scriptures?

Mat. 16:16-17: "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

Jn. 4:10: "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water."

Jn. 6:28-29: "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Phil. 1:6: "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

Eph. 2:8-9: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Arminians also say "man is a foul, wretched, vile creature in and of himself apart from God's grace, that his only hope is in a merciful God Who would have been entirely within His legal rights, because of the Fall, to have damned every single member of the human race to eternal Hell fire; but, in His infinite wisdom, mercy, and grace..." But that is not the point before us. The point before us is whether man is Totally depraved or partially depraved? Since man can still help an old lady across the street you can't say people are Totally unable. Where you go wrong is to add on to your sentence "...He chose to save some while passing by others, justly condemning them for their sins." The reason you have to believe this, which is very evil to say the least, is because it follows the mistaken assumption of Total depravity. One error leads to another: one mistake assumption begets another: sin begets sin. There is no basis for Total depravity, nor is there any basis for worshiping a god who from birth sends people to Hell without any right of opportunity salvation. That would be like Hitler taking the Jews from birth and sending them to Hell also without any recourse. This glorifies one of the most evil men who ever lived just as much as your god. Sadly, you have made your choice to worship such evil. All I can do is help you to understand the choice you have already made, how you have gone awry, and possibly by the grace of God may you be convinced and convicted one day to leave this evil tyrant you worship. Just know as long as you are breathing in your body of flesh and blood and still reject Christ, you have not blasphemed the Holy Spirit. You may yet come to Christ one day.

You've got to deal with the doubletalk of your god. In moderate Calvinism, your god openly says he wants all to be saved, but secretly doesn't want all to be saved. This bipolar and makes your god a schizoid god.

Job 15.16 is not saying man is Totally depraved but speaks of man's propensity to sin and willfulness. Revelation 22.17: The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let each one who hears them say, "Come." Let the thirsty ones come--anyone who wants to. Let them come and drink the water of life without charge. God is not vain. He does not give these words if man can't receive Him, so your theory is wrong: "He has no desire to take" of the water of life freely. God said the water of life freely may be taken, whosoever may come. And why? Because God has provided sufficient grace to all. This is in stark contrast to your god who doesn't provide sufficient grace to all, but irresistibly imposes the Calvinism salvation on some and passes over billions for not justifiable reason in the mind of your god. If this type of behavior is evil for man and negligent, so it would be for God of the Bible. That's how one can know the god you worship is not God of the Bible.

The reason you accuse Christians (Arminians) of saving ourselves is because you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. This is relying on yourself and is wholly apart from God desire for you.

The verses you gave prove God's grace is sufficient, that He is the provider. They give no basis for believing in irresistibly imposed faith. The condition is set forth: "If thou..." and "that ye believe". God gives you the grace to do these things if you were willing to come to Him with an honest heart. Alas, you are unwilling.

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The Scriptures declare that God has both a foreordinative will and a preceptive will (Deut. 29:29). Jesus Christ was murdered, a direct violation of the Sixth Commandment, the day He died on the Cross of Calvary, but the Scriptures declare:

Isa. 53:4: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

God never contradicts Himself, so where in Deut. 29.29 does God contradict Himself? "There are secret things that belong to the LORD our God, but the revealed things belong to us and our descendants forever, so that we may obey these words of the law." That there are things God keeps secret since He is God and we are men, and we can't even understand everything, how does this suggest God is bipolar with a secret will where He doesn't want all to be saved and another will that contradicts which says He does want all to be saved? Why read into the text that which is not there? How is that being humble? "For God so loved the world...that the world through him might be saved" (John 3.16,17). This is both His secret will before it was known as well as His revealed will once it was known. No contradiction! Get over yourself. Pride is oozing forth like a stream of dead water! May I say it is like you are trying to be God, trying to get into His head make claims about Him that are just not true.

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There is an instance where God used even the Devil himself to accomplish His foreordinative will, when it was a direct violation of His preceptive will:

I Chr. 21:1: "And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel."

II Sam. 24:1: "And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah."

I think you are being purposely vague with these two verses because you have to be. What is His secret will and revealed will in these two verses? And where are they in conflict? Satan conflicts himself, God never does. Since you couldn't precisely and specifically show a contradiction of God that you accuse, then you are worshiping your false god into the text.

You've accused God falsely of double-talk in this; I really wouldn't want to be in your shoes when you answer for that.

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No, the reason why God regenerated me was because Christ died in my place, taking all my punishment on the Cross. God applied the precious Blood of Christ to my heart, giving me a new nature; He forgave me because of the Atonement, not irrespective of it, as you've said erroneously. No, sir, you are not an apostle; those twelve men are with the Lord now, having accomplished their blessed work on this earth. You have no right to accuse me falsely, to judge my heart, to say that I'm an unbeliever. I'm saved, elect, by God's sovereign grace, and I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ, my Savior, my "advocate with the Father" (I Jn. 2:1), to defend me against these satanic, carnal, false charges.

Jesus died on the cross for everyone: "...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe" (1 Tim. 4.10). This doesn't automatically save you, otherwise that would be universalism or like Hitler saving an Aryan race and damning the Jews to the gas chambers. Without Calvinism this could not have been achieved. You really don't need Jesus for Calvinism salvation, because you are selected anyway irresistibly. It's all a charade. Paul said he was an Apostle, but you only count 12 Apostles including Matthias. Why don't you agree with God's word there are not just the 12 Apostles but all the Apostles? He was seen "by the twelve apostles" (1 Cor. 15.5) and "later by all the apostles" (15.7). I don't mind being called by non-Christians I am not an Apostle, because they are not even born-again; they can't understand since they reject God of the Bible for their false God and false Christ. God told me you are not born-again. How can I deny what God has revealed by the Sword of His Spirit, the Word of God? Mormons call God their Father also and claim everyone who is not Mormon is Anti-Mormon. Who is Satanic then? That which is proven by God's word: you are satanic, carnal and full of false charges because you are under the control and possession of the evil spirit. You know not what you do.

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No, the Pharisees who accused Christ falsely of demonic possession, as you've accused me falsely of it, are in Hell now, they were reprobate, because in so doing they committed the unpardonable sin (Mk. 3:28-30, Jn. 8:48). You do not exhibit the spirit of Christ, you show the spirit of the Devil. Spurgeon indeed was correct when he said: "I believe the man who is not willing to submit to the electing love and sovereign grace of God, has great reason to question whether he is a Christian at all, for the spirit that kicks against that is the spirit of the devil, and the spirit of the unhumbled, unrenewed heart."

Yes Pharisees are false accusers and are going to Hell. The Bible says nobody is in Hell yet, not even David a man after God's own heart. So you again, misread the word of God when you said, they "are in Hell now". The unpardonable sin, blaspheming the Holy Spirit, is only accomplished when Jesus is on earth, not now. Study the proof. I have told you the truth you are not a Christian for the reasons given in this thread. It is easy to see. You are unwilling as Spurgeon said "to submit to the electing love and sovereign grace of God..." The Devil is in control of you: you are unwilling to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. What else can God do but send you to Hell when you will be resurrected a 1000 years after Jesus returns in Person. You have the spirit of antichrist, worshiping a false Christ.

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You have attacked me unjustly. You have accused me falsely, repeatedly of unbelief, repeatedly of idolatry, repeatedly of demonic possession, repeatedly of assuming regeneration before faith and repentance, repeatedly of selfishness, of demonic control, of being a "child of perdition", of being a Satanic instrument, of doing Satan's bidding, of giving a "pretentious gift to Satan", of "Satanic grace", of calling upon a false Christ, of preaching a false gospel, of unwillingness to repent and to believe, of admitting to an unwillingness to repent and to believe, of pride, of "Satanic grace", and of selfishness. You can refuse or can rebuke any blessing or prayer you please, but that won't stop me from giving them by God's grace, as He has commanded, nor will your refusals or your rebukes nullify them, for I respecfully call upon God in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit to protect and to prosper any and all blessings that I have given you in this entire debate. I have authority to use any Scripture rightly, as I am God's child, despite your false accusations to the contrary. If the Lord will, I will continue to do so. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ in His Name to defend me in these things, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). All these wrongs I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).

You have "assumed regeneration" before repentance and faith. You admit it, for you admit you think you were Totally depraved that necessitates regeneration before repentance and faith. It was not your choice, but forced; so you work for your salvation since you really don't know if you are saved or not, since it wasn't your choice. Yet God does not irresistibly impose Himself on anyone. You're "unwillingness to repent and believe in Christ" keeps you unsaved. None of your prayers are by God's grace, for how could they be? You still reject the One True God. I have on the full armor of God and protected from false prayers upon me. The Holy Spirit continues to rebuke your worshiping a false Christ as does Christ is me by the Holy Spirit, and I won't deny my Lord and Savior on this point. The decision has come down from on high. So-called blessings from Satan through you are refused and rebuked in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Thank you Jesus! Amen.
11-16-2009, 02:35 PM
briancook007

No, sir, your logic is faulty. Acts 16:14 does NOT say Lydia was a believer, it says she worshiped God. The Greek word translated "worshipped" there is σέβω. Your argument is predicated upon the idea that because Lydia worshiped God, that that automatically means that she was saved. What saith the Scriptures?

Mat. 15:9: "But IN VAIN they do worship (σέβω) me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Mk. 7:7: "Howbeit IN VAIN do they worship (σέβω) me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Your arguments are the only things that are failing, Arminian; Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7 are Christ's quoting Isaiah 29:13, which is not a reference to any false god, but to Jehovah. Your assertion that these two statements by Christ refer to a false god show just how hard-pressed you are to defend your untenable position. Maybe that's why you don't produce the Scriptures to back your heretical position; instead of that, you do your best to distort and to pervert the Scriptures that I've given. It won't work, for it is written, "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." I claim this promise now in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace, in my efforts to defend the truth of His sovereign election, of Calvinism. Your anger also is evident; perhaps it reveals your desperation, for the Word of God has defeated your Arminian heresy all through this debate, whether or not you'll admit it.

The burden does not remain on me, this was Lydia's salvation experience; she was baptized immediately, just as the Philippian jailor was baptized immediately upon his faith (Acts 16:30-33). The passage does show irresistible grace, despite your attempts to sidestep the issue, for what saith the Scriptures?

Acts 16:14: "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, HEARD(ἀκούω) us: whose heart the Lord opened (διανοίγω, "to open thoroughly"), that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Jn. 8:43, 47: "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot HEAR (ἀκούω) my word. He that is of God HEARETH (ἀκούω) God's words: ye therefore HEAR (ἀκούω) them not, because ye are not of God."

Jn. 1:13: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God."

II Cor. 5:17: "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new CREATURE (κτίσις, noun form of κτίζω): old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Col. 3:9-10, 12: "Ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created (κτίζω) him: Put on therefore, as the elect of God..."

Acts 16:14 says that God opened her heart to the effect that she responded to Paul's message, regardless of your attempts to explain it away.

Saving faithisa work, not in the sense of man's performing it to merit salvation, but in the sense of it being an action on his part, for what saith the Scriptures?

Jn. 6:28-29: "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work (ἐργάζομαι) the works (ἔργον) of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work (ἔργον) of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Phil. 1:6: "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work (ἔργον) in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

Jn. 4:10: "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift (δωρεά) of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water."

Eph. 2:8-10: "For by grace are ye saved through FAITH; and THAT not of yourselves: it is the gift (δῶρον) of God: Not of works (ἔργον), lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

You Arminians hold that man contributes to regeneration, supplying faith and repentance apart from God's grace; that's heresy. Again, Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that Jn. 1:13 is in the passive voice, which means that the subject is being acted upon, and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. In regeneration, man is created (II Cor. 5:17), born again (Jn. 3:7); a creation cannot resist being created, no one can resist being born. It is God who performs the miracle of regeneration according to His own sovereign will, for what saith the Scriptures?

Jn. 1:13: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Rom. 9:16, 18: "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

James 1:17-18: "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."

"Studylight.org" defines the Greek imperative mood: "The imperative mood corresponds to the English imperative, and expresses a command [emphasis mine] to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order [emphasis mine] and authority [emphasis mine]of the one commanding [emphasis mine]. Thus, Jesus' phrase, "Repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mk.1:15) is not at all an "invitation," but an absolute command requiring full obedience on the part of all hearers [emphasis mine]." Rev. 22:17c & d are in the imperative mood, which means those statements are commands, not invitations.

You said, "I have noticed you are always wrong in everything you say." Very interesting. The unregenerate Pharisees held the same view of Christ, for what saith the Scripture (Mat. 27:63)? "Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again."

Yes, God has two wills, a foreordinative will and a preceptive will. Jesus Christ was murdered the day He was crucified, a direct violation of the Sixth Commandment, but what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 53:4: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

Regarding salvation and God's two wills, what saith the Scriptures?

Acts 17:30: "God...commandeth all men every where to repent."

Acts 11:18: "Then hath God...granted repentance unto life."

Acts 16:31: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved...."

Acts 13:48: "and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Acts 13:48b (καὶ ἐπίστευσαν ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον) is in the passive voice; again, meaning that the subject is being acted upon, and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. Regarding this, what saith the Scriptures?

Rom. 8:29-30: " For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Eph. 1:4-5, 11: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will."

II Thes. 2:13: "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."

The Arminian assertion that Rom. 8:29 indicates God's foreseeing who would believe and then His predestinating them on that basis is heretical. It's not what He foreknew, it's whom He foreknew. "Foreknew" (προγινώσκω) in that Scripture means "foreloved", carrying the same meaning that γινώσκω carries in Mat. 1:25. You Arminians explain Eph. 1:4 the same way, for it says that God chose us in Christ; your view is heretical. The meaning there is that the only way God ever could have chosen anyone to salvation was with Christ and His redeeming work in view; apart from Him, there is no hope. II Thes. 2:13 doesn't show how the elect are chosen, it shows how we're saved, "throughsanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth".

I have proven total depravity, for what saith the Scriptures?

Gen. 6:5: "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY imagination of the thoughts of his heart was ONLY evil continually."

Gen. 8:21: "The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth."

Isa. 1:5-6: "The WHOLE head is sick, and the WHOLE heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is NO soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Jer. 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

Jer. 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

Psa. 9:17: "The wicked shall be turned into hell...."

Psa. 10:4: "The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts."

"Psa. 58:3: "The wicked are estranged FROM THE WOMB: they go astray AS SOON AS THEY BE BORN, speaking lies."

Eph. 2:1-3: "And you hath he quickened, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were BY NATURE the children of wrath, even as others."

These Scriptures prove total depravity, for it is written (Lk. 15:24), "For this my son was dead...." The Prodigal Son had no communication with his father while he was dead, separated (cf. Isa. 59:2, Jn. 9:31a) from him. The Greek word translated "dead" in Lk. 15:24 is νεκρός, the same word as is found in the following, where it is written:

Eph. 2:1, 5: "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Even when we were dead in sins...".

Col. 2:12-13: "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses."

In Heb. 2:9 (ὅπως χάριτι θεοῦ ὑπὲρ παντὸς γεύσηται θανάτου), "man" or "one" is not in the Greek text; it's a masculine adjective, πᾶς, being used as a noun. "Every man" or "every one" is determined by the context, which shows clearly that that term refers to believers, the elect of God, "they who are sanctified" (vs. 11). Deut. 30:19 indicates God's desire that Israel follow His preceptive will; however, there are instances recorded in the Scriptures where God foreordains sin, brings it to pass for His own glory, as was the case with the Crucifixion. The finite mind cannot understand that fully, for it is written (Isa. 55:9), "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Unregenerate people can help a lady across the street, but, regarding that, what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 64:6: "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags."

Tit. 1:15-16: "Unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK REPROBATE."

The "filthy rags" in Isa. 64:6 are menstrual rags, what we would call today a soiled tampon. Not a pretty picture, is it? That's the best man can do apart from God's grace!

You've accused God of injustice in reprobation; what saith the Scriptures?

Rom. 9:19-22: "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

Again, Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that "fitted to destruction" is in the passive voice, which means that the subject is being acted upon, and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. What saith the Scriptures?

Prov. 16:9: "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps."

Jer. 10:23: "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps."

Isa. 14:24: "The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand."

Eph. 1:11: "...the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will..."

No, Paul was on his way to persecute God's people, he had an evil nature. God moved upon him irresistibly, changing his nature, regenerating him, because He was a chosen vessel to Him (Acts 9:15).

Yes, Ex. 4:21, not Ex. 4:12. Again, John Piper is not the authority; the Scriptures are. And again, in Rom. 9:22 "fitted to destruction" is in the passive voice in the Greek, which means that the subject is being acted upon, and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. Pharaoh was a vessel of wrath, performing the function that God had ordered from eternity. Pharaoh refused to release the Hebrews, but the narrative never once says Pharaoh's heart was hardened apart from it being said that God would harden it. Again, a careful examination of the Hebrew shows that God hardened his heart by leaving it in its natural state, that of a totally depraved, vile, wicked, evil, wretched sinner. That's what every single member of the human race, save Christ, is at the moment of his/her own conception (Psa. 51:5), and God simply left Pharaoh's heart in its natural state.

Don't you dare lecture me about idolatry, Arminian. If anyone is committing idolatry here it is you, sir, presenting God erroneously, saying that He loves every single member of the human race. What saith the Scriptures?

Psa. 5:5: "Thou hatest all workers of iniquity."

Psa. 11:5: "The wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth."

Psa. 53:4-5: "Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God. There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them."

Rom. 9:13: "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

No, sir, you are wrong. The hypothetical person arguing against reprobation in Rom. 9:19-22 is accusing God of injustice because He saves whom He will and passes by others, daring to question His holiness in this, daring to question His justice, as you are doing. You said, "That God fits for destruction is not without the person's choice in the matter." Did you even read what I wrote? Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that "fitted to destruction" is in the passive voice, again, meaning that the subject is being acted upon and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. That this is the case, that Rom. 9:19-22 says this, makes no sense to the carnal mind, which is why you Arminians reject it. One other point. You people never accuse God of injustice for having left the Gentiles out of His salvation plan for centuries, passing them by, having dealt exclusively with Israel, but yet you all say that reprobation is unjust. No, Col. 2:12-13 does not say "you were raised to a new life because you trusted the mighty power of God", as you've asserted. The baptism there refers to regeneration, for it is written:

I Cor. 12:13: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized (βαπτίζω) into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

Col. 2:12-13: "Buried with him in baptism (βάπτισμα), wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses."

No, sir, there's no frustration on my part, and your willingness to divert your own frustration and irritation upon me shows just how desperate you really are. You still don't produce the Scriptures to defend your position, as I've done to defend mine, because you can't; the Word of God reveals your Arminian heresy to be the false doctrine that it is. Your only method of argumentation is to try to distort and to pervert the Scriptures, just like the Devil who's motivating you.

No, sir, you Arminians believe that man makes the ultimate decision, that he provides repentance and faith in and of himself, that if he becomes a believer that he was smart enough to make the right decision apart from God's grace, as you've admitted, regardless of your feeble attempts to explain it away. Arminianism is proud, arrogant, and carnal, for it worships and serves "the creature more than the Creator" (Rom. 1:25), glorifying man's will above God's will.

How many times do I have to say it? Calvinists do not assume regeneration before repentance and faith, we say that man must do both those things this very day, this very moment. We say that the only way man does that is by God's sovereign, irresistible, efficacious grace, which is what the Scriptures say.

No, sir, that is the point before us. You Arminians do not believe in man's depravity, you say that, ultimately, he saves himself by having the smarts to do it. What did you say? "God has made us all smart enough to make the right decision...." That is proud, arrogant, carnal, wicked, and evil. Man has no hope apart from God's grace, he is "dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph. 2:1); His only hope is in a merciful God who chooses to save whom He will, for what saith the Scripture (Acts 2:39)? "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

No, Job 15:16 says, "How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?" Unregenerate man's thirst is satiated already with his own sin, which is why he has no desire to take "the water of life" (Rev. 22:17).

Yes, Jn. 3:16 does say, "For God so loved the world (κόσμος), that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Jesus made this statement to a Jewish rabbi; He was telling him that salvation was for the Gentiles as well as for the Jews, for what saith the Scripture (Rom. 11:12)? "Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world (κόσμος), and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?"

I Chr. 21:1 and II Sam. 24:1 show that Satan did what he did by God's sovereign foreordination, even though it was contrary to His preceptive will. There is another scriptural instance where God foreordained sin (Job. 1:21): "the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away." This shows that the people who attacked Job did so by God's sovereign foreordination, even though their acts were sinful. You've accused God falsely of double-talk in this; I really wouldn't want to be in your shoes when you answer for that.

Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Greek grammarian of modern times, says that the sense of σωτήρ in I Tim. 4:10 is "preserver"; so say Greek scholars J.N. Darby and George Ricker Berry as well.

No, sir, you are not an apostle; those twelve men have accomplished their unique work. You call yourself an apostle? Thatis proud, arrogant, and unscriptural.

No, sir, those Pharisees are in Hell now, ᾅδης exists now (Lk. 16:23, Rev. 20:14).

You hear me again, sir. I've said it before, and I'm saying it again; I'm not afraid of you or the Devil that's motivating you. By God's grace, I'm not going away, I will not be intimidated. If the Lord will, I will continue to defend the truth of Calvinism in this forum, as I now call respectfully upon the Lord Jesus Christ to give me the grace to do it, to His glory and honor, for He is worthy (Rev. 4:11).

<a repeated lengthy signature>
11-17-2009, 09:11 AM
Churchwork

Quote:

Originally Posted by briancook007

No, sir, your logic is faulty. Acts 16:14 does NOT say Lydia was a believer, it says she worshiped God. The Greek word translated "worshipped" there is σέβω. Your argument is predicated upon the idea that because Lydia worshiped God, that that automatically means that she was saved. What saith the Scriptures?

Mat. 15:9: "But IN VAIN they do worship (σέβω) me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Mk. 7:7: "Howbeit IN VAIN do they worship (σέβω) me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Where does the text say she worshiped in vain?

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Your arguments are the only things that are failing, Arminian; Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7 are Christ's quoting Isaiah 29:13, which is not a reference to any false god, but to Jehovah. Your assertion that these two statements by Christ refer to a false god show just how hard-pressed you are to defend your untenable position. Maybe that's why you don't produce the Scriptures to back your heretical position; instead of that, you do your best to distort and to pervert the Scriptures that I've given. It won't work, for it is written, "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." I claim this promise now in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace, in my efforts to defend the truth of His sovereign election, of Calvinism. Your anger also is evident; perhaps it reveals your desperation, for the Word of God has defeated your Arminian heresy all through this debate, whether or not you'll admit it.

Matthew 15.9: "Their worship is a face, for they replace God...with their own man-made teachings." To you this may not be a false God, but to God it is a false God. I don't feel angry, but you seem angry when you said, "..., Arminian". God will never save you Calvin's way, for that is not how God saves. God is loving, full of grace and mercy to provide sufficient grace to all that none should perish. You know not the love of God.

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The burden does not remain on me, this was Lydia's salvation experience; she was baptized immediately, just as the Philippian jailor was baptized immediately upon his faith (Acts 16:30-33). The passage does show irresistible grace, despite your attempts to sidestep the issue, for what saith the Scriptures?

Acts 16:14: "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, HEARD(ἀκούω) us: whose heart the Lord opened (διανοίγω, "to open thoroughly"), that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Jn. 8:43, 47: "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot HEAR (ἀκούω) my word. He that is of God HEARETH (ἀκούω) God's words: ye therefore HEAR (ἀκούω) them not, because ye are not of God."

Jn. 1:13: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God."

II Cor. 5:17: "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new CREATURE (κτίσις, noun form of κτίζω): old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Col. 3:9-10, 12: "Ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created (κτίζω) him: Put on therefore, as the elect of God..."

Acts 16:14 says that God opened her heart to the effect that she responded to Paul's message, regardless of your attempts to explain it away.

Acts 16.14 reads, Lydia "worshiped God". Where does it say she didn't?

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Saving faithisa work, not in the sense of man's performing it to merit salvation, but in the sense of it being an action on his part, for what saith the Scriptures?

Jn. 6:28-29: "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work (ἐργάζομαι) the works (ἔργον) of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work (ἔργον) of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Phil. 1:6: "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work (ἔργον) in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

Jn. 4:10: "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift (δωρεά) of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water."

Eph. 2:8-10: "For by grace are ye saved through FAITH; and THAT not of yourselves: it is the gift (δῶρον) of God: Not of works (ἔργον), lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Just as a work can be true it can also be false. It is false to assume regeneration without prior repentance and faith.

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You Arminians hold that man contributes to regeneration, supplying faith and repentance apart from God's grace; that's heresy. Again, Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that Jn. 1:13 is in the passive voice, which means that the subject is being acted upon, and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. In regeneration, man is created (II Cor. 5:17), born again (Jn. 3:7); a creation cannot resist being created, no one can resist being born. It is God who performs the miracle of regeneration according to His own sovereign will, for what saith the Scriptures?

Jn. 1:13: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Rom. 9:16, 18: "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

James 1:17-18: "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."

Arminians believe faith and repentance are gifts of God and can be received only part of God's grace. God does the saving, but man is afforded the choice. We are not robots. You are not born of the will of man by assuming regeneration without having had to repent and believe in Jesus Christ.

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"Studylight.org" defines the Greek imperative mood: "The imperative mood corresponds to the English imperative, and expresses a command [emphasis mine] to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order [emphasis mine] and authority [emphasis mine]of the one commanding [emphasis mine]. Thus, Jesus' phrase, "Repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mk.1:15) is not at all an "invitation," but an absolute command requiring full obedience on the part of all hearers [emphasis mine]." Rev. 22:17c & d are in the imperative mood, which means those statements are commands, not invitations.

Certainly requiring full obedience, but such requirement doesn't force it to happen. Thus, like a government demanding taxes, the person can still refuse. So ultimately, it is an invitation, not like sending wedding cards out, but that we do have a choice to respond to it.

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You said, "I have noticed you are always wrong in everything you say." Very interesting. The unregenerate Pharisees held the same view of Christ, for what saith the Scripture (Mat. 27:63)? "Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again."

I still find you to be wrong each and every time. You don't have the Holy Spirit indwelling your spirit.

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Yes, God has two wills, a foreordinative will and a preceptive will. Jesus Christ was murdered the day He was crucified, a direct violation of the Sixth Commandment, but what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 53:4: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

Certainly there are things that God keeps secret but that is no reason to think He has two wills, for He is one Being with one will. So not only does He not have two contradictory wills, He does not even have two wills. God is not schizoid or bipolar like you. The reason you invoke two contradictory wills is it is necessary to support the heresy of Total depravity. If man seeks medical attention for being bipolar why doesn't your god have to?

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Regarding salvation and God's two wills, what saith the Scriptures?

Acts 17:30: "God...commandeth all men every where to repent."

Acts 11:18: "Then hath God...granted repentance unto life."

Acts 16:31: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved...."

Acts 13:48: "and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Acts 13:48b (καὶ ἐπίστευσαν ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον) is in the passive voice; again, meaning that the subject is being acted upon, and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. Regarding this, what saith the Scriptures?

Rom. 8:29-30: " For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Eph. 1:4-5, 11: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will."

II Thes. 2:13: "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."

You don't show specifically how in any of these verses God has two contradictory wills, let alone two wills? Acts 17:30: "God...commandeth all men every where to repent"-He provides sufficient grace to all. How twisted that would be to command everyone everywhere to repent when from birth born into sin they could not and were not given enabling grace to do so. That's sadistic. Again, what is evil for man must be evil for God showing your god is evil and not God of the Bible.

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The Arminian assertion that Rom. 8:29 indicates God's foreseeing who would believe and then His predestinating them on that basis is heretical. It's not what He foreknew, it's whom He foreknew. "Foreknew" (προγινώσκω) in that Scripture means "foreloved", carrying the same meaning that γινώσκω carries in Mat. 1:25. You Arminians explain Eph. 1:4 the same way, for it says that God chose us in Christ; your view is heretical. The meaning there is that the only way God ever could have chosen anyone to salvation was with Christ and His redeeming work in view; apart from Him, there is no hope. II Thes. 2:13 doesn't show how the elect are chosen, it shows how we're saved, "throughsanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth".

Foreknow means foreknow. He foreknew all things by His infinite foreknowledge especially His elect, and "whosoever believeth...may take of the water of life freely". When the Bible says free will it really means free will. You employ your free will to refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated which is apart from God.

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I have proven total depravity, for what saith the Scriptures?

Gen. 6:5: "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY imagination of the thoughts of his heart was ONLY evil continually."

Gen. 8:21: "The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth."

Isa. 1:5-6: "The WHOLE head is sick, and the WHOLE heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is NO soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Jer. 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

Jer. 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

Psa. 9:17: "The wicked shall be turned into hell...."

Psa. 10:4: "The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts."

"Psa. 58:3: "The wicked are estranged FROM THE WOMB: they go astray AS SOON AS THEY BE BORN, speaking lies."

Eph. 2:1-3: "And you hath he quickened, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were BY NATURE the children of wrath, even as others."

How does quoting Scriptures prove Total depravity when you have to insert Total depravity into those verses? Since you can't specifically show any verse that teaches absolutely Total depravity nor reconcile that with the fact God wants none to perish, providing sufficient grace for all, one can easily conclude you are not a child of God but worship an evil tyrant who says to a person stuck in a well, grab the rope, but they can't even reach it. I only have on word for this-sadistic! Never confuse propensity to sin and willfulness with Total inability and necessity, for you can still help an old lady across the street. I know you can, so you can yet one day repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. God doesn't give a gospel of false hope to people, but He gives the gospel because we may all avail of it.

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These Scriptures prove total depravity, for it is written (Lk. 15:24), "For this my son was dead...." The Prodigal Son had no communication with his father while he was dead, separated (cf. Isa. 59:2, Jn. 9:31a) from him. The Greek word translated "dead" in Lk. 15:24 is νεκρός, the same word as is found in the following, where it is written:

Eph. 2:1, 5: "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Even when we were dead in sins...".

Dead means lost communication not Total inability, for can a person who is physically dead reject Christ? That God does the quickening does not demand that God does not give you the choice. Why read into the text that which is not there?

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Col. 2:12-13: "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses."

In Heb. 2:9 (ὅπως χάριτι θεοῦ ὑπὲρ παντὸς γεύσηται θανάτου), "man" or "one" is not in the Greek text; it's a masculine adjective, πᾶς, being used as a noun. "Every man" or "every one" is determined by the context, which shows clearly that that term refers to believers, the elect of God, "they who are sanctified" (vs. 11). Deut. 30:19 indicates God's desire that Israel follow His preceptive will; however, there are instances recorded in the Scriptures where God foreordains sin, brings it to pass for His own glory, as was the case with the Crucifixion. The finite mind cannot understand that fully, for it is written (Isa. 55:9), "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

"He by the grace of God should taste death for every man" clearly is every man. "Now when it says 'all things,' it means nothing is left out." (Heb. 2.8) Context! "Jesus tasted death for everyone in all the world" (v.9). "God--who made everything" (v.10).

To foreordain sin is not to be its author but to allow it for a time. Satan is the author of sin and evil, not God. You are getting Satan confused with God, because you are not a child of God. God uses evil for good, He is not the source of evil as is the god of Calvinism.

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Unregenerate people can help a lady across the street, but, regarding that, what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 64:6: "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags."

Tit. 1:15-16: "Unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK REPROBATE."

The "filthy rags" in Isa. 64:6 are menstrual rags, what we would call today a soiled tampon. Not a pretty picture, is it? That's the best man can do apart from God's grace!

A sinner's flesh is utterly corruptible. There is no saving it. Its only verdict is death, even the death on the cross with Christ. Never think fallen man means Totally depraved, for God can do better than mere robots who must irresistibly be made to do something like pawns on a chessboard. Let God open your mind from your shallow way of thinking. Stop putting up a wall between you and God.

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You've accused God of injustice in reprobation; what saith the Scriptures?

Rom. 9:19-22: "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

I agree with God's decision for the reprobate. I've accused your god of false reprobation since it is evil to send someone to Hell from birth who had no choice in the matter, could do nothing about it and was made that way. A parent who has a child that is mongoloid doesn't throw that child into the trash can like in Calvinism, but spends her life providing loving care and every grace possible so that child could make the right decisions in this life, no matter how handicapped. If that person grows up and and refuses God's salvation only then will they be reprobate, blotted out of the Book of Life.

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Again, Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that "fitted to destruction" is in the passive voice, which means that the subject is being acted upon, and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. What saith the Scriptures?

Prov. 16:9: "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps."

Jer. 10:23: "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps."

Isa. 14:24: "The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand."

Eph. 1:11: "...the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will..."

No, Paul was on his way to persecute God's people, he had an evil nature. God moved upon him irresistibly, changing his nature, regenerating him, because He was a chosen vessel to Him (Acts 9:15).

Stop worshiping men. Care about context. "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" (Rom. 9.22). Who is fitted for destruction? Definitely reprobate are fitted for destruction. But who are they? Those like yourself who refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Very sad. God makes it all but certain!

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Your idol is Total depravity, but you can't find no verses for it.

Yes, Ex. 4:21, not Ex. 4:12. Again, John Piper is not the authority; the Scriptures are. And again, in Rom. 9:22 "fitted to destruction" is in the passive voice in the Greek, which means that the subject is being acted upon, and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. Pharaoh was a vessel of wrath, performing the function that God had ordered from eternity. Pharaoh refused to release the Hebrews, but the narrative never once says Pharaoh's heart was hardened apart from it being said that God would harden it. Again, a careful examination of the Hebrew shows that God hardened his heart by leaving it in its natural state, that of a totally depraved, vile, wicked, evil, wretched sinner. That's what every single member of the human race, save Christ, is at the moment of his/her own conception (Psa. 51:5), and God simply left Pharaoh's heart in its natural state.

The first active instance of the Pharaoh's heart being hardened was his own doing. You're avoiding this point. You're also overlooking the fact that God being the determiner of those fitted for destruction in no way demands they are irresistibly made to reject God. Double predestination is just as evil as preterition. The Pharaoh hardened his own heart and against God's will. God's providential care handles all sinners and all sins. That's not the issue. The issue is the first active instance of the Pharaoh's heart hardened was his own doing and God allowed it. God did not cause it. He is not the author of sin; your god is, obviously. God doesn't pass over the Pharaoh's heart either. He provided him with more than sufficient graced to be saved by faith, but he refused and hardened his own heart first just like you do, and so you can see you are getting harder and harder. Calvinists are notoriously known in Christendom to be hard heads or hotheads.

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Don't you dare lecture me about idolatry, Arminian. If anyone is committing idolatry here it is you, sir, presenting God erroneously, saying that He loves every single member of the human race. What saith the Scriptures?

Psa. 5:5: "Thou hatest all workers of iniquity."

Psa. 11:5: "The wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth."

Psa. 53:4-5: "Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God. There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them."

Rom. 9:13: "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

You're a Calvinist, you're not born-again. I do not presuppose to be able to lecture a man who doesn't want to be saved God's way. You have made your choice, now you want to understand this choice you have made to go to Hell and worship a false Christ. God loves everyone, not the same special love for the elect who received Him, but His love extends to all persons to provide them sufficient grace to have the opportunity to be saved. There is no denying it, the reality of God's power to be able to do this. Your god has not this power and love.

Do you believe Jesus died for the sins of all? "The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1.29); "we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world" (John 4.42); "we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world" (1 John 4.14); "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world" (1 John 2.21); "He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone" (Heb. 2.9); "Since we believe that Christ died for everyone, we also believe that we [Christians] have all died to the old life we used to live" (2 Cor. 5.14); "...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe" (1 Tim. 4.10); "For God so loved the world...that the world through him might be saved" (John 3.16,17). This is not Total depravity, "Killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you!" (Matt. 23.37a) but "How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!" (v.37b) which is sufficient grace to all.

In order to establish your idol of Total depravity is true you must not only be able to find a verse that says a person can't believe in Christ because they are Totally depraved, but you must also reconcile and round out your theory with the fact Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and does not contradict Himself by secretly saying He wants only some to be saved and outwardly says He wants all to be saved. That will never do. My prayers go out to you that you will never be able to accomplish this so you should give your life to Christ today and stop worshiping the false Christ of Calvinism, for to remain this way it is clear Jesus never knew you.

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No, sir, you are wrong. The hypothetical person arguing against reprobation in Rom. 9:19-22 is accusing God of injustice because He saves whom He will and passes by others, daring to question His holiness in this, daring to question His justice, as you are doing. You said, "That God fits for destruction is not without the person's choice in the matter." Did you even read what I wrote? Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that "fitted to destruction" is in the passive voice, again, meaning that the subject is being acted upon and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. That this is the case, that Rom. 9:19-22 says this, makes no sense to the carnal mind, which is why you Arminians reject it. One other point. You people never accuse God of injustice for having left the Gentiles out of His salvation plan for centuries, passing them by, having dealt exclusively with Israel, but yet you all say that reprobation is unjust. No, Col. 2:12-13 does not say "you were raised to a new life because you trusted the mighty power of God", as you've asserted. The baptism there refers to regeneration, for it is written:

I Cor. 12:13: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized (βαπτίζω) into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

Col. 2:12-13: "Buried with him in baptism (βάπτισμα), wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses."

There is nothing to suggest whom God saves is by irresistibly imposed upon in Romans 9. You can't read into the text that which is not there if you want to be intellectually honest with yourself. It is the carnal mind that must assume into the text. Try to understand the difference between common grace and special grace. Israel received special grace, for God must bring in a nation to begin to present the law and usher in the Messiah-why not the nation that was enslaved for 430 years! They might have a heart to listen to God's pleadings. Job was not a Jew, before the time of Israel, so grace was upon the Gentiles, it was sufficient grace. Christians, OSAS Arminians, don't say reprobation is unjust, but the twisted version of reprobation of Calvinists is unjust, for you make God out to be Hitler sending the Jews from birth to the gas chambers without any recourse or opportunity for salvation? What love is this? You think of yourself proudly like the Aryan race irresistibly selected, but you are evil to the last.

Dipping a person in water never regenerates a person. It is a symbolic act after one is already regenerated. It should be performed when you have the experience of baptism of the Spirit. Don't get baptized till it is genuine and you are ready. Don't be fake like John Calvin was who was baptized as a child and thinks before he even had the choice he was made saved. Credo- or believers Baptism is the only true baptism.

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No, sir, there's no frustration on my part, and your willingness to divert your own frustration and irritation upon me shows just how desperate you really are. You still don't produce the Scriptures to defend your position, as I've done to defend mine, because you can't; the Word of God reveals your Arminian heresy to be the false doctrine that it is. Your only method of argumentation is to try to distort and to pervert the Scriptures, just like the Devil who's motivating you.

None of the Scriptures you presented agree with you as we have seen. "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Rom. 5.18). "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2.4). All men can be saved "whosoever should believeth" (John 3.16) "to the knowledge of truth" and "unto justification of life." This is a parallelism. Same "all men."

You're unwilling to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated: that's all one needs to know about you to know you are a child of perdition.

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No, sir, you Arminians believe that man makes the ultimate decision, that he provides repentance and faith in and of himself, that if he becomes a believer that he was smart enough to make the right decision apart from God's grace, as you've admitted, regardless of your feeble attempts to explain it away. Arminianism is proud, arrogant, and carnal, for it worships and serves "the creature more than the Creator" (Rom. 1:25), glorifying man's will above God's will.

How many times do I have to say it? Calvinists do not assume regeneration before repentance and faith, we say that man must do both those things this very day, this very moment. We say that the only way man does that is by God's sovereign, irresistible, efficacious grace, which is what the Scriptures say.

Arminians, as already discussed, believe God provides the gifts of repentance and faith which we may freely obtain to be regenerated. God is the ultimate arbiter, but never does He violate His own righteousness and holiness to not provide sufficient grace to all. This is the God you despise and why you are not a Christian. God made you with God-consciousness, a free willed sovereign being, to have the choice before you to either remain under Satan and in Calvinism or to truly come to the cross under the wooing of the Holy Spirit as a helpless sinner to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior. You think yourself smart enough to merely assume regeneration without prior repentance and faith, which is not genuine, but that is really dumb and disingenuous. Calvinists worship the creature more than the created because the creature of Calvinism self-exalts himself he can assume regeneration for himself into being and prides himself over billions whom he thinks God made for Hell irresistibly. Nothing could be more ludicrous! Nobody is more exemplified by this than is Hitler in his treatment of the Jews and the Aryan race.

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No, sir, that is the point before us. You Arminians do not believe in man's depravity, you say that, ultimately, he saves himself by having the smarts to do it. What did you say? "God has made us all smart enough to make the right decision...." That is proud, arrogant, carnal, wicked, and evil. Man has no hope apart from God's grace, he is "dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph. 2:1); His only hope is in a merciful God who chooses to save whom He will, for what saith the Scripture (Acts 2:39)? "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

We don't think we are as smart as you in your thinking you can assume regeneration without having had to prior repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. We believe depravity is depravity, not Total depravity (inability). The idol you erect for yourself is so you don't have repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. That's the bottom line. If you assume God hasn't given you the grace to be able to do something, then you won't do it and use as an excuse this idol from doing so. The key difference between your god and God of the Bible is your god is unwilling to provide sufficient grace to all to have the he choice. Either your god is unwilling because of his evil nature or unable because of his impotence. Either way he is a false god and you are a false Christian. That God saves whom He will does not suggest insufficiency of grace. God is infinitely able to provide salvation to the max, but never does He force Himself on anyone. That is evil! Your conscience is seared to realize this.

Whoever God calls are saved, but before God calls He must draw, though sadly not all who are drawn are called because men, such as Calvinist, "draw back unto perdition" (Heb. 10.39). You may come so close to God but, "It would be better if they had never known the right way to live than to know it and then reject the holy commandments that were given to them" (2 Pet. 2.21).

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No, Job 15:16 says, "How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?" Unregenerate man's thirst is satiated already with his own sin, which is why he has no desire to take "the water of life" (Rev. 22:17).

Yes, Jn. 3:16 does say, "For God so loved the world (κόσμος), that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Jesus made this statement to a Jewish rabbi; He was telling him that salvation was for the Gentiles as well as for the Jews, for what saith the Scripture (Rom. 11:12)? "Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world (κόσμος), and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?"

I Chr. 21:1 and II Sam. 24:1 show that Satan did what he did by God's sovereign foreordination, even though it was contrary to His preceptive will. There is another scriptural instance where God foreordained sin (Job. 1:21): "the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away." This shows that the people who attacked Job did so by God's sovereign foreordination, even though their acts were sinful. You've accused God falsely of double-talk in this; I really wouldn't want to be in your shoes when you answer for that.

God says a man may take of the water of life freely. You say he cannot. I will go with God. You can go with self. Does God offer us salvation when He says "come unto me" (Matt. 11.28) because we have free-will: "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22.17)? "He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him" (Heb. 7.25).

You never ask how God gives and how He takes away? How does God foreordain? Your answer is always selfishly narrow. You always assume it is by robots, overlooking the fact that God works evil for good. He does not cause the evil, but the proper way to think about it is, He accounts for all the evil and responds accordingly, allowing it for a time and deals with it righteously and accordingly. My God doesn't need to be a robot maker and besides, He wants a relationship with free willed beings, not robots. Let it go of self, so that you may come to Christ and receive Him as your Lord and Savior.

Jesus is pleading with you and "whosoever believeth" yet you are unwilling. What else can God do then but cut off His mercy to you and harden your heart?

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Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Greek grammarian of modern times, says that the sense of σωτήρ in I Tim. 4:10 is "preserver"; so say Greek scholars J.N. Darby and George Ricker Berry as well.

There is a difference between working in one's new faith and working for it because you really don't know if you are saved or not, because it was never your choice. Arminians gave our lives to Christ knowing we couldn't keep ourselves saved, placing our trust in God who keeps: "preservation of the saints". Whereas Calvinists work for their salvation (persevere) because they really don't know if they are born-again or not, not really.

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No, sir, you are not an apostle; those twelve men have accomplished their unique work. You call yourself an apostle? Thatis proud, arrogant, and unscriptural.

You totally avoided the point about the Apostles are for today, repetitively avoiding the Scripture given to support this. You are not a child of God so I don't mind you calling me not an Apostle. I would expect it. For if you won't accept the Apostles and the Prophets, what makes you think you will accept Jesus?

Paul said he was an Apostle, but you only count 12 Apostles including Matthias. Why don't you agree with God's word there are not just the 12 Apostles but all the Apostles? He was seen "by the twelve apostles" (1 Cor. 15.5) and "later by all the apostles" (15.7).

"He is the one who gave these gifts to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers." (Eph. 4.11). Let go of your contradiction accusing Paul of not being an Apostle: "I am the least of all the apostles.... And we apostles" (1 Cor. 15.9,15). Janias, a woman, was also an Apostle, but not one of the original 12 Apostles, just as I am Apostle for my region of churches.

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No, sir, those Pharisees are in Hell now, ᾅδης exists now (Lk. 16:23, Rev. 20:14).

"And in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom" (Luke 16.23). Hades (timeless unawares) is not Hell: "And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire [Hell]" (Rev. 20.14). You don't cast Hell into Hell. That makes no sense.

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You hear me again, sir. I've said it before, and I'm saying it again; I'm not afraid of you or the Devil that's motivating you. By God's grace, I'm not going away, I will not be intimidated. If the Lord will, I will continue to defend the truth of Calvinism in this forum, as I now call respectfully upon the Lord Jesus Christ to give me the grace to do it, to His glory and honor, for He is worthy (Rev. 4:11).

You're not a child of God, you're a Calvinist, who refuses to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. You want a selfish salvation, to stack the deck, but God doesn't give it to you and I wouldn't want to be saved your way. If I believed what you did, I demand that I go to Hell deservingly. Thus treating others as I would like to be treated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJG9lM9GDHg

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You have attacked me unjustly. You have accused me falsely, repeatedly of unbelief, repeatedly of assuming regeneration without prior repentance and faith, repeatedly of pride, of demonic control, of demonic possession, of having a false teaching, of being satanic, of being under satanic control, of "believing in Satan's lie", of believing in a false Christ, of calling upon a false Christ, of preaching a false gospel, of being unable to hear the Word of God, of being unwilling to hear the Word of God, of unwillingness to repent and to believe, of admitting to an unwillingness to repent and to believe, and of not being regenerated. You can refuse or can rebuke any blessing or prayer you please, but that won't stop me from giving them by God's grace, as He has commanded, nor will your refusals or your rebukes nullify them, for I respecfully call upon God in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit to protect and to prosper any and all blessings that I have given you in this entire debate. I have authority to use any Scripture rightly, as I am God's child, despite your false accusations to the contrary. If the Lord will, I will continue to do so. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ, my Savior, my "advocate with the Father" (I Jn. 2:1), to defend me against these satanic, carnal, false charges. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ in His Name to defend me in all these things, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). All these wrongs I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).

My prayer is one day you repent (have a change of mind: stop thinking you were irresistibly regenerated without having had to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated) and believe in Christ to be saved. That is my prayer for you.

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