Mor(m)ons Should Feel Ashamed

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08-06-2006, 12:48 PM
Churchwork

Mor(m)ons Should Feel Ashamed

Mormons be Ashamed!

You can spell it out for a mormon, but nothing shall penentrate the stony heart of an unabashedly overassuming moron man. "Who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, God and of the Lamb shall be in it...they shall see his face" (Heb. 1.3, Rev. 22.1,4). One face! One substance! One Being! I and the Father are one (John 10.10). "Who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself" (Phil. 2.6,7). Humility! Emptying Himself of His indepedent attributes. "Thou believest that God is one*; though doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder" (James 2:19). What shame to believe even less than the demons! "They have sworn by gods that are not gods at all!" (Jeremiah 5.7b). Indeed, God is not gods! "Hear this, O foolish and senseless people, who have eyes, but see not, who have ears, but hear not (Jer. 5.21). Moronicalism can not see; will not see! * God is one, not three beings.
01-16-2007, 04:42 PM
evan

Evan

Hello.

This is my first post (in accordance with forum guidelines).

I would like to say that I believe that God, Jesus and the Holy Ghost are separate beings, as I find attested by scripture.

Other than that, it's great to be here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

Mormons be Ashamed!

You can spell it out for a mormon, but nothing shall penentrate the stony heart of an unabashedly overassuming moron man. "Who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, God and of the Lamb shall be in it...they shall see his face" (Heb. 1.3, Rev. 22.1,4). One face! One substance! One Being! I and the Father are one (John 10.10). "Who, existing in the form of God, counted not the being on an equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself" (Phil. 2.6,7). Humility! Emptying Himself of His indepedent attributes. "Thou believest that God is one*; though doest well: the demons also believe, and shudder" (James 2:19). What shame to believe even less than the demons! "They have sworn by gods that are not gods at all!" (Jeremiah 5.7b). Indeed, God is not gods! "Hear this, O foolish and senseless people, who have eyes, but see not, who have ears, but hear not (Jer. 5.21). Moronicalism can not see; will not see! * God is one, not three beings.
01-17-2007, 03:18 AM
Churchwork

What verses?
01-19-2007, 07:55 PM
evan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

What verses?

The verses that I specifically look to are found in Matthew 3:13-17, as well as the words of Paul in 1 Corinthians 8:6

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
01-20-2007, 01:35 AM
Churchwork

Matt. 3.13-17 says Jesus is the beloved Son of God the Father.

How does this information help you in your beliefs of different beings in a social God, rather than a personal God in God's 3 Persons Uncreated?

The negative consequences are that you do not know how to reconcile the Uncreated Godhead with your Christ as being a created being by God the Father. Christians don't have this problem, for we have been atoned by the perfectly sinless God's Son Who is Uncreated. You have something lesser which is why you still need to be saved (born-again).

In the eternity of the past, the council of the Godhead Who is One Being derived a conclusion.
01-21-2007, 09:44 PM
evan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

Matt. 3.13-17 says Jesus is the beloved Son of God the Father.

How does this information help you in your beliefs of different beings in a social God, rather than a personal God in God's 3 Persons Uncreated?

The negative consequences are that you do not know how to reconcile the Uncreated Godhead with your Christ as being a created being by God the Father. Christians don't have this problem, for we have been atoned by the perfectly sinless God's Son Who is Uncreated. You have something lesser which is why you still need to be saved (born-again).

In the eternity of the past, the council of the Godhead Who is One Being derived a conclusion.

If you'll permit me a little argumentum ad hominem, I think that you ought to be ashamed. I find little to recommend your faith to me when you refer to me and others of my faith with statements like: "Now you know why they should be thought of as morons..." and "...unabashedly overassuming moron man..."

Anyway. Be that as it may, I find that Matthew 3:13-17 is a great example of the separate reality of Jesus and His Father. Here was have Jesus being baptised by John, and his father speaking of heaven.

Also, Paul's statement that I quoted in my earlier post also clearly identifies the distinct separation between God and Jesus.
01-28-2007, 11:34 AM
Churchwork

Appreciate the close ties to the word "moron" and "mormon". This is not a coincidence. In order to attract someone into a cult like mormonism, they must create feelers to see who is gullible enough to believe in such things. By overlooking the similarity of these two words you make yourself open to their deceptions. Ask yourself where such proclamations come from centuries later after Christ. Do you really think God places mankind in darkness from the 1st century to the 18th century? No, of course not!

As I have shown the distinct operations of the Father and the Son does not mean separate beings. One should not jump to that conclusion. A moron might overassume this, but let us be humble. In addition to Matt. 3.13-17, the same goes for 1 Cor. 8.6...there is only one uncreated being. No subordinationism, only the agreement of the Father and the Son and the Spirit that the Son would enter into the creation of the Godhead. Christianity has always been right. However, within Christendom many problems occur as depicted by Rev. 17, 14.8. There is "hostility even in the house of God" (Hosea 9.8).

http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/trintri.gif

Whereas I am atoned by the Uncreated Jesus, you are atoned by a created being you call Jesus. My Jesus trumps your Jesus. Be weary of false Christs and learn the humility of not overassuming anything. This is the nature of the Word of God and where its strength is derived. God is all-knowing. You cannot lose eternal life if once-saved (born-again). Find out what mormons think about once-saved-always-saved. The Roman Church also teaches non-OSAS. The reason why big cults teach non-OSAS is because this is a means to control you. If you do not remain in their good stead then you can lose life they teach. Do you see how this is a controlling mechanism?

Did you know ultimately the reason you are mormon moron is because you have a head salvation, and not a salvation in your spirit. Satan works from outer to inner from the head. But God works from the spirit to the outer. God quickens the spirit of a person to give them new life. Through regeneration there is a sensitivity to things of God. This sensitivity prays to One Being, not three beings. How impersonal that would be. When I pray, I pray to the Father, through the Son by the Spirit, for when the council of the Godhead created, the Father spoke, the Son created and the Spirit executes and renews creation.
01-28-2007, 08:18 PM
evan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

Appreciate the close ties to the word "moron" and "mormon". This is not a coincidence.

I most certainly do not appreciate it, and I agree that it is no coincidence. I find such a comment to be arrogant and rude. I also find it diameterically opposed to your professed claim of Christian discipleship.

Quote:

In order to attract someone into a cult like mormonism, they must create feelers to see who is gullible enough to believe in such things. By overlooking the similarity of these two words you make yourself open to their deceptions.

I find such a comment to be completely incorrect, and lacking in value.

Quote:

Ask yourself where such proclamations come from centuries later after Christ. Do you really think God places mankind in darkness from the 1st century to the 18th century? No, of course not!

I find that following the death of Jesus Christ, people turned away from the Gospel.

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As I have shown the distinct operations of the Father and the Son does not mean separate beings.

You have shown no such thing.

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A moron might overassume this, but let us be humble.

I find such comments to be completely lacking in humility.

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In addition to Matt. 3.13-17, the same goes for 1 Cor. 8.6...there is only one uncreated being.

Matthew 3:13-17 says nothing about 'one uncreated being'. Instead, it clearly shows both the Father and the Son as being separate individuals. Likewise, Paul's statement in 1 Corinthians 8:6 says, one God, the Father and one Lord, the Saviour. Two people spoken of, two separate people.

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No subordinationism, only the agreement of the Father and the Son and the Spirit that the Son would enter into the creation of the Godhead. Christianity has always been right.

I have no idea what you are talking about. Jesus is clearly submissive to his Father.

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Whereas I am atoned by the Uncreated Jesus, you are atoned by a created being you call Jesus. My Jesus trumps your Jesus.

Why? Because you say so????

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Be weary of false Christs

Oh, believe me, I am weary.

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You cannot lose eternal life if once-saved (born-again). Find out what mormons think about once-saved-always-saved.

I know what Mormons think about it. They agree with the Bible. It says: "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Now, this is in reference to the events prophesied in Matthew 24 (verse 13). However, it does show that one can only be saved after 'enduring ot the end'. Paul likewise comments: Heb. 12:15 "look diligently, lest any man fail of the grace of God."

Quote:

Did you know ultimately the reason you are mormon moron is because you have a head salvation, and not a salvation in your spirit.

I find your words lacking any of the love of God. Rather, they reflect your own ego.
01-29-2007, 02:46 AM
Churchwork

Be Ashamed for Calling Christianity a Lie for 1800 Years and the OT Monotheism a Lie for 4000 Years

I agree, it is not a coincidence as mormonism and moron have similar origins in lettering. Noticing this observation is discerning of us Christians about mormon-morons who believe Jesus was not uncreated. The obvious question is, Why worship the created?

Following the death of Christ, the apostles were renewed in their faith and the church was born from Jerusalem. The Word spread, and today at least in name Christianity is the largest religion in the world. That counts for something, for within Christianity is a very spiritual Christian few who God deems overcomer believers who shall reign with Christ with an iron rod during the millennium.

The distinct operations of the Father and the Son do not demand they be different beings. You have shown no reason to think so. This is the characteristic of a mormon to overassume. Hence the name mormon-moron. Don't let Satan rule you, but feel embarrassed by being a mormon so as to bring you to repentance from this assumed belief of different beings and atonement by a created being.

Quote:

Originally Posted by evan

Matthew 3:13-17 says nothing about 'one uncreated being'. Instead, it clearly shows both the Father and the Son as being separate individuals. Likewise, Paul's statement in 1 Corinthians 8:6 says, one God, the Father and one Lord, the Saviour. Two people spoken of, two separate people.

You are certainly free to introduce the new idea God is a number of different beings instead of One personal Uncreated Being, but there needs be evidence for it, to consider it. You would have to overturn monotheism of the OT and the monotheism of the Trinity in the NT. Since what you have provided so far does not help your case, know that you are living a lie.

The God of the OT is One Uncreated Being. Ask any Jewish person. This did not change in the NT. Therefore, to be humble is to remain in the same view. Separate individuals in the Godhead shows the Father and the Son are distinct, but they are not separate, nor different beings. God the Father is not a person, like people are, but He is the 1st Person of the Godhead. Person is a spiritual term to describe any one of the 3 Persons of the Godhead, and does not mean individuals. Stop trying to understand the Godhead in human terms. You will fail every time you try to do so.

Jesus was not submissive to the Father in the eternity of the past. I understand you reject His being co-equal with the Father, but that is your sin. Jesus only became Lord when He agreed to be given unto obedience to the Father for mankind. There is no humility in believing Jesus was a created being, for you would be worshipping a false Christ and fall under a false atonement.

Enduring to the end is unto rewards, not for or loss of eternal life. You see my God has told me by the Holy Spirit that I can never lose eternal life. I can however lose the prize, which is the reward of reigning in the millennial kingdom. That is to say, there is accountability in the time of recompense for believers. Consequence for Christians! God is just and righteous.

I know that you do not have eternal life. It is easy to see. In order to be saved, my prayer for you is to come to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior. And not just any Jesus, but the uncreated Jesus who is of one substance with the Father and the Spirit, co-equal and co-inherent, distinct but not separate.

You see God of the Bible is always greater than your god because He has infinite foreknowledge to know whom to give His life to so that it could never be lost after new birth. Your god is weak, for in his claim of saving at new birth, that life can still be lost. Moreover, your savior is a created being, whereas my Savior is Uncreated. Your ego is attached to an assumed position which you have no basis for. Don't you know Satan is the head of mormonism?

There is nothing left for you now but hell. That has been your choice all your life and remains so. Sin is committing to a false idea and not letting go. This is arrogance on your part and deceives people. My prayer is for your repentance so you will stop being a negative influence on other people.

Christians will always refuse the mormonism view of love, for it is not the love of the Uncreated Lord Jesus Christ. Whereas you live according to a man-made view of a created being which you call Jesus, the saved have God's uncreated eternal life. That which is uncreated and eternal remains so.

You can see the power God has given me and other Christians in the acceptance of the Uncreated Trinity by how the perfect sacrifice was in fact uncreated and the Spirit was given to indwell to be able to commune and to pray to the Father through the Son.

You need to know deeply how evil your god is by its claim there was no spiritual Christianity after the cross. Satan is the great accuser. Stop walking by the evil spirit in your spirit, but through regeneration may God deliver you from the darkness that controls you-a moron mormon man.
01-29-2007, 10:58 AM
Churchwork

evan, your answers which show your beliefs are horrible.

Trinity:
No - rejecting the Uncreated Trinity
Distinction of God's Three Persons:
No - rejecting the 3 forms of God
Once-saved-always-saved:
No - rejecting God's infinite foreknowledge to whom to give eternal life to
The 66 Books are the Complete Word of God:
No - adding to God's complete Word of the Son (see Rev. 22.18,19 what will happen to you)
Biblical tongues are languages only:
No - teaching gibberish babble
Apostles Agree to Use the Meeting Place Finder:
No - rejecting the agreement of the apostles
Jesus went to Hades on Friday, Resurrected Sunday:
No - rejecting when Jesus died on the cross
Advanced Parties and Harbingers in Every Sphere:
No - rejecting readiness so you can be antinomian
God Uses Hell at Judgment Seat for Believers:
No - rejecting the fire burning off the dross of false works so you can remain in your false works
Biblical locality sets the way for Christ's return:
No - rejecting God's desire for the organization of the apostles and elders for the churches (i.e., localities of believers) to set the stage for the millennium
Size of the New City approximates the Total Saved:
No - rejecting the informative purpose of the dimensions given for the new city (showing how few people are actually saved)
Scripture points to the New Earth as future Mars:
No - rejecting the certainty of scientific findings that has proven earth will be burnt up in a couple billion years (though Christ will return sooner than that of course as it won't take billions of years for believers to reach sinlessness)

Since you are so adamant about your answers and do not even accept the basics of Christianity in the Trinity, the distinction of God's 3 Persons, once-saved-always-saved and the 66 books of the Word of God as complete, know with certainty that you are not born-again and are going to hell because you don't want to be saved. This remains true because you do not care to repent from trying to alter Christianity. Can't you see this is the common theme down the centuries where one person or another starts a cult? It's not surprising for Jesus said it would happen in hostility to Him.
01-29-2007, 05:01 PM
evan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

I agree, it is not a coincidence as mormonism and moron have similar origins in lettering. Noticing this observation is discerning of us Christians about mormon-morons who believe Jesus was not uncreated.

You think you have the 'gift of discernment' because you call Mormons morons????

You think that 'Mormon' and 'moron' have similar origins in lettering????

Are you for real???

Quote:

The obvious question is, Why worship the created?

Why not? The Bible talks about people worshipping the 'created' as being bad. However, it is speaking of worshipping either the things that men make/create, or the earthly things that God has made, thereby replacing God in both cases.

Since believing that Jesus was 'created' doesn't replace God as the object of worship, nor does it make Jesus a man-made creation, where is the problem?

Quote:

The distinct operations of the Father and the Son do not demand they be different beings. You have shown no reason to think so. This is the characteristic of a mormon to overassume. Hence the name mormon-moron. Don't let Satan rule you, but feel embarrassed by being a mormon so as to bring you to repentance from this assumed belief of different beings and atonement by a created being.

"mormon-moron"?

You have once again shown that you don't understand what Jesus was even talking about! Doesn't 'love one another' mean anything to you?

Quote:

You are certainly free to introduce the new idea God is a number of different beings instead of One personal Uncreated Being, but there needs be evidence for it, to consider it. You would have to overturn monotheism of the OT and the monotheism of the Trinity in the NT. Since what you have provided so far does not help your case, know that you are living a lie.

The scriptures that I previously posted are a basis for my belief. Since you have not addressed them in the slightest, what further burden is there for me to provide more evidence?

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The God of the OT is One Uncreated Being. Ask any Jewish person. This did not change in the NT. Therefore, to be humble is to remain in the same view. Separate individuals in the Godhead shows the Father and the Son are distinct, but they are not separate, nor different beings. God the Father is not a person, like people are, but He is the 1st Person of the Godhead. Person is a spiritual term to describe any one of the 3 Persons of the Godhead, and does not mean individuals. Stop trying to understand the Godhead in human terms. You will fail every time you try to do so.

Yet the scriptures give many instances of God being separate individuals!

The Father is greater than Christ (John 14:28)
Stephen saw Christ standing on the right hand of God (Acts 7:55,56)
If Jesus is God, and the Father is God, we can either have 2 beings, or 1 beings (apparently). However, this is clearly addressed in John 17:11, 20-23-

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are....
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Thus we see that Jesus speaks of himself as being 'one' with God in spirit, not in 'substance' (which is definately NOT in the scriptures).

Wither regards to John 10:30-

The non-LDS scholar David J. Ellis gives the following explanation in his commentary on John in The International Bible Commentary (ed. F.F. Bruce, Zondervan Publ. House, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1986, p. 1249):

I and the Father are one (Gk. hen): The neuter gender rules out any thought of meaning 'one Person.' This is not a comment on the Godhead. Rather, having spoken of the sheep's security in both Himself and the Father, Jesus underlines what He has said by indicating that in action the Father and He can be regarded as a single entity, because their wills are one.

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Enduring to the end is unto rewards, not for or loss of eternal life. You see my God has told me by the Holy Spirit that I can never lose eternal life. I can however lose the prize, which is the reward of reigning in the millennial kingdom.

Please provide your evidence for support of 'once saved always saved' belief. You have charged me with not providing any evidence, and yet we find you doing exactly the same.

Quote:

You see God of the Bible is always greater than your god because He has infinite foreknowledge to know whom to give His life to so that it could never be lost after new birth. Your god is weak, for in his claim of saving at new birth, that life can still be lost.

Actually, you're wrong. Again, you provide no evidence, but that's okay. You claim that 'my' god is weak? however, you fail to understand that the question of whether eternal life can be lost or not has no bearing upon the power of 'my' god. If eternal life is lost, it is because of my actions, not any deficiency of the part of God.

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Moreover, your savior is a created being, whereas my Savior is Uncreated. Your ego is attached to an assumed position which you have no basis for.

You should not be talking about 'ego', considering what you have posted.

Since the power of the Atonement rested upon the fact that Jesus was sinless, which I believe, I find your statement to be without any basis.

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Don't you know Satan is the head of mormonism?

Reeeeeeally? Gosh! I had no idea.

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Christians will always refuse the mormonism view of love, for it is not the love of the Uncreated Lord Jesus Christ.

Huh? The 'mormonism view of love'??

How is that different to the view of love as described in the Bible?

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You can see the power God has given me

No, I can't.

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you-a moron mormon man.

I believe that you are probably quite sincere, which is admirable. But you have serious flaws in the way you understand and practice the fundamental basics of Christianity.
01-29-2007, 05:22 PM
evan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

evan, your answers which show your beliefs are horrible.

Right back atcha, buddy.

Quote:

Trinity

Quote:

:
No - rejecting the Uncreated Trinity

If you want to debate whether or not God is 'uncreated', sure, let's go.

Quote:

Distinction of God's Three Persons:
No - rejecting the 3 forms of God

I actually didn't understand a lot of these questions. They mixed different bits together so that I found that if I answered one of them, it would contradict my beliefs about the other. Very unclear.

I reject that God is 'one' being of the same 'substance'. I believe that there is God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Ghost. 3 distinct separate individuals who are united in will and purpose. You find the explaination of that in John 17.

Quote:

Once-saved-always-saved

Quote:

:
No - rejecting God's infinite foreknowledge to whom to give eternal life to

I reject the belief that salvation is, once 'gained', unable to be lost. The scripture I quoted says Matthew 24: 13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. You claimed that this relates to rewards, but it clearly says SAVED.

Quote:

The 66 Books are the Complete Word of God

Quote:

:
No - adding to God's complete Word of the Son (see Rev. 22.18,19 what will happen to you)

Obviously I believe in the Book of Mormon, but I also think that it is wrong to limit God to one book. Can he reveal more? Yes, he can. Does Revelation 22:18 & 19 say what you want it to? No, it doesn't. Those verses relate to the book of Revelation itself. Since the same is found in Deuteronomy, we see that by that same standard the entire New Testament must be invalid, as it 'adds' to the Mosaic Law.

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Biblical tongues are languages only

Quote:

:
No - teaching gibberish babble

Huh? Maybe I answered that wrong. I don't actually believe that 'tongues' as described in the Bible are as modern pentecostal churches teach. I believe the Biblical records says that the apostles spoke in other languages which were the languages of those listening, so that they could preach the gospel.

See, I said no because of this:

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Do you accept that tongues are known by the speaker though may be unknown to the hearer if the latter does not know that particular language?

That defies the Biblical point of tongues.

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Apostles Agree to Use the Meeting Place Finder

Quote:

:
No - rejecting the agreement of the apostles

Well, I think I said no as obviously I am not one of your apostles.

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Jesus went to Hades on Friday, Resurrected Sunday

Quote:

:
No - rejecting when Jesus died on the cross

No, I do not reject that Jesus died on the cross. Okay - I reject the exact times that you have given.

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Advanced Parties and Harbingers in Every Sphere

Quote:

:
No - rejecting readiness so you can be antinomian

I don't believe in the standard Christian concept of the rapture.

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God Uses Hell at Judgment Seat for Believers

Quote:

:
No - rejecting the fire burning off the dross of false works so you can remain in your false works

I don't believe that God will put anyone into a 'lake of fire'.

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Biblical locality sets the way for Christ's return

Quote:

:
No - rejecting God's desire for the organization of the apostles and elders for the churches (i.e., localities of believers) to set the stage for the millennium

Yup. This question did not make any sense.

Quote:

Size of the New City approximates the Total Saved

Quote:

:
No - rejecting the informative purpose of the dimensions given for the new city (showing how few people are actually saved)

I answered no as I don't believe that the size of the city is an indication of how many (or few) people will be saved.

Quote:

Scripture points to the New Earth as future Mars

Quote:

:
No - rejecting the certainty of scientific findings that has proven earth will be burnt up in a couple billion years (though Christ will return sooner than that of course as it won't take billions of years for believers to reach sinlessness)

New earth = future Mars?

I have never heard that before, and I cartainly find no Biblical evidence of it.
01-31-2007, 03:27 AM
Churchwork

Regarding the questions, if you disagreed with any part of them then you should answer No which you did but such No's are a direct rejection of Scripture because these truths flow from the Word.

Fact: the earth will be burnt up in a few billion years. Fact: the universe will continue on after that. Fact: many people will be transferred livingly from the old earth to the new earth. Fact: the new city is a physical city and resides on a physical new earth. Hence, Mars is that future new earth with the largest mountain in the solar system which John viewed from on that mountain in Revelation.

I think everything centers on whether Jesus is created or uncreated. If you worship a created being and not the uncreated God, then you worship a false Christ. Since the OT and the NT are in complete harmony in the 66 books, the complete Word of God, then adding words to the Word calling them the Word also is sinning adding to God's Word. These counterfeits can easily be exposed by comparing them to the 66 books to find how they don't agree, e.g. mormon-moron books.

Since the OT and NT both teach monotheism and not polytheistic moronism, at least accept the fact the god you worship is not the God of the Christian Bible. You would be worshiping Satan's replication. There were several popular cults that started up in the 19th century.

Bottom line: since the standard has long since been set between the OT and the NT of One Being God by revelation, and never was the idea introduced of multiple beings, then you would need to find something to support your claim. Since you have not been able to do so, know that you are living a lie. The verses you tried to use show the distinction of God's 3 Persons, but nothing is said about God being different beings or individuals. The position for thousands of years has been that God is One Being. The council of the Godhead of One Being agreed the Son would enter into creation to erect obedience to the Father to provide mankind a salvation and how to walk by the Spirit. We are in the redemptive design now!

An example might help you. Let's say you play a computer game, and the player character you choose is reflection of you. This is like the Godhead of the Father releasing the Son into the creation. However this analogy fails in that Jesus existed co-equally with the Father before, whereas you playing a computer game the player character you generated did not exist before.

The lake of fire is perdition (hell). It is an eternal separation from God. God describes it as such because He does not want you to go there. Because your soul can't be annihilated, if you remain a mormon-moron you will be sent there. Think of it as a dimension to keep you eternally away from the saints of God in the new city.

The Bible says Jesus is the great I AM as is the Father. The Godhead is so complicated, the only way for us to understand Him is to say that He is the Father, Son and Spirit, One Being. Rev. 22.1,3,4 says God and the Lamb have the one same face at the center of the new city, indicating one being.

1 Thess. 4.15-17 speaks of meeting the Lord in the air-this is rapture of Christians. You don't agree because you are not a Christian, that is, you have not been regenerated by the Holy Spirit. God has given us eternal life at new birth. We are His new creation which can never be lossed, though we can lose rewards if we do not endure to the end in the fulness of salvation. Salvation is not just new birth, but it is overcoming in Christ, even unto returning with Christ to reign during the millennium.

Christians never say God is one Person. That's a false teaching called Modalism. Christians, my brothers and sisters, say God is One Being (not a Person) who is 3 Persons. This is the God of the Bible-the Trinity. This takes humility to accept the true God, who is so complex that we accept Him as Triune in His expression to us of His Being. Only Christians have the humility to accept this. This is how we stand apart. If you can't accept it, then you are without the humility in Christ to accept it.

These are the correct answers:

Trinity:
Yes - Uncreated One Being Trinity
Distinction of God's Three Persons:
Yes - 3 forms of God
Once-saved-always-saved:
Yes - God has infinite foreknowledge to know who to give His life to at new birth which can never be lost
The 66 Books are the Complete Word of God:
Yes - there is no 67th book
Biblical tongues are languages only:
Yes - tongues are languages
Apostles Agree to Use the Meeting Place Finder:
Yes - Apostles will use the Internet
Jesus went to Hades on Friday, Resurrected Sunday:
Yes - Jesus was raised on the 3rd day not after the third day
Advanced Parties and Harbingers in Every Sphere:
Yes - there are always those who "overcometh" first
God Uses Hell at Judgment Seat for Believers:
Yes - baptism by fire has a role to play at judgment seat
Biblical locality sets the way for Christ's return:
Yes - church unity and organization is very special to God
Size of the New City approximates the Total Saved:
Yes - the size of the new city is not arbitrary
Scripture points to the New Earth as future Mars:
Yes - after the saints are resurrected and raised (raptured), and some return with Christ, the universe still has billions and billions of years left.

I think the most important thing in all of this though is that you don't have a quickening in your spirit to accept the distinction of God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit as One Uncreated Substance and Being as has always been clearly laid out. The reason you don't have this regeneration of the spirit's inner man to be senstive to God's Triune Being is because you are ultimately hostile and independent from God, wishing to remain so for all eternity and are seeking a higher status in hell through evil mormonism.
02-01-2007, 11:34 PM
evan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

Regarding the questions, if you disagreed with any part of them then you should answer No which you did but such No's are a direct rejection of Scripture because these truths flow from the Word.

Okay, let's have a look at these, shall we?

Quote:

Fact: the earth will be burnt up in a few billion years. Fact: the universe will continue on after that. Fact: many people will be transferred livingly from the old earth to the new earth. Fact: the new city is a physical city and resides on a physical new earth. Hence, Mars is that future new earth with the largest mountain in the solar system which John viewed from on that mountain in Revelation.

People are going to live on Mars???

Does anyone else here actually believe this??

I am not even going to bother to address this one! By all means, please demonstrate this from scripture.

Quote:

I think everything centers on whether Jesus is created or uncreated. If you worship a created being and not the uncreated God, then you worship a false Christ. Since the OT and the NT are in complete harmony in the 66 books, the complete Word of God, then adding words to the Word calling them the Word also is sinning adding to God's Word. These counterfeits can easily be exposed by comparing them to the 66 books to find how they don't agree, e.g. mormon-moron books.

More insults!

1. Please provide scriptures that show that God is 'uncreated'
2. Revelation 22:18 says:

For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the add that are written in this book:

Now, John writes "...the words of the prophecy of this book..."

and we compare with:

Revelation 1:1-3

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John: 2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Now, John writes: "...they that hear the words of this prophecy..."

Now, you want to talk about coincidences?? It is clear that John regards the Book of Revelation to be the 'prophecy' that is spoken of in both instances. If we consider that the Book of Revelation was not a part of the Bible - in fact the 'Bible' as we have it today didn't even exist then! - and would not be for many many years, then it is easy to see, especially when Deuteronomy 4:2 is examined, that John's words referred solely to the Book of Revelation.

Now, when we consider:

Deuteronomy 4:2 -
Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

Now, in a strictly literaly sense, Jesus himself did exactly that. Indeed, the Mosaic law was completely removed! Obviously we know that this is what was intended to happen, but the fact remains. Likewise, God spoke to many prophets after Moses, and their words were added to the scriptures.

Quote:

Since the OT and NT both teach monotheism and not polytheistic moronism, at least accept the fact the god you worship is not the God of the Christian Bible. You would be worshiping Satan's replication. There were several popular cults that started up in the 19th century.

I'm getting really sick of your self-righteous, insulting and downright ignorant behaviour. You really want to convince people that you represent God and that you know him? Then start acting like it!

Now, as to 'one' being:

We have passages from the OT such as:

Deuteronomy 6:4 - Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one Lord:
Isaiah 43:11 - I, even I, am the LORD; and besides me there is no saviour.
Isaiah 45: 5, 6 & 21
Isaiah 44: 6 & 8 - Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.

Now, all these seem to say that there is 'one" God, at least, that is how it is used by many.

However, as it is often said, scripture interprets scripture. With that in mind, we read Mathhew 3:13-17, we clearly see Jesus in the water with John, the Father speaking from heaven, and the Holy Ghost descending. While some contend over the meaning of this with regards to God's nature, I find it pretty obvious.

Also, lets see Acts 7:54-57. Stephen sees: the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,

Two separate, physical individuals. Some may say that this language, 'standing on the right hand' is symbolic, but no. It is pretty clear.

Now, there are others verses, but that'll do for now. John 17 is where we find the answer to: "How can there be only 'one' God if these verses from the New Testament say 3?"

John 17:11 - 11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

Huh? 'We' (Christians) may be 'one' even as God and Jesus are 'one'?

John 17:21-22 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

And here is more of the same. Jesus clearly says that he is not 'one' with the Father except in harmony, as he says that we may all be 'one' with each other, as he and God are.

Thus, this verse explains the earlier verses from Deuteronomy & Isaiah and the verses in the New Testament. God is not 'one' being, nor 'one' substance, but is 'one' in will and purpose.

Quote:

...if you remain a mormon-moron you will be sent there.

You truly do not understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ if you think this behaviour is acceptable.

Quote:

The Bible says Jesus is the great I AM as is the Father. The Godhead is so complicated, the only way for us to understand Him is to say that He is the Father, Son and Spirit, One Being. Rev. 22.1,3,4 says God and the Lamb have the one same face at the center of the new city, indicating one being.

Revelation 22:1-4

1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was theretree of life, which bare twelve the manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:

4 And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

These verses do no explicitly say that God and Jesus are 'one' being. Rather, if you look it in the preceeding verse, you can see that it is Jesus speaking 21:6, I think. Now, I admit that it is difficult to know exactly what John is saying if you use these verses to define a doctrine about the physicality and nature of God. However, we see from John 17, that this simply is not the case.

Quote:

1 Thess. 4.15-17 speaks of meeting the Lord in the air-this is rapture of Christians. You don't agree because you are not a Christian, that is, you have not been regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

I do not believe in the rapture as it is espoused by modern Christianity. Although it does indeed speak about rising to meet the Lord in the air, I do not believe that all the good people will be taken from the earth, and the unbelievers left to suffer. There is no Biblical support for that. Please provide some if there is.

Quote:

God has given us eternal life at new birth. We are His new creation which can never be lossed, though we can lose rewards if we do not endure to the end in the fulness of salvation. Salvation is not just new birth, but it is overcoming in Christ, even unto returning with Christ to reign during the millennium.

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

This verse says that you will be saved if you endure to the end, not that you won't lose your reward.
02-02-2007, 04:32 AM
Churchwork

Since the new city is a physical city, and the old earth will be burnt up, the physical new earth must be Mars since there is no other viable option.

Since nothing in nature happens all by itself, and no god exists all by itself, then we know with certainty the uncreated created. That uncreated is God of the Bible.

You are not saved because you worship a created ideology, not the uncreated God.

When the book of Revelation was written it was meant to be the final book of the books of the Bible, that is, the final of the 66 books just as Genesis is the first book of the Bible. 1, 2 and 3 John were written in the early 2nd century.

The books of the Bible that followed Deuteronomy do not add onto the Word, for they are in complete harmony as the Word. This is quite unlike adding mormon-moron books which do not agree with the Word.

Matt. 3.13-17 doesn't talk about different individuals, but the distinct Persons of the Godhead which is One Being: Father, Son, Spirit. One who is humble is a Christian in agreement with the monotheistic God of the OT and does not have a glaring contradiction of worshiping created being(s).

In John 17 the oneness spoken of is that of complete harmony in obedience. Just as Jesus was completely obedient to the Father, so may Christians be one. This does not mean Jesus is another being, for He still remains the same monotheistic God in the Triune Being with the Father and the Spirit of same substance.

Since the Father is spirit, you can't see Him, so you won't be able to see the Son at His Father's right hand. But you will be able to see Jesus one day if you get saved, by seeing the One face of the Father and the Son as said in Rev. 22 because God is One personal Being. God is not a Person, but Three Persons: He reveals Himself in 3 forms that existed in eternity past: Father, Son, Spirit.

The reason why Jesus is able to surpass all of creation in obedience to God is because Jesus is God Who is of one substance with the Father and the Spirit in the Being of the Godhead. Before the foundations of the world, the Father and the Son and the Spirit held council that the Son would be the one to enter into creation, the Spirit would indwell and our prayers would be taken to the Father.

The rapture of Christianity says that overcomer believers "alive" are raptured before the tribulation, while the non-overcomer believers alive at the time will pass through the tribulation for they were not yet ready to be received. This is shown in Matt. 24.40-41,42; Rev. 3.10; Luke 21.36. 1 Thess. 4.15-17 talks about those who are "alive" and "left" who were not "taken" (Matt. 24.40) before the Trib. The overcomer believers will return with Christ to reign on earth in the millennium with a rod of iron. Non-overcomer believers will lose the reward of reigning and be disciplined and made ready in outer darkness (which has no fire or furnace about it), outside the light of rewards of reigning with Christ during the 1000 years. At the end of the 1000 years all believers resurrected will enter into the new city. The good nations will be transferred livingly into the millennial kingdom, and after the 1000 years, rewards will be done away with in the new city and new earth.

Matt. 24.13 “Endureth to the end”—Always waiting, always looking for the Lord. The word “saved” here is different in meaning from a being saved in order to receive eternal life.

Since Matt. 24.4-31 is referencing the Jews and not Christians, this salvation is the enduring of the people of Israel in the time of Jacob's trouble under great persecution. If you don't know the Word of God well enough, you won't be able to delineate this fact. Christians are spoken of in Matt. 24.32-Matt. 25.30, and the nations are dealt with in Matt. 25.31-46.

For Christians, there is salvation at new birth, salvation in overcoming, and salvation of the millennium.

The reason you are not saved is because you admittedly worship a created being, which you call God and Father and Son, but this Son you worship is a false Christ because he is a created being, and not the uncreated Jesus. Similarly, the Father you worship is a created being you said is not uncreated. So hell is for you. This is the evidence which proves you are hellbound and in need of authentic salvation. My prayers go out to you that you may see this is the case.

Let us be grateful to God for the chosen nation of Israel, the first nation of people that God revealed Himself to monotheistically. Polytheism of the mor(m)on is incompatible with monotheistic Christianity. Mor(m)ons don't get embarrassed by their sinful and diabolical disagreement with monotheism.
02-04-2007, 07:57 AM
evan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

Since the new city is a physical city, and the old earth will be burnt up, the physical new earth must be Mars since there is no other viable option.

That is ridiculous. You have shown no scriptural support, only mindless repetition.

You are guilty of:

Insulting others - 2 points

and failing in these two rules:
(i) Love one another and treat others as you would like to be treated,

6. When discussing with others, respond directly, specifically and courteously, otherwise your thought is not conducive for fellowship and discussion. After a point is made and responded to, the former shows the latter's misunderstanding with evidence, but the latter just keeps repeating his same old misunderstanding or false teaching without support even though the burden of the proof is on him now. The petty self, belligerency and obstinacy of repetitive self-declarations expose the weakness of an argument in trying to deflect and circumvent the issue, especially by being coy. When someone does this, they are really pointing to themselves as the center and not God.

Quote:

Since nothing in nature happens all by itself, and no god exists all by itself, then we know with certainty the uncreated created. That uncreated is God of the Bible.

That makes no sense. You provide neither scriptural proof, nor sound logic.

If nothing in nature happens by itself, then everything has a cause.

No God exists by itself? That's your argument for the Trinity??

Quote:

You are not saved because you worship a created ideology, not the uncreated God.

And YOU are not saved because you do not obey God.

Quote:

When the book of Revelation was written it was meant to be the final book of the books of the Bible, that is, the final of the 66 books just as Genesis is the first book of the Bible. 1, 2 and 3 John were written in the early 2nd century.

Huh? Please provide proof.

How do you know that Revelation was "meant" to be the final book? Since you claim that John 1, 2 and 3 were written after Revelation, how can it be the final book?

Genesis is the first book because it is the first words of scripture that we have! It describes the creation of the earth. Your words prove nothing!

Quote:

The books of the Bible that followed Deuteronomy do not add onto the Word, for they are in complete harmony as the Word. This is quite unlike adding mormon-moron books which do not agree with the Word.

Guilty:

Insulting others - 2 points

and failing in this rule:
(i) Love one another and treat others as you would like to be treated,

Taken literally, the New Testament is a direct violation of Deuteronomy 4:2. You have completely failed to address this. People who are not blinded see that both Deuteronomy and Revelation 22:18 contain injunctions against people altering the commandments given to Moses and the Book of Revelation. John obviously never intended his words to be applied to the whole Bible.

You have offered no evidence in support of your claim. Again.

Quote:

Matt. 3.13-17 doesn't talk about different individuals, but the distinct Persons of the Godhead which is One Being: Father, Son, Spirit. One who is humble is a Christian in agreement with the monotheistic God of the OT and does not have a glaring contradiction of worshiping created being(s).

In John 17 the oneness spoken of is that of complete harmony in obedience. Just as Jesus was completely obedient to the Father, so may Christians be one. This does not mean Jesus is another being, for He still remains the same monotheistic God in the Triune Being with the Father and the Spirit of same substance.

So, please provide scriptural evidence of

a) one being
b) one substance

Until you do, you fail to address the glaring holes in your theology that clearly state that the 'oneness' spoken of is of purpose and will.

Jesus says that he and the Father are 'one', and Christians may be 'one. You claim that it means that "Just as Jesus was completely obedient to the Father, so may Christians be one", which means that Christians can be obedient to who? other Christians?

That is what your words say. What Jesus says is that Christians can be 'one' in their relationship with God and each other. Just as God and Jesus are 'one', so can Christians be 'one'. This explains how there can be 2 Gods (Jesus and the Father) and yet still be 'one'.

Quote:

Since the Father is spirit, you can't see Him, so you won't be able to see the Son at His Father's right hand. But you will be able to see Jesus one day if you get saved, by seeing the One face of the Father and the Son as said in Rev. 22 because God is One personal Being. God is not a Person, but Three Persons: He reveals Himself in 3 forms that existed in eternity past: Father, Son, Spirit.

Stephen saw Jesus are the right hand of God. You seem to say that that didn't happen.

Your use of Revelation 22 is wrong.

Revelation 3:12 - Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Revelation 14:1- And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.

Thus we see that the name is the Father's name, and the Father and the Son are clearly shown to be separate.

Quote:

The reason why Jesus is able to surpass all of creation in obedience to God is because Jesus is God Who is of one substance with the Father and the Spirit in the Being of the Godhead. Before the foundations of the world, the Father and the Son and the Spirit held council that the Son would be the one to enter into creation, the Spirit would indwell and our prayers would be taken to the Father.

The reason why Jesis is able to surpass all creation in obedience to God is because he was obedient! It is true that he was more than other mortals, but he was still a man.

Quote:

The rapture of Christianity says that overcomer believers "alive" are raptured before the tribulation, while the non-overcomer believers alive at the time will pass through the tribulation for they were not yet ready to be received. This is shown in Matt. 24.40-41,42; Rev. 3.10; Luke 21.36. 1 Thess. 4.15-17 talks about those who are "alive" and "left" who were not "taken" (Matt. 24.40) before the Trib. The overcomer believers will return with Christ to reign on earth in the millennium with a rod of iron. Non-overcomer believers will lose the reward of reigning and be disciplined and made ready in outer darkness (which has no fire or furnace about it), outside the light of rewards of reigning with Christ during the 1000 years. At the end of the 1000 years all believers resurrected will enter into the new city. The good nations will be transferred livingly into the millennial kingdom, and after the 1000 years, rewards will be done away with in the new city and new earth.

The scriptures that you have provided do not explain the doctrine of the rapture. When Christ returns to earth, as the scriptures call it "the coming of the Son of man", it will be to usher in the millenium. So you think that when Christ returns he will go away again?

Luke 21:
25 ¶ And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

and

1 Thessalonians 4:17
Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

You can see from these scriptures that the saints will be 'caught up' when the Lord returns. The 'tribulation' that is commonly being tossed around is not some future event. It is NOW.

Quote:

Matt. 24.13 “Endureth to the end”—Always waiting, always looking for the Lord. The word “saved” here is different in meaning from a being saved in order to receive eternal life.

Really? So, in your mind 'saved' = 'reward', huh? How convenient. Too bad that's not what it says.

Quote:

Since Matt. 24.4-31 is referencing the Jews and not Christians, this salvation is the enduring of the people of Israel in the time of Jacob's trouble under great persecution. If you don't know the Word of God well enough, you won't be able to delineate this fact. Christians are spoken of in Matt. 24.32-Matt. 25.30, and the nations are dealt with in Matt. 25.31-46.

You are using the word 'delineate' incorrectly. You should probably have used 'ascertain'.

Jesus is not referencing the Jews alone. He is referencing the people of Jerusalem, both Christian and Jew. If you knew the word of God well enough, you'd be able to ascertain this for yourself.

Quote:

This is the evidence which proves you are hellbound and in need of authentic salvation. My prayers go out to you that you may see this is the case.

That's not evidence!

More "mindless repetition"
02-04-2007, 02:49 PM
Churchwork

It is quite righteous, holy and logical to say since nothing in nature happens all by itself, therefore, the uncreated created, since the created thing can not have been the ultimate cause. The reason I am able to obey God is because He has given me His life. There is only one uncreated being, and He is the Trinity. Remember, this makes no sense to you because your spirit is dead to God: it has not been quickened by the Holy Spirit.

1,2,3 John were written as late as AD 120 and as early as AD 85. This poses no problems. Job was written before Genesis some believe.

Genesis clearly shows the beginning and eternity past, while Revelation clearly shows us the end of the dispensation of grace, then the millennial kingdom (Rev. 20.2-7), and the new city in the new earth in chapter 21 in eternity future. Scholars are not in contention about this. The 1000 years is reserved for the 3rd last chapter of the Bible, and it is a millennial peace, where the lamb and lion lay down together. It is not the time of wars and rumors of wars. Your conscience should convict you on this.

Following Deut. 4.2 we do not see an adding to the Word of God, but the filling up the law and the harmony of the Scriptures. There was no Scripture that added something contrary. The Bible prophecies the coming Christ in the OT to replace the sacrificial system. All that preceded Deut. 4.2 should not be changed, just as nothing prior to Rev. 22.18,19 should be changed. What you are trying to be is a legalist, that is to say, so strict in your interpretation, you are being unethical and constricting yourself. John obviously intended Revelation to be the last book of the Bible given such references of the Tribulation, Millennium and New City, just as Moses intended Genesis to be the first.

The evidence God gives of His being uncreated is that He says look at the mountains and the stars to know that nothing in nature happens all by itself. Therefore, know the uncreated is the cause who is the Trinity. So you can see it is impossible for God to be different beings.

Seeing Jesus at the right hand of the Father is possible, but it is not a seeing the Father, for the Father is spirit, but the Son is made visible to us. Jesus said no one has seen the Father, therefore, Stephen saw Jesus at the right hand of the Father, but not actually saw the Father.

In the verses you supply of the Father and the Son, you show a distinction of their Persons, but not different beings. This is how you always fail.

The reason why Jesus was obedient to the Father was because He is God. Only God is perfectly obedient to God. Only God is the perfect sacrifice. This is His redemptive design which you so far reject. Entering into creation the Son becomes fully man and was already fully God. To be the perfect sacrifice, he must become fully man to align himself perfectly with His creation. If he comes back as gold plates, He does not align Himself with man made in His image.

Jesus will not go away again when He returns. When the saints are raptured, He meets them in the air, then returns with the overcomer believers. This is most wonderful.

The sin of your belief of rejecting the Tribulation to come is to blunt the most solemn warning at the end of this age which nuclear weapons and a battle over oil in the middle east will be a central theme, and 1/3 of the people of the earth will die (Rev. 9.18). 200 million machines will congregate in battle (v.16). By blunting this most solemn warning, your conscience becomes more and more dull, showing you don't know the real condition of things and have no sensitivity to the Holy Spirit.

Endureth to the end in the passage in Matt. 24 is speaking regarding the Jews as pertaining to Jacob's troubles. God promises He will save Israel at His return, so praise be to God He saves those Jews who endureth to the end.

Christians also have their own salvation which is unto rewards to "overcometh" as spoken of Rev. 2 & 3 in the church age. In fact, any Jew who is saved to the end of the Tribulation, he himself must still believe in Jesus to be saved individually in the millennial kingdom. God transfers the good nations in the millennium, first and foremost Israel, because Israel will be the center of all nations from which Christ will reign. It is a most beautiful thing! Obviously, Christ is not reigning with rod of iron now (mentioned 3 times in the book of Revelation).

Delineate and ascertain that Matt. 24.4-31 is speaking specifically regarding the Jews as clearly different than towards Christians in Matt. 24.32-25.30. There are many proofs for this.

Having gained an understanding of rapture, we will now proceed with Matthew 24 and 25. These two chapters deal with prophecies concerning (1) the Jews, (2) the church, and (3) the Gentiles. Aside from what is found in the book of Revelation, these two chapters contain the most significant prophecies for our present age. Whereas the book of Revelation gives details, the Gospel of Matthew treats only of principles. These two chapters are not easy to read. Due to a difference in background, various students of the Bible advocate different interpretations on these chapters. In general, there are three varied schools of thought:

(a) that all which is prophesied here pertains to the church, as advocated by Benjamin Newton; (b) that all in these chapters is related to the Jews, as championed by John Nelson Darby and C. I. Scofield; and (c) that some of the material in these two chapters concerns the church, as we maintain. The reason for such differences lies in one’s understanding of who or what the disciples stand for: whether (a) the disciples represent the church; (b) the disciples symbolize the Jews; or (c) the disciples signify the Jewish remnant as well as the pillars of the church.

How to divide these two chapters is of utmost importance, else we will be confused by the first two schools.

Let us retrace our steps and once again review the background for these two chapters, as furnished for the reader of this Gospel in chapters 21 to 23. As recorded in 21.43 the Lord prophesies that the kingdom of God will be taken away from the Jews. In 22.21 we see that He charges the Jews to be submissive to the Gentile power. And in 23 we observe Him chiding the Pharisees. The “house” in 23.38 is the same as the “temple” in 24.1. There it should be stated as “my Father’s house”—but it has come to be termed “your house”. All this indicates that the Lord has clearly rejected the children of Israel. Such, then, is the background.

Before the Lord are two classes of people: (1) the rejected Jews, and (2) a nation that can bear fruits (21.43). In this connection, therefore, the disciples may represent (a) the Jewish remnant, and (b) the called out ones.

Accordingly, we have a combination of the Jews and the church. It is highly important for us to find out which section relates to the Jews and which relates to the church. In our view (and in the view of others too, such as D. M. Panton who felt that 24.31 is a distinctive line of demarcation), 24.1-31 pertains to the Jews, while 24.32-25.46 pertains to the church. This division is based on internal as well as external evidences, as follows.

A. 24.1-31 concerns the Jews, since everything here is literally interpreted; but 24.32-25.46 concerns the church since everything there is spiritually interpreted. For example, “winter” in verse 20 is literal since it is in actual fact a difficult thing to flee in the winter (“sabbath” too is literal); “summer” in verse 32, however, is to be spiritually interpreted since it points to the soon coming of the kingdom (while the “fig tree” refers to the nation of Israel). Or as another example, in verse 26 “the inner chambers” must be interpreted literally, whereas in verse 43 “the house” is to be interpreted spiritually. Hence what concerns the Jews is to be literally interpreted; but what concerns the church is to be spiritually interpreted (see Matt. 13.11-13).

B. The part before 24.31 is full of Jewish background, as is made clear by the usage of such terms as “the holy place” (v.15), “in Judea” (v.16), and “sabbath” (v.20); but the part after 24.31 is plainly without any localized restriction in its terminology.

C. The things mentioned before 24.31 are physical in nature, whereas all those things mentioned afterwards are moral in character. For instance, the nations, the mothers with children, and the children mentioned in the first part are all physical or literal in meaning; yet the virgins, the servants and the householder, and the goats and the sheep cited in chapter 25 have moral implications about them. In addition, “go . . . forth” in 24.26 and “went forth” in 25.1 are different in character, with the former being literal and the latter being moral in their implications.

D. Before 24.31 there is no moral demand included; what is required is to flee. But after 24.31 there are moral demands presented, such as watch, be ready, and so forth—which actions are the responsibilities of the saints at the end time.

E. Since the Jews are still expecting the Messiah, there are false Christs being mentioned before 24.31; but there is no word about false Christs after 24.31, because the latter part is addressed to the church.

To sum up, then, Matthew 24.4-31 speaks to the Jews; Matthew 24.32-25.30 speaks to the church; and Matthew 25.31-46 speaks to the church about the Gentiles. Perhaps an outline of this would be helpful, as follows:
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/matt24prophecies.gif

The reason you are going to hell is because you admit you worship a created being, which is actually just an idol in your mind above the uncreated God. For millennia the Jews and the Christians have only ever worshiped the uncreated God, nothing about a created being.

p.s. evan, the infractions you received were most appropriate, which you could find nothing wrong with.
02-09-2007, 10:08 PM
evan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

It is quite righteous, holy and logical to say since nothing in nature happens all by itself, therefore, the uncreated created, since the created thing can not have been the ultimate cause. The reason I am able to obey God is because He has given me His life. There is only one uncreated being, and He is the Trinity. Remember, this makes no sense to you because your spirit is dead to God: it has not been quickened by the Holy Spirit.

No, it makes no sense because it is not true. You do not obey God, as God teaches that we are to love each other, and your words clearly show that this is not the case. Thus we clearly see that you love your self more than God.

John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Quote:

1,2,3 John were written as late as AD 120 and as early as AD 85. This poses no problems. Job was written before Genesis some believe.

Since the Book of Revelation was written AD 90 thereabouts, it is clearly not intended to be the last book, or it would have been. Whilst it is a good placet o finish the Biblical record, as I have pointed out, John clearly intended the the passage in Revelation 22:18-19 to apply to the Book of Revelation specifically. You have failed to address this, as I have clearly shown from scripture.

Quote:

Genesis clearly shows the beginning and eternity past, while Revelation clearly shows us the end of the dispensation of grace, then the millennial kingdom (Rev. 20.2-7), and the new city in the new earth in chapter 21 in eternity future. Scholars are not in contention about this. The 1000 years is reserved for the 3rd last chapter of the Bible, and it is a millennial peace, where the lamb and lion lay down together. It is not the time of wars and rumors of wars. Your conscience should convict you on this.

As great as the is, Genesis is clearly the first of the Biblical record, despite whatever speculations you offer about the book of Job. However, that same rational, whilst appropriate in placing the Book of Revelation at the end, is clearly not appropriate given the fact that

a) It ISN'T the last book written
and
b) John clearly states that the Book of Revelation constitutes the 'prophecy' he speaks of, thus limiting Revelation 22:18-19 to that specific book.

Quote:

Following Deut. 4.2 we do not see an adding to the Word of God, but the filling up the law and the harmony of the Scriptures. There was no Scripture that added something contrary. The Bible prophecies the coming Christ in the OT to replace the sacrificial system. All that preceded Deut. 4.2 should not be changed, just as nothing prior to Rev. 22.18,19 should be changed. What you are trying to be is a legalist, that is to say, so strict in your interpretation, you are being unethical and constricting yourself. John obviously intended Revelation to be the last book of the Bible given such references of the Tribulation, Millennium and New City, just as Moses intended Genesis to be the first.

Please provide evidence from scripture that the Bible prophesied that Jesus would replace the sacrificial system of the OT.

Quote:

The evidence God gives of His being uncreated is that He says look at the mountains and the stars to know that nothing in nature happens all by itself. Therefore, know the uncreated is the cause who is the Trinity. So you can see it is impossible for God to be different beings.

That is terrible logic, and it doesn't make sense! I figure that that doesn't bother you, as long as it fits in with your beliefs. Your 'logic' says nothing about how God cannot be different beings.

Quote:

Seeing Jesus at the right hand of the Father is possible, but it is not a seeing the Father, for the Father is spirit, but the Son is made visible to us. Jesus said no one has seen the Father, therefore, Stephen saw Jesus at the right hand of the Father, but not actually saw the Father.

I am aware of scriptures which people claim say that no one can see God. Let us examine some of this:

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

This seems pretty straightforward.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

Now, we see that John includes "...he which is of God...", which still seems in harmony with only Jesus seeing God.

1 John 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

Still straightforward.

3 John 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

Now John says that those who do evil have not seen God. However, this may be relating to Jesus, as 'that which is good' that we should follow. However, I see John's use of words as saying that those who do good are 'of God', which is also found in John 6:46.

Deuteronomy 33:1 And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.

Moses here is referred to as a 'man of God'.

1 Kings 17:18 And she said unto Elijah, What have I to do with thee, O thou man of God? art thou come unto me to call my sin to remembrance, and to slay my son?

And here Elijah is referred to as a 'man of God'.

In 3 John 1:11, John is writing about a wicked man who is not of God.

3 John 1:9-10 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.
Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth, prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith, neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would, and casteth them out of the church.

3 John 1:11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

Whilst John could correctly be interpreted as using Jesus as the example of 'that which is good', we also see that he says that 'he that doeth evil' hasn't seen God, and that it is the evil acts that are preventing this. This implies that a man who does good can indeed see God. It is the wicked who are prevented from seeing God.

Quote:

In the verses you supply of the Father and the Son, you show a distinction of their Persons, but not different beings. This is how you always fail.

The 'distinction of their Persons' is showing the different beings. You present no evidence to the contrary, yet again.

Jesus himself clearly sets out how he and the Father are one in John 17. Whilst you very very briefly addressed that issue with opinion, and you present no other evidence to show that Jesus and GOd are different beings, apart from one verse in Revelation that I have shown to be speaking about Jesus alone.

Quote:

The reason why Jesus was obedient to the Father was because He is God. Only God is perfectly obedient to God. Only God is the perfect sacrifice. This is His redemptive design which you so far reject. Entering into creation the Son becomes fully man and was already fully God. To be the perfect sacrifice, he must become fully man to align himself perfectly with His creation. If he comes back as gold plates, He does not align Himself with man made in His image.

Comes back as gold plates??? Huh?? What are you talking about??

Quote:

Jesus will not go away again when He returns. When the saints are raptured, He meets them in the air, then returns with the overcomer believers. This is most wonderful.

You haven't addressed the scriptures that I offered.

Quote:

The sin of your belief of rejecting the Tribulation to come is to blunt the most solemn warning at the end of this age which nuclear weapons and a battle over oil in the middle east will be a central theme, and 1/3 of the people of the earth will die (Rev. 9.18). 200 million machines will congregate in battle (v.16). By blunting this most solemn warning, your conscience becomes more and more dull, showing you don't know the real condition of things and have no sensitivity to the Holy Spirit.

You seem to think that just because a person believes certain doctrines, that is enough to produce salvation and faith. You fail to see that this is not correct, I am not sure why. However, it is faith in Jesus Christ as Saviour that is the basis of faith, and you have shown no evidence that God does not save those who believe that God is 'uncreated'.

Furthermore, you appear to claim that because I don't believe in the Tribulation, which is not Biblically supported (and for which you give no scriptural support), I am 'dull' to the Holy Ghost.

You give no scriptual support for this, except offering some scriptures to 'back-up' your beliefs and then stating "If you don't believe this you have no sensitivity to the Holy Ghost".

Quote:

Endureth to the end in the passage in Matt. 24 is speaking regarding the Jews as pertaining to Jacob's troubles. God promises He will save Israel at His return, so praise be to God He saves those Jews who endureth to the end.

Is that so? Then why was Jesus speaking to his disciples, who were Christians, when he told them that those who endure would be saved?

I see now that you have changed your topic. Before you were claiming that 'saved' int his verse means 'rewards', and now you claim that Jesus was actually speaking to the Jews.

Quote:

Delineate and ascertain that Matt. 24.4-31 is speaking specifically regarding the Jews as clearly different than towards Christians in Matt. 24.32-25.30. There are many proofs for this.

Again you use the word 'delineate'. The dictionary defines it as:

1. to trace the outline of; sketch or trace in outline; represent pictorially: He delineated the state of Texas on the map with a red pencil.

2. to portray in words; describe or outline with precision: In her speech she delineated the city plan with great care.

Matthew 24:4-31 is clearly spoken to his disciples, who were Christian.

Matthew 24:3 [i]And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?[i/]

This was not a public comment. Whilst Jesus was speaking about events that would include the Jews, he also stated:

Matthew 24:9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

and

Matthew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

I don't know who you copied that text about Matthew 24 from, but it is clearly incorrect in its assumptions.

Yes, Jesus speaks of the Jews and events in verses 1-31. However, he is speaking to his disciples, not the general public. And yes, he is speaking to his disciples from 32 onwards, and he includes much spiritual counsel. But your belief that he is speaking to the Jews and then to the Christians is wrong. Why? Because the whole time he is speaking to his disciples! There is no mention of verses 1-31 restricted to the Jews, andthen 32 onwards to Christians.

Quote:

p.s. evan, the infractions you received were most appropriate, which you could find nothing wrong with.

I found them to be completely wrong. I find that you should no longer be allowed to post here, considering that you have broken so many just in your postings with me. Yet you flagrantly flout your own rules and apply them to others whom you disagree with, all the while insulting my faith, and me personally.

Quote:

Reason:
-------
Signature Rule Violation

Repetitive Mindless Accusations - Violating Board Etiquette #6.

Since Christianity has never found, nor do you provide any evidence for your idea in the Bible, nor do you even try to show it, by self-declarations of God being created, know that you are like Satan with such proclamations and accusations against Christians.

You're a bad person and can't repent because John 3.18 says you are already condemned. How sad for you.

Since you never offered the chance for me to explain my statements, which I have repeatedly offered you (and you rarely offer anything other than opinion), and since you yourself constantly break your own rules, I find your use of infractions to be highly hypocritical.

Quote:

Reason:
-------
Signature Rule Violation

Repeating self-declarations - Violating Board Etiquette #6.

Since you still have no evidence for Christianity being wrong that God is uncreated, and you find no support for your idea in the Bible, know that you are sinning.

Don't be a clanging bell.
02-11-2007, 12:13 AM
Churchwork

evan,

Don't accuse that I don't love you, for I do love you. And I tell you the truth because I don't want you to go to hell. I would not wish this on my worse enemy. Presently you are on the course for hell because you have not accepted the uncreated Jesus as your Savior, but prefer to believe in a created concoction as taught by the cult of mormonism. Due to your selfishness, you have done this to yourself, willingly accepted their lie and the lie of one man Joseph Smith who rejected Christ and Christianity. So you are without the love of the Lord in your life, because you reject Jesus as the 2nd Person in the Trinity as being uncreated. And so, John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. Because you do not have the love of the Lord, you seek to alter His loving Word by trying to make the Father, the Son and Spirit created separate beings instead of the One and Only Uncreated Triune Being. At least realize you are not Christian as Christianity has long since been conveyed in the 66 books of the Bible.

The book of Revelation was written AD 95/96 which is clearly the last book of the Bible intended since it speaks of eternity future in the new city. Rev. 22.18,19 as part of the summary book of the Bible sums up any alterations one may make in all of the 66 books of the Bible. As Gen. 1 gives us eternity past, Rev. 21 gives us eternity future. Rev. 22 gives us the last warning. Gen. 3 gives us the details of Gen. 2. Rev. 12 to 19 give us the details of Rev. 6 to 11. Rev. 2 & 3 are the church age, concurrent with Rev. 6. Rev. 4 is the picture of the universe from heaven. Rev. 5 is Lamb slain on the cross along with the first seal which shows the arrow has been shot out of the bow giving Satan a deadly wound at the cross. God seals the 66 books by the number 66 too. 6 is the number of Satan, but also the number of man because man loves Satan's ways, and the redemptive design separates these two in the 66 books. Mormons and the Roman Church and the Eastern Church seek to add books to the 66 books of God's Word. God will judge you for this sin according to Rev. 22.18,19. The millennial kingdom (Rev. 20) separates the dispensation of grace from eternity future. The 1000 years is a transition period when Christ reigns on earth before the new city and new earth commences. God works not in jerky motions, but flows from one dispensation to the next.

Revelation is the last book written for the 66 books of the Bible-the complete Word of God (John 1.1). Rev. 22.18,19 not only involves this book of Revelation, but may be extended to all the books of the Bible because Revelation sums up all the books of the Bible.

Messiah was to die as a sacrifice for sin, vicarious sacrifice (Is. 53.5,6,8,10,11,12; John 1.29, 11.49-52, Acts 10.43, 13.38,39, Rom. 5.6,8). In Matt. 5, Jesus fills up the law so we no longer live by the law, but by the Spirit of the law indwelling for the veil is now rent. Take a look at Matt. 5.17 where Jesus came to "fulfill them," that is, the law and the writings of the prophets. He did not abolish the law, but came to fill it up. For example, verse 21 says you should not murder, but then Jesus said "if you are angry with someone, you are subject to judgment". The sacrifices are shadows of the work of the cross. The blood is sprinkled on the altar which represents the cross where the precious blood was spilt. We do not continue to slaughter animals as sacrifices for Jesus is the perfect sacrifice. Have you not the faith to believe the perfect sacrifice to be uncreated? I am saved by His paying the eternal price for the forgiveness of my sins because He is uncreated and died for me which I have accepted freely and can never be lost, but you don't have this eternal blessing because you worship a facsimile which you make a created being in your selfish image. This is your great sin and why you will be eternally separated from God when you are judged at Great White Throne and cast into the lake of fire. This is not love that you want this.

God cannot be different beings because then you have created beings and a God that is impersonal social construct instead a personal singular Triune Being that has always existed. My God has always existed who created you and me, so He trumps your god always because you admit your god is created. Since nothing in nature happens all by itself and nothing in the supernatural happens all by itself, then the ultimate creator cannot himself be created, because if he was, then you would have to ask who created him. And to keep asking this question of who created who is to say there is an eternity of the past of gods creating gods, but this is not possible because that would mean you had an eternity of the past to be sinless, yet you still sin. The exponential progression in our conscience these past 6000 years shows it will not take much longer to reach sinlessness in the saved, so one knows without a doubt there was not an eternity of the past of causes and effects for you to attain sinlessness, but you were created by the uncreated creator. However, we both know your spirit is dead to God and your conscience can't accept this simple reasoning because you are hellbound and don't want to be saved.

The one who is capable of doing good is the man who has accepted the uncreated Savior Jesus Christ. A man who does good by the "good self" whilst still rejecting Jesus as being uncreated and as the personal Savior in the Trinity is a man still hostile and separated from God. You are a person who still is hostile to God. You can't see God, nor will God reveal Himself to you until you accepted Jesus as being uncreated because your personal problem is rejecting the uncreatedness of God. Different people have their different things they use to reject God, but yours is that you reject Him being uncreated; therefore, all you have is hell which is a blessing to Christians to keep you eternally separated from us because you admit to us now you never want to be saved as we are saved. We will no longer shed a tear for you in the new city.

The distinctions of the 3 Persons are distinctions, nothing about separate beings; that is why Christianity has always believed in the distinct Persons of the Godhead and never anything about different beings. Christianity is monotheistic, not polytheistic or tritheistic. Your cult comes along 1800 years and wants to teach polytheism, but this is overassuming, since the humility of reading the Bible is not to read more than what is there, so since you can't find anything about the Holy Spirit being a created being or Christ Jesus being another created being and the Father yet another created being, know that you create this false teaching because you do the work of the devil. My prayer for you is that you do not need to be a pawn of Satan, but God can deliver you from this demonic influence of moronical mormonism.

Quote:

Originally Posted by evan

you present no other evidence to show that Jesus and GOd are different beings, apart from one verse in Revelation that I have shown to be speaking about Jesus alone.

I have never said God the Father and God the Son are different beings and of course there is no such evidence for this idea of Satan. God the Father and God the Son are One Being in the Trinity. Rev. 22.1,3,4 talk about God the Father and the Lamb, which is Jesus, having one face as one Being. I love these verses in the last chapter of the last book of the Bible that sum up the Word of God and give the last warning which sadly you fail to heed. You won't be with us in the new city where God and the Lamb with be at the center.

The 1000 years is mentioned 6 times in Rev. 20.2-7 and in verse 3 it says the nations will no longer be deceived, that is, no longer war as they do now. Since they still war they are still deceived which means we are not in the 1000 years-the millennial kingdom.

It is sad when someone tries to interpret the Bible with their head without the Holy Spirit in their spirit. The Bible tells us we shall know them by their fruit. I know you by your false fruit by your claiming this time now, which included Hitler, Stalin and Polpot as a millennial peace. The time we are in now is the dispensation of grace of the mystery age of the church and is detailed in Rev. 2 & 3 as well as the 6 seals of Rev. 6, starting with when Jesus died on the cross in Rev. 5 and the 1st seal. Salvation to enter new birth will bring forth fruit, in works as well as correct teaching. Since you have false teaching and false works, I know you are not saved and the Holy Spirit shows the ultimate reason, because you reject the uncreatedness of the Trinity and prefer to worship a created being Satan who convinces you to believe in polytheism and impersonal social god. Only the uncreated God is all-knowing, all-seeing, and omni-present. No created being has this power.

Matt. 24.13 says in context regarding the Jewish remnant, "he that shall endure unto the end" referring to Israel. Who is he? He is of Israel who preaches "this gospel of the kingdom" which "shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (v. 14). It is Israel that is a witness unto all the nations by its troubles it goes through as the world comes against them. Christians do not come against Israel, but love the little brother.

There are both rewards for Christians as well as Jewish remnant to be the center of all nations. Matt. 24.13 is speaking specifically of the Jewish remnant because Matt. 24.4-31 is referring to Israel, just as Matt. 24.32ff is referring to Christians (the body of Christ: the church). The apostles were both Christians as well as a Jewish remnant for they were all Jews. Rewards for believers to endure, to be watchful, prayerful, keep the word of His patience and prayerful are found in Matt. 24.42, Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36 and to keep the conduct of Matt. 5-7. Don't be confused by these two treatments. In total, God treats three main groups: Jews, Gentiles (or nations) and Christians accordingly. The gentiles will be divided between the good nations and bad nations. The latter will take the mark of the beast and be destroyed. Nothing about mormon-morons other than to say there would be those who worship false Christs in polytheism and worshiping created beings like Satan. Other cults do the same and have no faith to believe in the uncreatedness of God. This is a sure sign of being bound for perdition.

Matt. 24.4-31 The reasons were given which you did not respond to how they are words and references to Israel not Christians. Please refer to these explanations again.

Since the explanations I gave for your Infractions you did not respond to specifically as inaccurate, they stand, and since you can not say the same of me other than by self-declarations on your part, your response is considered of no account. This is the reasonable thing to do to deal with your hostility. The violations of yours stand....

Quote:

Signature Rule Violation

Repetitive Mindless Accusations - Violating Board Etiquette #6.

Since Christianity has never found, nor do you provide any evidence for your idea in the Bible, nor do you even try to show it, by self-declarations of God being created, know that you are like Satan with such proclamations and accusations against Christians.

You're a bad person and can't repent because John 3.18 says you are already condemned. How sad for you.

Reason:
-------
Signature Rule Violation

Repeating self-declarations - Violating Board Etiquette #6.

Since you still have no evidence for Christianity being wrong that God is uncreated, and you find no support for your idea in the Bible, know that you are sinning.

Don't be a clanging bell.

The problems in Christendom have been foretold in Rev. 2 & 3. This in no way poses a problem though because it is the Trinity that gives us this information to protect us to help us not slip up, and it is the Trinity that is the only Uncreated Being that has ever existed that has this foreknowledge to warn us about making mistakes in the Church so as not to be deceived by the unsaved tares who operate in the sphere of the kingdom posing as us Christians.

Praise the Lord!
02-11-2007, 12:59 PM
Churchwork

In doing all that I can do relying on the Holy Spirit and the Word of God to help you evan, consider these questions honestly with yourself:

1) Instead of shutting your mind down for Satan, why don't you ask yourself what caused your god and who caused the god who caused that god and the god that caused that god? So on and on.

2) You would come to the conclusion that there is a never ending chain of gods causing gods in your kingdom in the eternity of the past, but how can this be? And can it be disproven? If it can then it is from Satan and the independency of the fallen man especially considering you have no evidence for such an idea in your attempt to claim 1800 years later a diabolically opposite teaching to Christianity, just as Mohammed came up with a diabolically opposite teaching to Christianity over 600 years later. Other cults like JW's and Christian Science came around at the same time as moronical mormonism. These cults of course have no basis and are merely independent methods and means to reject God of the Bible. There were quite a few cults that cropped up in the 19th century. Joseph Smith is certainly where the rich man is in the bad side of hades waiting to be resurrected to GWT and cast into hell. There are over 40,000 adherents in the world. It's fascinating all the different ways man comes up with to reject God, but it will not save him one iota.

3) Christians agree before being saved we were sinners and no man is without sin. All which is born of the flesh is flesh. Even as believers we are often selfish and even sin, but to much less degree onwards towards being perfected for the new city which takes some time to reach, even through the millennial reign when Christ returns. The question becomes if we all sin and none are sinless and if there is an eternity of the past of gods creating gods you suppose, then you would have had an eternity of the past to be perfected by virtue of the approximation towards infinity and the exponential progression of our conscience in just 6000 years in the backdrop of 13.7 billion years it will not take an infinity to reach sinlessness for the new city, yet you still sin; so, it is not possible there be an eternity of the past of your gods creating your gods as taught in moronical mormonism, but it is a fabrication of your cult, so why believe it? Why be so selfish to make us such a lie?

4) Since of course you can't let go of this lie, any Christian would reasonably conclude you have never been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and are bound for hell. Thus would you not agree you will be in hell soon?

Your other false fruit which show you are not in Christ (according to your profile answers as of this date):
- denying Christianity in the belief in the Trinity
- denying the distinction of God's 3 Persons as the Uncreated One Being, the great I AM
- rejecting God's infinite foreknowledge to give eternal life at new birth which can never be lost (note that you believe in a created being which does not have infinite foreknowledge to be able to do this; that is, your god is impotent to be able to give eternal life at new birth which can never be lost. For example, if you think you are saved, you believe it's possible not to be saved tomorrow. Satan keeps this doubt in your mind because you were not truly saved in the first place. The glue that sticks is not a strong bonding like Christians have-once-saved-always-saved. Your god of mormonism is really just a fabricated facsimile and idol which you create for yourself to be disobedient and independent from God because you want to be saved another way and deep down inside, you are too selfish to be saved according to God's design. You reject your uncreated creator.)
- adding books to the complete Word of God's 66 books
- altering Biblical tongues to mean gibberish babble
- rejecting Jesus died on the cross on good Friday and resurrected on Sunday
- rejecting firstfruits to the harvest
- rejecting baptism by fire, ie the use of hell to burn off the dross of false works
- denying Paul went to towns to appoint elders for localities which God needs to be fulfilled before His return
- rejecting the rapture of the Saints as was Jesus raptured
- rejecting the dimensions of the new city in Rev. 21 have purpose (don't believe in universalism of infinite space for all to be saved, for God says hell is vast and the new city is only a certain size)
- rejecting the Bible when it says the old earth will be burnt up and that there be a new city on a NEW EARTH which is also without the sea, that it be a physical earth since in the 17 point proof the new city is a physical city.
02-12-2007, 02:51 AM
evan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Churchwork

evan,

Don't accuse that I don't love you, for I do love you.

No you don't. Your actions are patantly devoid of real love. I understand that you are far from perfect, as am I. However, you do not know even the Biblical meaning of the word 'love'.

Quote:

And I tell you the truth because I don't want you to go to hell. I would not wish this on my worse enemy. Presently you are on the course for hell because you have not accepted the uncreated Jesus as your Savior, but prefer to believe in a created concoction as taught by the cult of mormonism.

That's another case of MINDLESS REPETITION. That is also a 4 point infraction, as you simply repeat over and over that Jesus is 'uncreated' without providing any proof. If you do not address this issue, I will cease communication with you.

Quote:

Due to your selfishness, you have done this to yourself, willingly accepted their lie and the lie of one man Joseph Smith who rejected Christ and Christianity. So you are without the love of the Lord in your life, because you reject Jesus as the 2nd Person in the Trinity as being uncreated. And so, John 13:35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. Because you do not have the love of the Lord, you seek to alter His loving Word by trying to make the Father, the Son and Spirit created separate beings instead of the One and Only Uncreated Triune Being. At least realize you are not Christian as Christianity has long since been conveyed in the 66 books of the Bible.

I am "without the love of the Lord in your life, because you reject Jesus as the 2nd Person in the Trinity as being uncreated."????

Are you for real?????

Have you completely missed the entire point of the Bible?? You have not shown any verse from the Bible where it says that God will condemn me for not believing that Jesus is 'uncreated'.

It does say that God will condemn those who don't believe in Jesus.

Quote:

The book of Revelation was written AD 95/96 which is clearly the last book of the Bible intended since it speaks of eternity future in the new city. Rev. 22.18,19 as part of the summary book of the Bible sums up any alterations one may make in all of the 66 books of the Bible. As Gen. 1 gives us eternity past, Rev. 21 gives us eternity future. Rev. 22 gives us the last warning. Gen. 3 gives us the details of Gen. 2. Rev. 12 to 19 give us the details of Rev. 6 to 11. Rev. 2 & 3 are the church age, concurrent with Rev. 6. Rev. 4 is the picture of the universe from heaven. Rev. 5 is Lamb slain on the cross along with the first seal which shows the arrow has been shot out of the bow giving Satan a deadly wound at the cross. God seals the 66 books by the number 66 too. 6 is the number of Satan, but also the number of man because man loves Satan's ways, and the redemptive design separates these two in the 66 books. Mormons and the Roman Church and the Eastern Church seek to add books to the 66 books of God's Word. God will judge you for this sin according to Rev. 22.18,19. The millennial kingdom (Rev. 20) separates the dispensation of grace from eternity future. The 1000 years is a transition period when Christ reigns on earth before the new city and new earth commences. God works not in jerky motions, but flows from one dispensation to the next.

Quote:

Revelation is the last book written for the 66 books of the Bible-the complete Word of God (John 1.1). Rev. 22.18,19 not only involves this book of Revelation, but may be extended to all the books of the Bible because Revelation sums up all the books of the Bible.

As great as that is, you have no presented any scriptural evidence to say that Revelation is the last book of the Bible. It is widely accepted that John wrote the Book of Revelation about AD 91, on the isle of Patmos. However, after that he returned to Ephesus where he wrote his three other epistles.

This alone shows that the Book of Revelation was never intended to be the final book of the Bible. Despite its contents, it never claims to be the final book, it just seems to be convenient. I have shown that the Book of Revelation is the prophecy John refers to:

Rev 1:1-3 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

Please show other scriptural evidence that the Bible as a whole is considered to be the 'prophecy' that John speaks of in Revelation 22.

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Messiah was to die as a sacrifice for sin

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, vicarious sacrifice (Is. 53.5,6,8,10,11,12; John 1.29, 11.49-52, Acts 10.43, 13.38,39, Rom. 5.6,8).

You are quite right that the Old Testament says that the Messiah will die as a sacrifice. However, I asked you to show where in the Old Testament it says that the sacrifice of Jesus would replace the sacrifices of the Old Testament.

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Have you not the faith to believe the perfect sacrifice to be uncreated?

It is not a question of faith. By the way, I am still waiting for you to offer scripture which says that God is 'uncreated'.

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I am saved by His paying the eternal price for the forgiveness of my sins because He is uncreated and died for me which I have accepted freely and can never be lost, but you don't have this eternal blessing because you worship a facsimile which you make a created being in your selfish image. This is your great sin and why you will be eternally separated from God when you are judged at Great White Throne and cast into the lake of fire. This is not love that you want this.

As much as your sincereity if admirable, you are saved (if at all) because you believe in Jesus Christ and his atonement, and obey the commandments of God. You have not offered any scriptural evidence which states that God will condemn me for not believing that he is 'uncreated'.

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God cannot be different beings because then you have created beings and a God that is impersonal social construct instead a personal singular Triune Being that has always existed.

That does not make sense.

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My God has always existed who created you and me, so He trumps your god always because you admit your god is created.

Here we go with the "My God is better than your God" part.

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Since nothing in nature happens all by itself and nothing in the supernatural happens all by itself, then the ultimate creator cannot himself be created, because if he was, then you would have to ask who created him.

You keep repeating this with no scriptural evidence to support it. Does this count as mindless repetition? Or do you only issue those to people whom you can't beat with your self-righteous ego?

By your own logic, it would seem that if nothing happens all by itself, then God must have been created, or he couldn't exist. The only other alternative is that God simply popped into existance, and is completely devoid of participation in your logic which states that nothing can exists without a cause. If nothing exists without a cause, then God too must follow that same pattern.

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And to keep asking this question of who created who is to say there is an eternity of the past of gods creating gods, but this is not possible because that would mean you had an eternity of the past to be sinless, yet you still sin. The exponential progression in our conscience these past 6000 years shows it will not take much longer to reach sinlessness in the saved, so one knows without a doubt there was not an eternity of the past of causes and effects for you to attain sinlessness, but you were created by the uncreated creator. However, we both know your spirit is dead to God and your conscience can't accept this simple reasoning because you are hellbound and don't want to be saved.

You say that mankind has 'evolved' over 6000 years and will be sinless soon. I say that that is rubbish, as John says:

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Thus we see that there is no mention of mankind becoming sinless. You claim this because of one scripture alone (I can't even find your reference for it) that apparently claims that those who live in the 'new city' are sinless?

Please provide this reference.

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And to keep asking this question of who created who is to say there is an eternity of the past of gods creating gods, but this is not possible because that would mean you had an eternity of the past to be sinless, yet you still sin.

I chose to repeat this part of your post as it highlights some serious error on your part. You say that this is your 'proof' that God is 'uncreated'? By this rationale, you state that:
1) If God is created, then there is an eternity of gods creating gods
2) If #1 is correct, I have had an eternity to become sinless
and
3) This cannot be true as I still sin

Do I really need to point out the confusion here? I will anyway:
1) Why do you assume that I have been alive, on earth, for an eternity?

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The one who is capable of doing good is the man who has accepted the uncreated Savior Jesus Christ. A man who does good by the "good self" whilst still rejecting Jesus as being uncreated and as the personal Savior in the Trinity is a man still hostile and separated from God. You are a person who still is hostile to God. You can't see God, nor will God reveal Himself to you until you accepted Jesus as being uncreated because your personal problem is rejecting the uncreatedness of God.

Please provide evidence that 'acceptence' of Jesus hinges upon believing that he is 'uncreated'.

Again, please provide evidence that God will condemn me for not believing that Jesus is 'uncreated'.

Contrary to your professed belief, I read:

Revelation 22:14 [i]Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.[/i]

There is no mention of an belief that God is 'uncreated'.

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Different people have their different things they use to reject God, but yours is that you reject Him being uncreated; therefore, all you have is hell which is a blessing to Christians to keep you eternally separated from us because you admit to us now you never want to be saved as we are saved. We will no longer shed a tear for you in the new city.

That is not a statement from someone who actually knows God, nor what real love is. Your words betray you.

Please show me how you can think that because I do not believe that God is 'uncreated' it means that I have rejected God.

I keep asking for scriptural evidence of this and you continue to fail to do this. In fact you posted me an infraction based upon:

You are still committing repetitive self-declarations in your selfishness without evidence. Since the Bible only ever has taught an all-knowing, omnipresent and omnipotent God being uncreated which continues in oral and written tradition and the writings of Paul in the history of the church unchallenged, then for you to introduce a new teaching diabolically opposed to Christianity, you would need some evidence, but you supply none, so this infraction is to warn you to stop committing this sin, because this is not a forum for such mindlessness. It is not conducive to discussion, because being a clanging bell while the burden of the proof is on you will not help your case at all. Satan does no less in proclamating things without evidence or support. Because there is not an eternity of the past of cause and effects since you would still not be sinning now if having had an eternity to be perfected, then you know the uncreated created. This is proper cause and effect. A dead conscience can't sense the uncreated.

You accuse me of being a 'clanging bell', and being 'not conducive to discussion'. I have never seen someone more oppressive nor dictatorial in suppressing discussion than you are. You issue infractions to others breaking rules that you do constantly, yet you seem to abide outside these rules.

So, what is my evidence for Jesus being 'uncreated'?

Jesus is spoken of being the 'Son of God'. This implies a relationship that is very much one of relationship. God refers to himself as our 'Father'. Indeed, LDS claim that God is our Father, as Paul says in Acts:

Act 17:28-29 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

And compare with:

Revelation 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

As such, being children of God, we may become like him.

Lorenzo Snow, a President of the Church, once said "As man now is, God once was: as God now is, man may be."

There is, I admit, limited scriptural evidence in the Bible that God is 'created'. I would point out that you have offered NO evidence that God is 'uncreated', and yet continue to issue me infractions for saying that this is so. However, when we examine statements surrounding this, a pattern is found.

Lorenzo's statement is clearly applicable to Christ himself, a God who became mortal for a time and yet was still and is still God. Furthermore, we are told that we can become like Christ and God - we can "put on the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:3-10), and we can become "like him" (1 John 3:2) and we can receive glorious resurrected bodies (Phil. 3:21; 1 Cor. 15:40-45) just as Christ has. Futher to this point, I would add that as Jesus has a physical resurrected body (Luke 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have), and Jesus is the 'express image of his Father' In fact, the scriptures go beyond saying that we can become 'like' them to saying that we are actually "joint-heirs with Christ" (Romans 8:14-18), which implies that we will on some level be equal with Christ, inasmuch as we too are "joint-heirs". What that practically means, I offer no speculation, merely what scripture itself states.

Again, I admit that there are no direct statements that to the effect that God is 'created'. Some have pointed to the verse from Revelation 1:5-6

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

which seems to state that it is Jesus was washed us from our sins in his own blood, and then makes us kings and priests unto God and his Father. I do not claim to know if that is what this verse is indeed saying, but it does seem to say just that.

If that interpretation is correct, then it does indeed say that God (not Jesus) has a Father. Even if you accept that 'God' refers to this 'one being', then that God has a Father too.

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The distinctions of the 3 Persons are distinctions, nothing about separate beings; that is why Christianity has always believed in the distinct Persons of the Godhead and never anything about different beings. Christianity is monotheistic, not polytheistic or tritheistic.

I have provided scriptures which I claim support my beliefs. You have offered nothing in return to support yours (correct me if I am wrong). I say that such scriptures demonstrate separate individuals, you say they mean mere distinctions, however, your have nothing else to support this. I have offered scriptures which clarify the notion of 'one' god, and you offer nothing in return.

LDS theoogy claims that after the death of the apostles, Christianity fell into darkness, characterised by the loss of essential doctrines, such as baptism, church authority etc, and that this continued for many centuries. If this is indeed true, then the doctrine of separate individuals making up the Godhead is among them. I ask you to provide evidence of this doctrine - ie: that God and Jesus and the Holy Ghost are 'one' being.

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Your cult comes along 1800 years and wants to teach polytheism, but this is overassuming, since the humility of reading the Bible is not to read more than what is there, so since you can't find anything about the Holy Spirit being a created being or Christ Jesus being another created being and the Father yet another created being, know that you create this false teaching because you do the work of the devil. My prayer for you is that you do not need to be a pawn of Satan, but God can deliver you from this demonic influence of moronical mormonism.

INFRACTION - INSULTING OTHERS - 2 points.

You have referred to me personally as a 'moron', and to my beliefs are 'moronical'. Since you are prepared to use the same term, I find that your use of the term 'moronical mormonism' is not directed solely at my faith (which may not be strictly 'insulting' of a person proper) and thus is also a personal insult directed at me, the implication of your many posts being that only a mormon would believe in the LDS faith.

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I have never said God the Father and God the Son are different beings and of course there is no such evidence for this idea of Satan.

Apologies - mistype.

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God the Father and God the Son are One Being in the Trinity. Rev. 22.1,3,4 talk about God the Father and the Lamb, which is Jesus, having one face as one Being. I love these verses in the last chapter of the last book of the Bible that sum up the Word of God and give the last warning which sadly you fail to heed. You won't be with us in the new city where God and the Lamb with be at the center.

Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

This implies that the Lamb (Christ) and the Father have different names. Here is an example that paralells the verses of chapter 22:1-4. It is the Father's name which is written in their foreheads. When we read:

Revelation 22:1-4 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it; and his servants shall serve him:
And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

Thus this verse is capable of being interpreted as referring to either Christ or the Father. I find this verse to be highly symbolic in nature, as is most of the Book of Revelation. It was a vision, and made much use of symbolism and imagery (the tree of life etc). As such, I find that it is a highly questionable verse to rest your entire doctrine upon, which you do. You also have provided no other scripture to support this claim.

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It is sad when someone tries to interpret the Bible with their head without the Holy Spirit in their spirit. The Bible tells us we shall know them by their fruit. I know you by your false fruit by your claiming this time now, which included Hitler, Stalin and Polpot as a millennial peace.

Please tell me when I have claimed that we are now in millennial peace. I have never stated such, nor is it a teaching of my church. As such, your claim to know me by this 'fruit' is completely wrong and without basis. Thus you do not know me at all.

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Since you have false teaching and false works, I know you are not saved and the Holy Spirit shows the ultimate reason, because you reject the uncreatedness of the Trinity and prefer to worship a created being Satan who convinces you to believe in polytheism and impersonal social god. Only the uncreated God is all-knowing, all-seeing, and omni-present. No created being has this power.

Again you are saying that salvation is determined upon believing that God is 'uncreated'. You have yet to support this belief from scripture. YOu also ignore the teachings of Christ when state that obedience to his commandments is what salvation is based upon (Matthew 19:17, 10:22, 24:13, Mark 16:16, Luke 7:50 (maybe), Jophn 14:15 and Acts 2:21)

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Matt. 24.13 says in context regarding the Jewish remnant, "he that shall endure unto the end" referring to Israel. Who is he? He is of Israel who preaches "this gospel of the kingdom" which "shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (v. 14). It is Israel that is a witness unto all the nations by its troubles it goes through as the world comes against them. Christians do not come against Israel, but love the little brother.

But this clearly is not so: Jesus is speaking to his disciples and likewise to those of the church:

Matthew 24:4-5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many

Obviously this may refer to the Jews who were still waiting for the Messiah, but the fact remains that it was said to the disciples, who were to administer the kingdom of God. Since a Christian is someone who follows Christ, and we know that anti-Christs are to rise even now, this cannot be construed as being a direction to the Jewish people. Rather, it is a warning to the disciples of the challenges that they will face. The rest of the Jesus' words follow in this pattern. He tells them that many calamities will come upon them. He says:

Matthew 24:9 [i]Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.[i/]

This statement is also delivered to his disciples. I fail to see how you can think that this is about Israel, other than speaking of the geographical area, nor do you provide any kind of explaination. Unless you are prepared to offer actual examination of the text, you cannot just keep mindlessly repeating the same mantras over and over.

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There are both rewards for Christians as well as Jewish remnant to be the center of all nations. Matt. 24.13 is speaking specifically of the Jewish remnant because Matt. 24.4-31 is referring to Israel, just as Matt. 24.32ff is referring to Christians (the body of Christ: the church). The apostles were both Christians as well as a Jewish remnant for they were all Jews.

You keep saying that, but you haven't actually examined the text. You appear to just have copied it from someone else. Please actually engage the text to support your claims. Please show how it refers to Israel and the Jewish people in order to support your (now changed) claim that 'enduring to the end' is for the Jews not the Christians.

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Nothing about mormon-morons other than to say...

I find you to be a rude and offensive person. A person who was truly trying to follow God would not act this way. They would act the way Jesus commanded, not trying to prove their Christian 'credentials' by repeating a unsupported claim of condemnation for allt hose who do not believe that God is 'uncreated'.

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Matt. 24.4-31 The reasons were given which you did not respond to how they are words and references to Israel not Christians. Please refer to these explanations again.

I read part of that, but it is incorrect. Matthew 24:9-13 is directed to the Christian disciples. It is spoken to them alone, not to the Jewish nation. Please engage the text yourself, and not rely upon someone else's interpretation.

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Since the explanations I gave for your Infractions you did not respond to specifically as inaccurate, they stand, and since you can not say the same of me other than by self-declarations on your part, your response is considered of no account. This is the reasonable thing to do to deal with your hostility. The violations of yours stand....

That is exactly what is to be expected from someone who is more concerned with their own self-righteous pride than actual humility.
02-12-2007, 03:23 AM
evan

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Originally Posted by Churchwork

In doing all that I can do relying on the Holy Spirit and the Word of God to help you evan, consider these questions honestly with yourself:

Okay.

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1) Instead of shutting your mind down for Satan, why don't you ask yourself what caused your god and who caused the god who caused that god and the god that caused that god? So on and on.

I have. The Lord has not seen fit to provide an answer to that. However, it does not concern me. There are many things that the Lord has not revealed, and I trust that he will in his own due time.

Likewise, have you asked where God came from? Is it enough for you to just say "He was uncreated" without understanding what that means?

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2) You would come to the conclusion that there is a never ending chain of gods causing gods in your kingdom in the eternity of the past, but how can this be? And can it be disproven?

Perhaps, but you have not offered anything to disprove it at all.

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]3) Christians agree before being saved we were sinners and no man is without sin. All which is born of the flesh is flesh. Even as believers we are often selfish and even sin, but to much less degree onwards towards being perfected for the new city which takes some time to reach, even through the millennial reign when Christ returns. The question becomes if we all sin and none are sinless and if there is an eternity of the past of gods creating gods you suppose, then you would have had an eternity of the past to be perfected by virtue of the approximation towards infinity and the exponential progression of our conscience in just 6000 years in the backdrop of 13.7 billion years it will not take an infinity to reach sinlessness for the new city, yet you still sin; so, it is not possible there be an eternity of the past of your gods creating your gods as taught in moronical mormonism, but it is a fabrication of your cult, so why believe it? Why be so selfish to make us such a lie?

INFRACTION - INSULTING OTHERS - 2 points.

Your logic makes no sense. You assume that gods creating gods means that I have had an eternity to become sinless? This implies that you think that I have been around for the same eternity as the gods.

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4) Since of course you can't let go of this lie, any Christian would reasonably conclude you have never been regenerated by the Holy Spirit and are bound for hell. Thus would you not agree you will be in hell soon?

[sarcasm]Oh my gosh! You are so absolutely right![/sarcasm]

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Your other false fruit which show you are not in Christ (according to your profile answers as of this date):

Considering that you got my other 'fruit' wrong, I do not trust your judgement.

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- denying Christianity in the belief in the Trinity
- denying the distinction of God's 3 Persons as the Uncreated One Being, the great I AM

No comment.

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- rejecting God's infinite foreknowledge to give eternal life at new birth which can never be lost (note that you believe in a created being which does not have infinite foreknowledge to be able to do this; that is, your god is impotent to be able to give eternal life at new birth which can never be lost. For example, if you think you are saved, you believe it's possible not to be saved tomorrow. Satan keeps this doubt in your mind because you were not truly saved in the first place. The glue that sticks is not a strong bonding like Christians have-once-saved-always-saved. Your god of mormonism is really just a fabricated facsimile and idol which you create for yourself to be disobedient and independent from God because you want to be saved another way and deep down inside, you are too selfish to be saved according to God's design. You reject your uncreated creator.)

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that once you are saved you are always saved. Please provide scriptural evidence of this. On the other hand, we have much that shows that we can 'lose' salvation. You also say that because 'your god' is uncreated, it has power whereas 'my god' does not, as it is created. This is without any support from scripture.

1Co 10:8-12 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Hebrews 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Thus we see that it is very possible to 'lose' your salvation, and that the Bible does not state anywhere that people are 'once saved, always saved'.

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- adding books to the complete Word of God's 66 books

Dealt with before

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- altering Biblical tongues to mean gibberish babble

You obviously know nothing about LDS faith (as you have shown already), nor do you know nothing about me. I do not believe that biblical tongues are 'gibberish babble'. I responded "No" to that question because of some other part of it. The part I did not agree with is:

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Do you accept that tongues are known by the speaker though may be unknown to the hearer if the latter does not know that particular language?

This to me negates the whole point of tongues. If you will supply scriptural evidence to the contrary, I will re-evaluate my answer.

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- rejecting Jesus died on the cross on good Friday and resurrected on Sunday

I do not reject this. What I disagree with is your claim of the exact time of his death and date:

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Do you believe when Jesus died on the cross at 3 p.m. on Friday, April 1st (Nissan 14), 33 AD,

I do not believe that you know that exact information.

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- rejecting firstfruits to the harvest

I do not know what this relates to. I cannot find it in the questions.

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- rejecting baptism by fire, ie the use of hell to burn off the dross of false works

I do not find the term 'baptism of fire' in the New Testament at all.

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- denying Paul went to towns to appoint elders for localities which God needs to be fulfilled before His return

I agree that Paul appointed elders etc, but please show scriptural evidence that support your claim as you have written above.

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- rejecting the rapture of the Saints as was Jesus raptured

I do not reject the 'rapture' as Jesus was 'raptured'. I have offered my explainations for my beliefs which you have pointedly ignored. You have not answered my explainations at all.

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- rejecting the dimensions of the new city in Rev. 21 have purpose (don't believe in universalism of infinite space for all to be saved, for God says hell is vast and the new city is only a certain size)

I agree that the new city in Revelation 21 has its size described. I disagree with this:

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Do you believe God discloses the size of the New City to indicate how few are actually saved which should motivate a person to receive the cross as a helpless sinner?

This will never motivate someone to come to Christ. What will motivate them is God's love. This statement shows that you indeed have a 'head salvation', not a 'heart salvation'. Your beliefs are all based on what you think, and how you see things, not on your actions which are the true indicator of living, vital faith.

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Do you agree 1.2 billion souls (resurrected-saved) would be a reasonable estimated upper limit according to the space provided of 1379 x 1379 miles with walls 216 feet high? (Rev. 21.16,17)

How can anyone agree with that??? Talk about off-the-planet speculation!

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- rejecting the Bible when it says the old earth will be burnt up and that there be a new city on a NEW EARTH which is also without the sea, that it be a physical earth since in the 17 point proof the new city is a physical city.

This is not what I object to and you know it. I object to your UN-BIBLICAL claim that MARS! will be the home of the new city.

I find your use of these questions to 'prove' that I am hell-bound to be highly suspect. You have not included the full statements as made in the questions, nor have you addressed my concerns with them which I have previously posted. Also, you include statements that are not supported by scripture as being indicators of faith.
02-12-2007, 02:03 PM
Churchwork

evan,

The reason the Lord has not shown you who caused your god is because you reject the Lord, will not receive revelation from Him and instead prefer to believe in the assumed position of an eternity of the past of gods creating gods. The fact remains since nothing in the natural or supernatural happens all by itself, therefore know that God did it because God is uncreated. To be uncreated is just that, which means God has existed for an eternity of the past in His Triune Being of Father, Son and Spirit, and He has no cause for He is uncaused. Understand why it is wrong to say God is a social collective of beings creating each other in the eternity of the past since God is uncreated and personal, not this impersonal collection of created beings. Christians will always refuse your heresy on that point.

The proof always stands that since you still sin, know that there was not an eternity of the past of gods creating gods, for you would have had an eternity to be perfected without sin. In just 6000 years in the backdrop of 13.7 billion years we see it won't take long at all to reach sinlessness in the saved, let alone the need for an infinite amount of time. The eternity of the past of gods creating gods of mormonism is an assumed position brought in by Satan to reject God of the Bible and to try to alter the Word of God in your heart.

You don't understand calculus. In calculus anything approximating infinity is deemed as infinite. If there is an infinity of the past of gods creating gods as taught in mormonism then anything derived from them would also be within the realm of approximating infinity so that you would have had an eternity of the past to be without sin, yet you still sin. This shows it is not possible, and that mormonism is a lie. Based on this sound reasoning to continue to refer to mormonism as moronical due to your assumed position is most applicable; it is not an insult but your true condition. Know what you are so you can change. If you don't know what you are then you will never consider repenting.

The reason you are so sarcastic is because mormonism continues to jade you and lock you into being a moron as given by your blind faith in gods creating gods in the infinity of the past without reason. Anytime you make a self-declaration, I can't respond to it, because there is nothing to respond to. It is merely just your selfish center proclamating itself without basis or support, and all you have is the continued shutting your mind down. e.g. "no comment".

There are many verses that show once-saved-always-saved, so this should not be in dispute. Know that your god is a liar since he is impotent to give you eternal life at new birth which is eternal.

1 Cor. 10.8-12 does not say they had eternal life already, but "these events happened as a warning to us, so that we would not crave evil things as they did or worship idols as some of them did" (vv. 6-7). Anyone in Israel still needs to believe personally to be saved to receive eternal life at new birth. What God refers to saying Israel is the chosen nation is that He first revealed Himself to the nation of Israel not that everyone in Israel is saved arbirtrarily. You don't know the Word.

Heb. 6.4-6 is not referring to loss of eternal life but loss of rewards. This study shows this. Rejected (v.8)—This is the same word as the “rejected” found in 1 Corinthians 9.27. There Paul describes how he buffets his body and brings it into bondage lest by any means after he has preached to others he himself should be rejected. Naturally every Christian knows that Paul is not in danger of becoming unsaved, but that he is afraid lest he miss the crown and the kingdom. What is meant by being rejected of God? For example, you have a bicycle which was originally in good shape and fit to be used, but now it is broken and rusted and cannot be used. By saying this it does not mean that this bicycle has disappeared; it is only being rejected, put aside because useless. To be rejected by God does not mean that a person has lost eternal life or is unsaved; it only means he is set aside by God and has thus become useless. To those believers who continue in sins, God has His discipline of putting them outside of glory—in outer darkness-without any part in the kingdom. This is what Matthew 25.30 means.

"Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever." 1 Peter 1:23

Know why you can't believe this, because your spirit is dead to God and you are going to hell.

Know that you have not dealt with your sin of adding to the 66 books of God's Word.

The part of the question on tongues that you said you rejected was, "Do you accept that tongues are known by the speaker though may be unknown to the hearer if the latter does not know that particular language?"

This shows you do believe in gibberish babble, contrary to your claim, since if the speaker does not know what he is saying, then obviously it is gibberish babble. Therefore, you accept gibberish babble teachings. And so you answered the question correctly according to your beliefs and false teachings, but your answer is wrong since there is no indication of gibberish babble in the Bible. None whatsoever! I can provide no support for your gibberish babble in the Bible, nor have you been able to do so, so know that what you believe is a lie as popularized by Pentecostalism today and the Montanism cult of the 2nd century.

You said you rejected "when Jesus died on the cross at 3 p.m. on Friday, April 1st (Nissan 14), 33 AD". Understand this is more the nature of moronical mormonism to reject things without reason. Note that you have no reason for rejecting this time disclosed in the Bible. The Bible says 3 p.m. Friday and we know according to the calendar the only possibility is 33 AD, Nissan 14, April 1st. That is to say there is no other possibility that fits in the 3rd decade of the first century given the days and dates that can be considered. This is how I know this which becomes the proof. Realize your assumed position is to say I don't have such proof even though I do.

In the question you reject regarding advanced parties and harbingers in every sphere, name something that does not have this characteristic. So will it be at the consummation of this age, where there is a firstfruits (Rev. 14.1-5) and a later harvest (14.14-16).

In the Bible there is baptism by water, Spirit and fire. You don't know this in the Bible because you don't know the Bible. Read Matt. 3.11, "baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire".

In the millennial kingdom Christ will return with His overcomer believers. The overcomer believers will reign on earth for the 1000 years (not all believers). What do they reign over? The nations and the cities. Consequently, there needs be not a jerky transition into this reigning with Christ with an iron rod, but there most be a transition that flows reasonably from one dispensation to the next. When the church is organized into one cohesive arrangement of apostles working regionally to appoint elders of localities to a certain requirement God needs to be in place (the specific degree of this manifestation is not given exactly), then He will return. Obviously He has not returned yet because this arrangement has not yet taken place in an obviously displayed fashion. However, the aim of Biblocality is to bring this to the attention of the body of Christ to appreciate to make it happen by the grace of God and by the leading of the Holy Spirit.

In your rejecting of the rapture of the saints (as was Jesus raptured), you show no reason for rejecting the rapture, but blindly reject it, to which I need not respond since the burden of the proof falls on you for your hostility against the rapture of the saints in the church. Please respond to my response to your opinion and I would be happy to reply.

True salvation is based on receiving Jesus as Lord and Savior to truly receive His uncreated and eternal life at new birth and have the love of the Lord and do His will. You don't have this because based on your actions and thoughts you show that you live in your head, and not by the spirit, because you worship a created god admittedly. Instead of receiving the atonement of the uncreated Christ, you worship an idol which you create for yourself that you call a created being in your selfish image. It is a false Christ we are warned against. The Bible disclosed the size of the new city not without reason, and you have no reason for why the new city is a certain size. Christians have the reason and revelation by the Holy Spirit why the new city is the size disclosed in Rev. 21 because it is showing it is not nearly as vast as hell is. The number of saved is far less than the number of unsaved, far less than most suspect. This is very motivating to people to understand to realize that they ought to be sure they have truly been saved and not enter into a false salvation which they claim can be lost tomorrow. Oh how deceitful the heart is!

There is no speculation in God giving the size of the new city which is about the size of India or half the size of USA and we know that population levels are overcrowded as it is so that to be conservative 1.2 billion is an upper boundary for the size of the new city. It could in fact be far less.

Mars is the only possibility for the new city since there is no other possibility even remotely considered by those hostile to God's Word. Since the old earth will be burnt up and we know this scientifically too (within 5 billion years), and the new city is a physical new city, then it must be on a physical plane. The only near possibility is future Mars which is reasonably habitable and can be terraformed during the 1000 years.

In the questions given the only ones being focused on in our discussion are the questions which you flat out reject which you do without reason or support. This shows your hostility to God's Word. My job as a Christian is to point out this bad behavior of yours and false fruit does not give glory to God. It is humble to say you are not sure, but you don't say that, for in these questions you say you reject them without valid reason, and it is my duty to show you that not only have you no basis for doing so, but there is reason given in the Scriptures for why these questions are asked. They provide a protective barrier for Christians to show a person is not a Christian, because that person rejects these questions for no good reason at all, starting with the most important questions first.
02-12-2007, 04:41 PM
Churchwork

evan,

Regarding love, the difference between you and I can be proven. While you accuse of being without love, I can prove you are without the love of the Lord. Your being without God's love is shown in your rejecting God by worshiping admittedly a created idol which you make for yourself you call a created being (a false Christ) and reject the uncreated Savior that Christians have fellowship with. That's why you prefer to believe in a lie that comes 1800 years after Jesus died on the cross to make a diabolically opposite teaching to God's Word and Christianity.

Since the burden of the proof is on you to justify this aberrant teaching of moronical mormonism that pops up 1800 years later to alter God's Word, you would need something more than your selfish proclamations. The proof remains that since nothing can happen all by itself, not in the natural or the supernatural realm, therefore, the uncreated had to have created. A quickened spirit by the Holy Spirit accepts this truth and so shall we know them by their fruit of not rejecting this fact. You are not saved because you worship the created, a creation of an idol you make for yourself-a false Christ.

My prayer for you is to not cease communication because that is just putting your head in the sand, but remain on point that nothing in nature happens without a cause to know that the uncreated had to have created since you still sin. You would not still be sinning if there was an eternity of the past of gods creating gods which in that system you would have existed approximating for an eternity of the past. Let go of your polytheism as taught by eastern cults and impersonal social created group of beings you call God, but receive God of the Bible who is One Being Uncreated and Triune and personal in His 3 Persons.

The Bible says those who reject Jesus will not be saved. The only way to the Father is through the Son. You do not accept Jesus because you have made Him a created being in your own selfish desires and are unwilling to come to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Since Jesus is uncreated existing before the foundations of the world and the universe in the eternity of the past with the Father and the Spirit in the Trinity and you reject this truth, know that you worship a false Christ and reject the church age, not just for 1800 years but the last 200 years too. This is why you are going to hell. Don't blame me, for this is your choice. I only tell you the truth to help convince you to receive the uncreated Christ.

Scholars agree Revelation was written AD 95/96, not AD 91. And, the range of when the 1,2,3 John were written could have been before or after 95/96. It poses no problem whether they were written before or after. Nothing needs be so strict.

Revelation 21 clearly shows us the picture of eternity future. Revelation 20 - the millennial kingdom - has not started yet since obviously the nations are still deceived, which they won't be in the millennium (v.3). Nothing surpasses eternity future, so Rev. 21 is truly the farthest thing in the future and would not require more information about until Christ steps down on the mount of olives to disclose more information. The 6th seal (Rev. 6) has not been completed yet, first rapture has not yet taken place (7.9). The trumpets of the Tribulation (Rev. 8ff) have not been blown. This is truly the last book of the Bible as it sums up most precisely what must happen at the end of this dispensation of grace, the Tribulation, parousia of Christ, the millennial reign and judgment for the unsaved after the 1000 years. Only then will the new city and the new earth commence. As a book of summary it can not be any more perfect!

Please read these verses pertaining to the vicarious sacrifice (Is. 53.5,6,8,10,11,12; John 1.29, 11.49-52, Acts 10.43, 13.38,39, Rom. 5.6,8) and replacement of temporary sacrifices. Read these verses and ask yourself why the sacrifices have stopped.

The way God discloses His being uncreated is for you to interpolate the fact that He says there is no gods before Him, therefore the Father, Son and Spirit are uncreated. By rejecting this fact, you reject the ten commandments and God of the Bible. Why continue to shut your mind down to this information? It's because you have not been regenerated by the Holy Spirit.

What you worship is an eternity of the past of gods creating gods which is what atheists teach also because they reject the uncreated creator. Again, this is shown not possible because you still sin, but you would not still be sinning if you were derived from an eternity of the past of gods creating gods. In such a scenario, you would stem from the eternity of the past and not need an eternity to be without sin. Therefore, you had to have been created by the uncreated creator Who is Christ Jesus. You reject Him because you demand He is created when no Christian believes this, nor is it in the Bible, but as I have shown you, the Bible says, place no gods before God in the ten commandments in Ex. 20.3.

Yes this makes perfect sense! "God cannot be different beings because then you have created beings and a God that is impersonal social construct instead a personal singular Triune Being that has always existed." God could not be these different beings created and impersonal in a social construct. Nor would it make sense that there could be different beings because you would have to ask where they came from and could not happen all by themselves. Whereas Christianity teaches that nothing comes before God. God is uncreated. There are no gods before God.

My God is better than your god because your god admittedly needed to be created by my God is uncreated. You lose, so you go to hell; I win, because God chose me before the foundations of the world; that is, He foreknew my free-choice that I would receive Him.

It is a mindless repetition to keep shutting your mind down to the fact that nothing in nature happens all by itself. Why not respond to this fact and deal with it instead claiming there is no Scriptural support for it. Where in the Bible does something happen all by itself? Where in science is such an idea every even considered? Understand your ego can not let you let go of the idol of an eternity of the past of gods creating gods. This is what keeps you separated from God. This is a Satanic teaching of atheists. You believe exactly what they believe, for this is how they reject God of the Bible too. You can't see it can you?

It is not possible that God popped into existence because nothing happens all by itself, but anything that is created has a cause, but that which is uncreated needs no cause. Therefore, the only possibility is God had to have been uncreated. This is the God of the Bible. And it is not possible God never existed because obviously we are here are we not? We could not be here if God never decided to create. It is illogical to say because nothing can exist without a cause therefore God must be caused, because the Bible says in Ex. 20.3 that there are no gods before God, so there is only one possibility. God is uncreated. Nothing causes God. Let go of your atheist idol of an eternity of the past of gods creating gods. If you are saved you believe in the uncreated God of the Bible. If you don't, you are not saved. Simple. Your conscience is dead and insensitive to God and so you can't accept this truth. The other proof God uses of His existence is to say you still sin. This is a Biblical truth. Since you still sin, there could not have been an eternity of the past of gods creating gods of mormonism because you would be within that scheme of gods creating gods approximating the eternity of the past to have had enough time to be without sin considering in merely 6000 years the exponential progression of our conscience will not take much longer to reach sinlessness in the saved. This revelation is derived from the Scriptures since the Bible says there is no gods before God and yes, you still sin, which would not be possible if you were derived from the eternity of the past. The Bible shows us the exponential progression in our conscience these past 6000 years. For example, it is no longer common practice among the nations to sacrifice their children. God used Israel to annihilate those nations that did that in Canaan.

Your god is Satan so Satan teaches you might as well go with him to hell because mankind will never cease to be sinful. But God and the Lamb will be at the center of the new city and the saints will be pillars of that new city and be without sin. Your teaching of mormonism agrees with Satan.

I did not say mankind "evolved" over 6000 years, so why quote me falsely? What I have said is that there is an exponential progression in man's conscience these past 6000 years such that there will be sinlessness observed in the saved very soon.

1 John 1.8 does not say there will be sin in eternity future. Why misuse this verse? While you hold the view there will be murder and hate and jealousy in the new city, this is not the view of Christians.

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Rev. 21.8).

Obviously, these have no part in the new city because there is no sin in the new city.

By saying in your scheme that you exist in the approximity to eternity of the past because of your belief in an eternity of the past of gods creating gods is not to say that you have existed on earth for an eternity, for the earth is only a few billion years old. Rather, what is said is that if you are derived from the eternity of the past of gods creating gods then your existence would approximate from the eternity of the past having given you an eternity to be perfected without sin, but it would not take nearly so long since we see the exponential progression in the conscience of mankind in just 6000 years in the backdrop of 13.7 billion years. Know that mormonism is just another way of rejecting God as there are many ways.

I am going to have to give you another infraction for constantly asking for the proof of God being uncreated and that the Savior is uncreated to whom must be received to be saved. Having given you the proof over and over, the same way every time virtually and you refuse to respond to this evidence of the Scriptures and the verses given, what else can I more reasonably do?

Those who do His commandments (Rev. 22.14) are those who are saved. There is nothing in the Bible about a god creating God, so Rev. 20.3 says place no gods before God. Moronical mormonism comes along 1800 years later and wants to give God a creator. Satan is working hard. Silly and sad! Also, don't quote one verse that doesn't mention the uncreatedness of God to be the reason why you reject God being uncreated. Even if one singular verse does not say God is uncreated or created should be no reason for you to come to the conclusion God is uncreated. After all Christians have never believed such a thing nor have we ever had reason to believe this. Certainly just because Joseph Smith comes along and demands it is not worthy of consideration. He is going to hell because he places a god before God.

The Bible says we will no longer shed a tear for the unsaved such as you and Jesus spoke on hell more than anyone else, so when a Christian does the same, you blame us and call it without love. Know that these are real consequences and we share them with you because we don't want you to go to hell, even though you are clinging to hell tooth and nail.

You may call God your Father, but He is not your Father, because you place a god before God of the Bible. This is why you are going to hell. No other reason. Your sin of separation from God is shown with these words: "Lorenzo Snow, a President of the Church [mormon cult], once said As man now is, God once was: as God now is, man may be." But the Bible says place no gods before God. You place man as an idol because you say God was a man. The Bible never says that man will become God. Only God is uncreated. Man will never be uncreated; that is why God and the Lamb are at the center of the new city, while the resurrected-saved are the pillars of the new city.

To be "like God" (1 John 3.2) is not to say you will be uncreated, for obviously you exist and did not create yourself. God however, always was and was never created. To have His uncreated life means to have eternal life and His divine nature, but still it does not mean you always existed.

There are not limited verses which indicated that God is created; rather, there is NO verse indicating God is created. There are only verses that say God is uncreated for there are no gods before God (Ex. 20.3).

To be kings and priests means to reign and to be holy. In the millennial reign of Christ (Rev. 20) the overcomer believers who return with Christ will both reign and be holy. It does not say anything about God being created, but speaks of rewards for overcomer believers.

You are not a Christian because you say "that God (not Jesus) has a Father". Know unequivocally no Christian would ever say this. So there are only two possibilities. Every Christian that has ever lived is unsaved and only mormons are saved. Or almost all mormons are unsaved and all Christians are saved.

The Scriptures we have discussed certainly show a distinction of God's 3 Persons, but there is nothing warranted to indicated overstepping that by saying different beings of polytheism. There is not an eternity of the past of gods creating gods. Let go of this idol of mormonism.

Baptism and church authority was not lost after the apostles. The next generation of apostles had authority, continued to appoint elders of a locality and baptized by the Holy Spirit. Do you see how mindless your selfish self-declarations are? Hence, accurately we may call mormons morons. Christians would feel embarrassed to make the claims you make, because it is so far askew from reality, but your conscience does not convict you because it is dead to God. Since you are wrong on this and your conclusion that you are right about this is that God is different individuals, then according to your mindless reasoning, then God is not different individuals but one being. Crazy stuff!

Could there be others that have the belief in polytheism besides mormons? Yes. Many eastern cults believe in polytheism, so it is not solely mormons. Even eastern cults don't call God of the Bible gods like you do, but they admit their faith is not the same of God of the Bible. This shows that mormonism is even more evil and especially moronical. This characteristic is of mormons not just you. You are just one moron in mormonism of many morons. May you appreciate this so you can come to Christ. How truly sad it would be if existence hinged on being a mormon moron worshiping created beings instead of the uncreated creator that has no gods before Him.

Rev. 22.4, "...his servants shall serve him: And they shall see his face." Preceding this was God and the Lamb, but then this verse treats them as One being with One face. Rev. 14.1 shows the distinction of the Father and the Son in which the Son and the Father are both in third heaven since this sion is the one in heaven, not on earth. Many reasons can be given why this is so. These firstfruits first raptured are those closest to Christ for keeping their virginity. There will be no procreation in the new city, though there still will be outside the new city on the new earth. Rev. 14 is within 12 to 19 giving the details of 6 to 11.

The book of Revelation is proven to be not symbolic at all, for a symbol is unexplained, but of the 30 symbols, half of them are explained right in the text itself. The other half are very simple to interpret from the rest of Scripture. That leaves less than one symbol per chapter in the book of Revelation. Hence, the book of Revelation is very literal (read section 6).

Usually what happens is a person who is confused by information will relegate it as too symbolic as an excuse to not accept it. In reality though, the book of Revelation is one of the easiest books of the Bible to understand and Rev. 1.3 states a very specific blessing which no other book of the Bible opens with if these words are kept and preserved in your heart. That you consider the book of Revelation so symbolic shows me you don't know it. The tree of life is a real tree that produces real fruit to the nations that live outside the new city. Though there is no sin the body can still be weak so it needs renewal from the tree of life which bears fruit monthly. Those separated from God allegorize inordinately that which is plainly literal.

Your cult of mormonism and you teach the 1000 years (Rev. 20.2-7) is happening now, but this millennial peace is not happening now for verse 3 says the nations will not be deceived. Obviously, they are still deceived for they still war. Your sin is to make this time now of Pol pot, Hitler and Stalin a millennial peace. Your conscience is dead to God.

The obedience to Christ is receiving Him as He truly is and since you demand He be created, this shows you have not received Him, for nowhere does the Word say He is created, but that He is God and existed in the eternity of the past with God the Father and the Spirit in the Trinity; therefore, He is uncreated and there are no gods before God. You can't be obedient to God only the devil of your cult of mormonism.

Matt. 24.4 The disciples have just asked about the destruction of the temple. This is a matter which deeply arrests their attention. In answering them, the Lord first warns them to be careful lest they be misled. For anyone studying prophecy, the preeminent safeguard which Jesus pronounces here is to “take heed that no man lead you astray”; yet how sad that many believers fall into errors because they do not pay attention to prophecy: “We have the word of prophecy . . . as unto a lamp shining in a dark place” (2 Peter 1.19). Not to be led astray exhibits that kind of spiritual discernment which will not take yea for nay, or nay for yea.

Remember, the apostles were both the Jewish remnant of the day and Christians. I have already said this several times which you continue to overlook.

vv.5-6 By whom will they be in danger of being led astray? (1) By false Christs. In his Wars of the Jews, the renowned Jewish historian Josephus recorded how false Christs and false prophets deceived the Jews by promising them miraculous deliverance. These false Christs were able to deceive the Jews because they had refused to believe in the real Christ. (2) By wars and rumors of wars. After the death of Christ, rumors of wars did spread abroad like wildfire.

“See that ye be not troubled: . . . the end is not yet”—The disciples asked when the temple would be destroyed, and the Lord answers with two signs: false Christs and wars. But do not mistake these phenomena as signifying the end. When these two signs are fulfilled, it only means that the holy temple shall thence be destroyed. And hence, do not be troubled by such signs, since all these phenomena must indeed come to pass—but the end is still not yet.

This is pertaining to Israel for it is what must happen to Israel, and Israel was destroyed AD 70. Recall all the reasons how vv.4-31 give so many Jewish references whereas v.32ff does not for it is moral in nature. The apostles are Christians so naturally they are warned against false Christs, but so too are the Jews warned, since the disciples are Jews too, not to receive another Christ than their Messiah who is Christ.

Matt. 24.9 agrees that is towards the Jews.

v.9 Here begins the real tribulation. Verses 9-13 form a small section which deals with persecution.

“You” here refers to the Jewish disciples. Jewish believers in Europe and other continents: they keep the commandments and the Sabbath, and also believe in the Lord Jesus as their Messiah. The “you” here are also the prophets mentioned in Matthew 23.34. These prophets and wise men will be persecuted, even killed (see James 5.6). Both Mark and Luke record this in greater detail. These Jews will be delivered up to synagogues and councils, but the Holy Spirit will guide them as to what to say and will speak through them. Mark 13, Luke 21 and Matthew 24 all speak of Jewish believers who are similar to the disciples sent “to the house of Israel” (see Matthew 10.6). But Luke 22.35-38 refers to the sending of the disciples to the Gentiles, for the dispensation of salvation had by that time already begun, and therefore those who were to go out now needed to take purse and wallet. Hence there is similarity between the prophecy here on the Mount of Olives and what is recorded in Matthew 10.5-6.

Then, too, let us compare: (1) Matthew 23.34 with Matthew 10.17-18; (2) Luke 21.14-15 with Matthew 10.19-20; (3) Matthew 24.9-10 and Luke 21.16-17 with Matthew 10.21-22; and (4) Matthew 24.13 with Matthew 10.22. The above all speak of the Jewish believers. The words “synagogues” and “councils” and so forth show a Jewish colour. Since “all the nations” denote the unbelieving Gentile world, the “you” must refer to Jewish believers. According to Isaiah 49.9-10 the Jews will in the future be very zealous for the Lord in preaching the gospel. At the opening of the fifth seal in Revelation when the souls who were slain ask for vengeance, they are comforted by the Lord in His bidding them to rest for a little time until the number of all who are slain be fulfilled. These brethren mentioned in Revelation 6.11 who will be slain include Jewish believers spoken of here in Matthew 24.9.

So we see much to do with the Jewish believers in Matt. 24.4-31, not referring to the Gentile believers. There shall be these Jewish believers in the time of Jacob's trouble pronouncing the gospel of God's salvation. They proclaim God's judgment. They know it is Jacob's trouble. For more examples of the Jewish color, read as follows. There is more than ample evidence this is so. How you treat the little brother will bear upon you.

Your biggest problem is every time something is shown to you and its evidence, you mindlessly shut your mind down to it and do not deal with this information. This is a case of my casting pearls before the swine since you are locked into a cult come hell or high water. That is your choice.

The burden of the proof remains you. Shall I keep repeating the same proof that you refuse to respond to? No. The burden of the proof is on you. The link is given only now for there is no need for me to keep posting the proof that you belligerently shut your mind down to. I do consider this a rude way to be and it is offensive to any opportunity for discussion.

All Christians have the same credentials-we accept there are no gods before God, so God is uncreated. You don't believe this because you are not a Christian and don't want to be. I accept this fact about you. The typical characteristic of a mormon is to profess by self-declaration God is created without reason or support and there it stands so that God will cast you into hell. This is not love that you would choose this course. It is the course of willingly and unabashedly being a moron mormon. Just know you don't have to remain this way. Arrogant pride is the culprit, which is self-righteous and without the humility of Christ. Sincerely ask yourself right now, of the 40,000+ adherents in the world, how mormonism can be true, for it is really no different than the polytheism of so many other cults and atheists? There is a peace in knowing God is uncreated and there are no gods before God.

Matt. 24.9-13 speaks of the Jewish believers and what will happen to Israel: "hated of all nations for my name's sake" (v.9).

Which nation? Of all the nations it will be Israel. These are not mutually exclusive events. This event includes those who have not necessarily professed Christ but God deems to be believers, for remember God is saving a remnant of Israel to be the center of all nations. At this point believers have not even been called Christians yet; not till Antioch where they were first called.

My advice to you is not to rely on Joseph Smith and all those who live that same lie, but let the Word of God teach you. Smith self-declared rather than rely on the evidence of the Scriptures, and he imparted communication from evil spirits since he worshiped an uncreated idol. You know what just popped into my mind? Did you see the movie the Matrix? Joseph Smith reminded me of Agent Smith. He too lived by what he was compelled to do by self-declaring himself and wanting to place gods before God.

The reason you have no need to prove your self-proclamations is because in your spirit is the nature of the evil spirit to self-declare things without ample evidence by overassuming, the very method used to reject God and worship as do atheists an eternity of the past of gods creating gods. The Holy Spirit has never entered your spirit to give you God's life. Which god of these gods do you worship really in the eternity of the gods of the past? Pick any old one you want according to your selfish desires and interests. Ultimately it would be Satan.
02-12-2007, 04:56 PM
Churchwork

Summary

evan, you believe God is gods and they were created and have no faith to believe eternal life is eternal at new birth. Because you think God is gods, your god is impersonal different beings. You believe in polytheism. You believe the millennial peace is now with Hitler. You also agree with many atheists who believe in an eternity of the past of gods creating gods or causes creating causes with no beginning of the uncreated God who existed in the eternity of the past. Satan is your guide masked in moronical mormonism. You have called Christianity a lie for 1800+ years. You do Satan's bidding, surely you do! You believe sin will never go away as does Satan. Surely this may be the case where you are going which is hell. Because mormons don't have eternal life, they admit they can lose this false salvation they have. That is actually a good thing. Good thing the salvation of mormonism is not eternal, for then there would be no way you could truly be saved.

Contrast that with Christians who have received the uncreated Jesus as Savior, believe God is uncreated and the Trinity is 3 Persons, One Being and has no gods before God. We believe the 1000 years is yet to come and is a reward to overcomer believers such as Paul. Not all believers receive this reward. Christians believe there is no sin in the new city or new earth with God and the Lamb at the center. Christians can never lose eternal life because it is eternal. We have a personal relationship with the personal Triune Being. The corporate Christ is the body of Christ which is to say we are the members of the body of Christ and Christ is our head. We do not become God or gods. We have God's life and God's nature, but we are not God or gods. This takes humility to accept.

Conclusion: at least 99% of mormons are unsaved for they ought to know better, because they are made in the image of God also with a spirit of God-consciousness, and so by accepting mormonism they reject Christ.

I think it is really important to concentrate on this information:
Before the Lord are two classes of people: (1) the rejected Jews, and (2) a nation that can bear fruits (21.43). In this connection, therefore, the disciples may represent (a) the Jewish remnant, and (b) the called out ones. Accordingly, we have a combination of the Jews and the church. It is highly important for us to find out which section relates to the Jews and which relates to the church. In our view (and in the view of others too, such as D. M. Panton who felt that 24.31 is a distinctive line of demarcation), 24.1-31 pertains to the Jews, while 24.32-25.46 pertains to the church. This division is based on internal as well as external evidences, as follows.
A. 24.1-31 concerns the Jews, since everything here is literally interpreted; but 24.32-25.46 concerns the church since everything there is spiritually interpreted. For example, “winter” in verse 20 is literal since it is in actual fact a difficult thing to flee in the winter (“sabbath” too is literal); “summer” in verse 32, however, is to be spiritually interpreted since it points to the soon coming of the kingdom (while the “fig tree” refers to the nation of Israel). Or as another example, in verse 26 “the inner chambers” must be interpreted literally, whereas in verse 43 “the house” is to be interpreted spiritually. Hence what concerns the Jews is to be literally interpreted; but what concerns the church is to be spiritually interpreted (see Matt. 13.11-13).
B. The part before 24.31 is full of Jewish background, as is made clear by the usage of such terms as “the holy place” (v.15), “in Judea” (v.16), and “sabbath” (v.20); but the part after 24.31 is plainly without any localized restriction in its terminology.
C. The things mentioned before 24.31 are physical in nature, whereas all those things mentioned afterwards are moral in character. For instance, the nations, the mothers with children, and the children mentioned in the first part are all physical or literal in meaning; yet the virgins, the servants and the householder, and the goats and the sheep cited in chapter 25 have moral implications about them. In addition, “go . . . forth” in 24.26 and “went forth” in 25.1 are different in character, with the former being literal and the latter being moral in their implications.
D. Before 24.31 there is no moral demand included; what is required is to flee. But after 24.31 there are moral demands presented, such as watch, be ready, and so forth—which actions are the responsibilities of the saints at the end time.
E. Since the Jews are still expecting the Messiah, there are false Christs being mentioned before 24.31; but there is no word about false Christs after 24.31, because the latter part is addressed to the church.
To sum up, then, Matthew 24.4-31 speaks to the Jews; Matthew 24.32-25.30 speaks to the church; and Matthew 25.31-46 speaks to the church about the Gentiles.
The way the Holy Spirit has revealed God's treatment of the Jews and Christians is that there will be a Jewish remnant that will be transferred livingly into the kingdom. This is God's promise to the nation of Israel to be the center of all nations, not Utah, USA. At the end of this age (ion, not world) there will be those Jews who proclaim the gospel of the kingdom, their Messiah in the Messianic Kingdom. However, when they do enter the kingdom they need to believe individually in the Christ, if they have not yet done so. I have purposely made this grey because it is complicated between whom God saves in the nation of Israel, because on the one hand God has to save a remnant, but on the other hand Israel has not accepted Christ. Let us be in awe of how complicated God is about these things. There is the remnant disclosed in Rev. 7.1-8, telling us there will be at least 144,000 Israelis who are protected in the wilderness during Jacob's trouble. As Israel is made the center of all nations, not everyone in Israel is necessarily saved. There is the salvation of the Jews entering into the kingdom, but anyone who is not yet saved in the kingdom must believe individually in the Son of Man who will be reigning from the center of all nations in the millennium. There is a very delicate demarcation line between the Jew who is not in the body of Christ but is saved because he is professing the Messiah and the Jew who is in the body of Christ and professing the Messiah. I believe that many Jews will be saved even though they have not yet professed Christ to at least be transferred livingly into the millennial kingdom and may have been saved either before or after the millennium. In the same fashion, some person on a remote island somewhere may have never heard of Jesus or read the Word, but he could still be saved because he looks at the mountains and the stars to know God always was and He created, that there was no gods before Him, and he truly believes so that if the Bible were given to him, he would truly believe it.
02-12-2007, 05:55 PM
Churchwork

evan,

Due to your infractions recently putting you into moderation, I realized that you are the type of person who will not stop self-declaring your mantra mindlessly, shutting your mind down to the evidence of the Christian uncreated God and God's commandment to put no gods before God. Because you are such a hard case and controlled by the god of mormonism, the Holy Spirit deemed it best to place you into permanent ban status and not temporary ban which you would have come out of from as infractions wear off. If you are willing to change and have a discussion with evidence, I would be happy to talk to you, but not until then, for nobody wants to listen to a clanging bell. Your pride is great and without a doubt, you are definitely bound for hell. If you do ever choose to contact me again, you would need evidence for why you think God is created and not rely on mindless self-declarations. However, I know no such evidence exists so you would just be spinning your wheels. May I hear of your salvation one day to receive the uncreated Jesus as Lord and Savior. The characteristic of a Christian is we do not assume more than what the Bible says. The 3 Persons of the Trinity are distinct, not separate. God is One Being (Father, Son, Spirit), not impersonal beings. He always existed and is the Only uncaused.

A useful source of help for you are sites that cater to ex-mormons who have become Christians. My heart goes out to you for I can sense the strife in your soul you must be going through, the reason why you contacted me. I have given you the best evidence that I have ever seen for why God of the Bible supersedes your god. Still you must choose.