Calvinists are Evil

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11-05-2009, 06:25 PM
Churchwork

Calvinists are Evil

Re: briancook007 http://www.youtube.com/user/briancook007

Quote:

Originally Posted by briancook007

What did Charles Spurgeon say about people like you? "I believe the man who is not willing to submit to the electing love and sovereign grace of God, has great reason to question whether he is a Christian at all, for the spirit that kicks against that is the spirit of the devil, and the spirit of the unhumbled, unrenewed heart."--"The Blood of the Everlasting Covenant"

"The fact that God asked man to reason with him shows that he is not going to arbitrarily deliver man and give to him blessings without man's consent. If the destiny of man is fixed, without regard to whether he accepts or rejects the provision made for him, then there would be no occasion for him to reason with the Lord. This for ever puts to silence the theory of predestination of every creature."--J.F. Rutherford, higher-up of the "Jehovah's Witnesses" cult, "Deliverance", p. 102

Spurgeon was right.

Yes, Matthew 7:1-2 forbids us to judge other men's hearts.

The reason why you're withdrawing your posts is because you can't win the debate.

It's sad Spurgeon was not willing to give his life to Christ because he erected an idol of Total depravity that prevented him from repenting and believing in Jesus Christ to be regenerated, for to assume regeneration without prior repentance and faith is not submitting yourself to God; it is without true repentance and faith. Lots of people say to Jesus, Lord, Lord, but Jesus says He never knew you.

The Bible uses the term predestination, so JW's are wrong just as Calvinists are wrong. Predestination is not by irresistible coercion, for what love is this? Rather, God predestinates by foreknowing your free-choice: a conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, for preservation of the saints, just like Jacob Arminius taught and most Christians.

Spurgeon was wrong. God provides sufficient grace to all, to give everyone the opportunity to be saved. Thank God, God is not an evil tyrant like the god of Calvinism.

Matthew 7.1-2 is not saying to never judge, for obviously, we have to judge. We throw people in jail, a judge has to judge his court cases, we must discern and thus judge the evil nature of Calvinism to stand on God's side. What Matthew 7.1-2 is saying is that if you do judge, be sure you are right, because that judgment you judge by will come upon you if you hold the same false teaching. Often people swallow a camel and spit out a gnat or don't look at the beam in their own eye while trying pull out the speck in another's eye.

Praise the Lord I can judge you but not be judged because I don't hold your heresy. A person has this idea not to judge because they have low morals and they don't want anyone to come against their pathetic morality.

You can yet give your life to Christ one day and this is my prayer for you.

The reason why I remove my posts on Youtube forums is because I get too many private messages every day. Too bad there wasn't an option that allowed a person to post there but with an option not to receive a response messages that inundate our message box. On Youtube I will try more to just limit myself to video responses and private messages instead.
11-08-2009, 10:11 PM
Churchwork

Quote:

Originally Posted by briancook007

You are the one who does not believe in God's sovereignty, or in man's total depravity. From the moment of his own conception, man is guilty before God (Psa. 51:5), "dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph. 2:1). He is dead, separated from God; when he is in this state, God does not hear him spiritually (Isa. 59:2, Jn. 9:31a). The only way God can hear him is to regenerate him, making him alive in Christ; only then does spiritual communication occur (Jn. 5:24, Jn. 10:27). Please notice what Acts 16:14 says: "whose heart the Lord opened, THAT SHE ATTENDED unto the things that were spoken of Paul" (KJV). Please notice the NIV translation: "The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul's message." Please notice also the NASB translation: "the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things that were spoken by Paul."

Man is not Totally depraved for then God would show partiality, but God shows no partiality: "For the Lord your God is the God of gods and Lord of lords, the great, mighty, and awesome God, showing no partiality..." (Deut. 10.17). Why should God's standards be less than ours?

Being guilty before God, dead in trespasses and Go does not know him who is unsaved does not indicate Total inability or necessity, but certainly partial depravity, propensity to sin and willfulness. Why assume into the text more than that? For God pleads with all sinners because we have a choice before us. What would be the point of pleading with a sinner if the sinner couldn't respond anyway? This glaring contradiction in your faith shows you are not born-again, that you worship a false God. To be born-again, you will have to repent of Calvinism since you are a Calvinist. Come to the cross as a helpless sinner and receive the Lord Jesus as your Savior to be regenerated.

John 5.24 says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." Where does this verse say you have to be regenerated before you can believe? It says "he that heareth and believe" has eternal life. God is pleading with you to repent and believe on Him then He will regenerate you (give you everlasting life and be once-saved-always-saved for God keeps those who give themselves to Him authentically when we, of course, can't keep ourselves in His stead).

You've misread John 10.27 as well, "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me." This is a looking back upon those who are already born-again; nothing about having to be irresistibly regenerated forcing a person to repent and believe. Come on, that is horrific misreading of Scripture on your part.

Acts 16.14 is not saying anything about irresistibly forcing open the heart or denying sufficient grace, but rather, God is providing sufficient grace to that person to respond to the Gospel of Salvation. Nobody could come to Christ if God didn't provide that grace of opening hearts, but never do we find God not allowing someone's heart to be opened. Lydia from Thyatira was already saved: "She was a worshiper of God, who heard us..." (v.14), so God gave her understanding and opened her heart that much more. She had already given her life to God, so naturally, she was receptive to God opening her heart.

Quote:

None of this precludes man's responsibility, he must repent (Acts 17:30) and must believe (Acts 16:31); however, he never will do those things unless God allows them to him (Acts 11:18, Acts 13:48, Eph. 2:8-9, Phil. 1:29). No one who ever comes to Christ ever is rejected, but no one ever will come to Him unless God grants that to them (Jn. 6:37, 65). This gives God all the glory, for even saving faith and repentance are His gifts to man, not man's gifts to Him.

There is nothing in these verses which you specifically showed say God doesn't allow some people to receive Him, to receive His gifts of repentance and faith. Therefore, you have a contradiction in your heart that goes like this. You say a person can repent and believe, but then you say your god doesn't allow some to repent and believe. Which is it? Can all repent and believe or not? In one breath you say they can, then in another you say they can't. The Bible says be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8) for this is a sin to be a doubletalker. Realize how evil Gould would be if from birth a person was not allowed to obtain the gift of repentance and faith. Christians don't consider the repentance and faith you ascribe to to be true repentance and faith because it was not genuine; it was forced on you by your selfishness of pridefully just assuming you were irresistibly selected like Hitler's Aryan race.

Quote:

This isn't "robot making"; it's the reality that man can do nothing to save himself (Jn. 3:27), that his only hope is in the sovereign God of Heaven and Earth, Who saves whom he will (Jn. 5:21, Rom. 9:16, 18).

Look at your doublestandard. You saved yourself by assuming you were regenerated without any prior repentance and faith, since you assumed you could not do these things unless your god imposed them on by irresistible regeneration. So you are trying to save yourself. Whereas the Christian God contrasts faith with works. Are faith and works contrasted as opposites? "By grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5).

How vain God would be to offer salvation but then nobody could receive it, because they would have to be made to irresistibly accept it. Does God offer us salvation when He says "come unto me" (Matt. 11.28) because we have free-will: "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22.17)? Your Calvinism god is evil, for he gives those who are not irresistibly regenerated false hope by delivering the gospel to them. That is very abusive and sadistic. And it is wrong to force a gift on anyone. It is not a gift then!

Since God provides sufficient grace to all and would want none to perish, He saves whom He wills righteously not unrighteously which is anyone who comes to Him with an honest heart, whosoever is willing. If you come to God with an honest heart He will give you the grace to repent of Calvinism.

Praise the Lord!
11-09-2009, 11:12 AM
briancook007

post 1

Lydia was not saved before she heard Paul's message in Acts 16:14. Yes, it says she "worshipped God", but the Greek word translated "worshipped" there is "sebo", the same word that is rendered "worship" in Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7. Acts 16:14 says God opened her heart to respond effectually to Paul's message; she was baptized immediately thereafter (vs. 15), which shows that her response was salvation.

God never asks anyone to repent or to believe; He commands those things (Acts 17:30, Mat. 11:28, Mk. 1:15, Rev. 22:17c & d). Mat. 11:28, Mk. 1:15, and Rev. 22:17c & d are in the imperative mood in the Greek, which means those statements are commands, not invitations. Rev. 22:17 says that he who is "athirst" should come; totally depraved, unregenerate man never is thirsty for salvation; he is satisfied with his own sin, drinking it like water, his thirst being satiated already (Job 15:16). Do you need proof of total depravity? What saith the Scriptures (NKJV)?

Job 15:16: "How much less man, [who is] abominable and filthy, Who drinks iniquity like water!"

Psa. 51:5: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me."

Psa. 58:3: "The WICKED are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies."

Eph. 2:1-3: "And you He made alive, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the SONS OF DISOBEDIENCE, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were BY NATURE children of wrath, just as the others."

Jer. 17:9: "The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], And desperately wicked; Who can know it?"

Jn. 3:27: "A man can receive NOTHING unless it has been GIVEN to him from heaven."

Jn. 6:65: "No one can come to Me unless it has been GRANTED to him by My Father."

Acts 11:18: "Then God has also GRANTED...REPENTANCE to life."

Acts 13:48: "And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Jn. 6:28-29: "Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The WORK of God is this: TO BELIEVE in the one he has sent."'

Phil. 1:6: "He who has begun a good WORK in you will complete [it] until the day of Jesus Christ."

Eph. 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through FAITH-and THIS NOT FROM YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God-not by WORKS, so that no one can boast."

Phil. 1:29: "For to you it has been GRANTED...TO BELIEVE in Him...."

What do Jn. 5:24 and Jn. 6:40 say? "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who HEARS My word AND BELIEVES in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who SEES the Son AND BELIEVES in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." Spiritually, man sees and hears BEFORE he believes, he having been regenerated, having been made alive in Christ; he is no longer dead, separated from God (Isa. 59:2, Jn. 9:31a), and therefore God can hear him, spiritual communication can happen (Jn. 10:27-28). The Pharisees could not hear Christ spiritually, because they were unregenerate (Jn. 8:43, 47). Regeneration takes place according to God's own sovereign will (Jn. 3:8, Jas. 1:18), not according to man's will (Jn. 1:13).

You quoted Deut. 10:17 to show that God is impartial. That's the point; He is impartial, His election is unconditional, not based on anything seen in man, but only on His own sovereign will (Rom. 9:16, 18). If his election were based on any good ever having been seen in man, no one ever would be saved; man is totally without merit apart from God's grace (Job 15:16, Jn. 15:5c).

You continue to judge other men's hearts. Regarding this, what saith the Scriptures (NKJV)?

Mat. 7:1-2: "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you."

James 4:12: "There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?"

You have accused me falsely of unbelief and of heresy, which I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).
11-09-2009, 11:14 AM
briancook007

post 2

<please no double-posting>

"Answer me, ye that deny God's sovereignty, and hate his election—how is it that angels are condemned to everlasting fire, while to you, the children of Adam, the gospel of Christ is freely preached? The only answer that can possibly be given is this: God wills to do it. He has a right to do as he pleases with his own mercy. Angels deserve no mercy: we deserve none.....Our Arminian antagonists always leave the fallen angels out of the question: for it is not convenient to them to recollect this ancient instance of Election. They call it unjust, that God should choose one man and not another. By what reasoning can this be unjust when they will admit that it was righteous enough in God to choose one race—the race of men, and leave another race—the race of angels, to be sunk into misery on account of sin. "--Charles Spurgeon, "Election and Holiness"
11-09-2009, 08:30 PM
Churchwork

Quote:

Originally Posted by briancook007

Lydia was not saved before she heard Paul's message in Acts 16:14. Yes, it says she "worshipped God", but the Greek word translated "worshipped" there is "sebo", the same word that is rendered "worship" in Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7. Acts 16:14 says God opened her heart to respond effectually to Paul's message; she was baptized immediately thereafter (vs. 15), which shows that her response was salvation.

If someone believes in God they are saved. God is not going to send that person to Hell. She was receptive to Paul because she was already a believer. She did not "sebo" some false god, but she revered the Creator. Hence, she confessed her life to Christ and was baptized by Paul who was an authority in the work for the Church. Baptism follows new birth, which shows she was a believer already whether she entered new birth at that point or not. What this shows is that there are believers in the Old Testament period who are saved who would accept the Messiah when personally revealed. They don't go to Hell because Jesus hadn't yet died on the cross. Who can say some person on some remote island is not saved who truly believes in God? Please don't use this passage to think God irresistibly imposed salvation on her. God is not a tyrant. He forces Himself on no one. She was already a believer you admit for she worshiped God. This is in contrast to the girl "fortune-telling" immediately following who was not a believer (Acts 16.14).

Quote:

God never asks anyone to repent or to believe; He commands those things (Acts 17:30, Mat. 11:28, Mk. 1:15, Rev. 22:17c & d). Mat. 11:28, Mk. 1:15, and Rev. 22:17c & d are in the imperative mood in the Greek, which means those statements are commands, not invitations. Rev. 22:17 says that he who is "athirst" should come; totally depraved, unregenerate man never is thirsty for salvation; he is satisfied with his own sin, drinking it like water, his thirst being satiated already (Job 15:16). Do you need proof of total depravity? What saith the Scriptures (NKJV)?

God is pleading with you which requires your response: "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest" (Matt. 11.28). "In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent" (Acts 17.30). Since God commands you to repent an all people everywhere to repent, then people must have been given sufficient grace to be able to obtain the gift of repentance and is not denied to anyone whosoever is willing. Again, "The time has come, he said. The kingdom of God is near. Repent and believe the good news!" (Mark 1.15). "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22.17). This is a free gift offered to everyone, not just some. How strange it would be if you could only come by being forced to come.

Quote:

Job 15:16: "How much less man, [who is] abominable and filthy, Who drinks iniquity like water!"

Psa. 51:5: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me."

Psa. 58:3: "The WICKED are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies."

Eph. 2:1-3: "And you He made alive, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the SONS OF DISOBEDIENCE, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were BY NATURE children of wrath, just as the others."

Jer. 17:9: "The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], And desperately wicked; Who can know it?"

Jn. 3:27: "A man can receive NOTHING unless it has been GIVEN to him from heaven."

Jn. 6:65: "No one can come to Me unless it has been GRANTED to him by My Father."

Acts 11:18: "Then God has also GRANTED...REPENTANCE to life."

Acts 13:48: "And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Jn. 6:28-29: "Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The WORK of God is this: TO BELIEVE in the one he has sent."'

Phil. 1:6: "He who has begun a good WORK in you will complete [it] until the day of Jesus Christ."

Eph. 2:8-9: "For it is by grace you have been saved, through FAITH-and THIS NOT FROM YOURSELVES, it is the gift of God-not by WORKS, so that no one can boast."

Phil. 1:29: "For to you it has been GRANTED...TO BELIEVE in Him...."

God is the provider of grace. He is the source. None of these verses say God irresistibly imposes regeneration on anyone. Why read into the text that which is not there?

Quote:

What do Jn. 5:24 and Jn. 6:40 say? "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who HEARS My word AND BELIEVES in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who SEES the Son AND BELIEVES in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day." Spiritually, man sees and hears BEFORE he believes, he having been regenerated, having been made alive in Christ; he is no longer dead, separated from God (Isa. 59:2, Jn. 9:31a), and therefore God can hear him, spiritual communication can happen (Jn. 10:27-28). The Pharisees could not hear Christ spiritually, because they were unregenerate (Jn. 8:43, 47). Regeneration takes place according to God's own sovereign will (Jn. 3:8, Jas. 1:18), not according to man's will (Jn. 1:13).

You're assuming Jesus will never present Himself to many people who already believe in God, and thus, according to you they will never be saved. Yet they truly believe in God. Are all ancient Israelites unsaved because they did not live at the time of Jesus or after? Of course not. So don't legalize or twist the passage by pulling out a word and treating it as an idol. Those who see Jesus and believe on Him shall be saved. There is nothing about needing to be irresistibly regenerated before one can believe. Nothing whatsoever. Regeneration does take place according to God's own sovereign will when man is willing to repent and believe on Him which is a free gift offered to all.

Quote:

You quoted Deut. 10:17 to show that God is impartial. That's the point; He is impartial, His election is unconditional, not based on anything seen in man, but only on His own sovereign will (Rom. 9:16, 18). If his election were based on any good ever having been seen in man, no one ever would be saved; man is totally without merit apart from God's grace (Job 15:16, Jn. 15:5c).

His election is conditional which is impartial. If election has to be irresistibly imposed on someone, unconditional and denied opportunity, then this is partial. God is not going to save you by you just assuming you were regenerated for that is by your own sovereign will and not God's. God wants true repentance unto salvation. No matter how good you are in thinking and assuming you were irresistibly regenerated without prior repentance and faith, God won't save you in your good self. Man can't save himself, but God has made in him in His image to have the choice afforded to him. You're meritoriously trying to save yourself by your soulish power of assuming, and since you assume it was not your choice, you don't really know if you are saved, that's why you work for it. Salvation is not by works, lest any man should past.

Quote:

You continue to judge other men's hearts. Regarding this, what saith the Scriptures (NKJV)?

Mat. 7:1-2: "Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you."

James 4:12: "There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?"

You have accused me falsely of unbelief and of heresy, which I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).

The Bible does not say to NOT judge, only that when you do judge if you commit the same sin or selfishness that same judgment will come upon you. Obviously we have to judge in many aspects of life, e.g. we throw people in jails for their crimes. We must judge the work ethic of another person in the employment space. You are trying to abuse Scripture so you are not judged for your misapplying Scripture and your unwillingness to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. You don't like being judged for your selfish salvation, but you are judged by the Holy Spirit. You reveal it yourself you are unsaved when you say you are unwilling to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated, whatever excuse you may use.

I rebuke you in your blessing, for I refuse the blessing of someone who is Hellbound, who refuses to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Since Romans 12.14 is applied to Christians, you have no authority to use this verse in His name.
11-09-2009, 08:45 PM
Churchwork

Quote:

Originally Posted by briancook007

"Answer me, ye that deny God's sovereignty, and hate his election—how is it that angels are condemned to everlasting fire, while to you, the children of Adam, the gospel of Christ is freely preached? The only answer that can possibly be given is this: God wills to do it. He has a right to do as he pleases with his own mercy. Angels deserve no mercy: we deserve none.....Our Arminian antagonists always leave the fallen angels out of the question: for it is not convenient to them to recollect this ancient instance of Election. They call it unjust, that God should choose one man and not another. By what reasoning can this be unjust when they will admit that it was righteous enough in God to choose one race—the race of men, and leave another race—the race of angels, to be sunk into misery on account of sin. "--Charles Spurgeon, "Election and Holiness"

You should let go of your doublespeak. Previously you had said, "You continue to judge other men's hearts" and here you say "Answer me, yet that deny God's sovereignty and hate his election." Why is it ok for you to judge but others are not allowed to judge you? Sounds selfish and self-centered. I don't deny God's sovereignty and hate His conditional election; I deny and refuse the robot maker sovereignty of your god, Spurgeon's god with his unconditional election and irresistibly, tyrannical Satanic grace.

Why does God will to do what He does? Because it is righteous and holy and true. The angels know nothing of the blood of atonement, because they are spirits and do not exist in the flesh. Man knowing that He could not erect obedience on the angels, He created man who He could through Christ and the work of the cross by the Holy Spirit. The fleshly receive saving grace. Whereas angels know that their choice to rebel is a once-for-all affair because they are spirit beings. That is the nature of being spirit being, whereas man is a soulical being with a spirit and a body. You can't say a person who is born into sin deserves no mercy for he was born that way; it is not his fault he was born that way. A person doesn't deserve mercy if having received the knowledge of the gospel still refuses to accept it. God has not left the angels to be sunk, for 2/3 of the angels did not rebel.

Charles Spurgeon admits he is going to Hell, for he admits that his god irresistibly imposes salvation and like Hitler damns the Jews from birth to Hell without any recourse whatsoever. God is not an evil tyrant. Why should God's standards be less than ours? What love is this?

While it is too late for Spurgeon, it is not too late for you to give your life to Christ.
11-10-2009, 09:57 AM
briancook007

post 5

You obviously didn't read the Scripture references I gave regarding Acts 16:14. As I said, the Greek word translated "worshipped" in that verse is "sebo", the same word as is found in both Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7, which say, "IN VAIN they worship Me...." Just because Lydia had worshiped God previously, it doesn't mean she was saved; that didn't happen until God regenerated her in Acts 16:14. As far as a remote island inhabitant goes, Rom. 1:18-20 answers that. You also said that Old Testament people didn't go to Hell; have you never read Lk. 16:19-31? You said God moves irresistibly on no one in salvation; have you never read Acts 9:3-6?

I never denied that the entire human race is commanded to repent (Acts 17:27, 30), but that doesn't mean God grants that to every member of the entire human race. What saith the Scriptures (NKJV)?

Jn. 3:27: "A man can receive NOTHING unless it has been GIVEN to him from heaven."

Jn. 6:65: "NO ONE can come to Me unless it has been GRANTED to him by My Father."

Acts 13:48: "And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Phil. 1:29: "For to you it has been GRANTED...TO BELIEVE in Him...."

Acts 11:18: "God has also GRANTED...REPENTANCE to life."

II Tim. 2:25: "In humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will GRANT them REPENTANCE, so that they may know the truth."

Rom 9:16-24: "So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. "You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed [it], "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? [What] if God, wanting to show [His] wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, [even] us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

God's grace isn't irresistible in regeneration? What saith the Scriptures (NKJV)?

I Sam. 10:9: "So it was, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, that God gave him another heart...."

Jn. 3:8: "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Rom. 9:16, 18: "So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens."

Tit. 3:5: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit."

Jn. 1:12-13: "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God."

James 1:18: "OF HIS OWN WILL He brought us forth by the word of truth."

You miss the point. Man is dead, separated, in his natural state (Isa. 59:2, Eph. 2:1), and the only way spiritual communication can take place (Jn. 9:31a) is for God to regenerate him. Regeneration is dependent on God's own sovereign will (Jn. 3:8, Jas. 1:18), not on man's will (Jn. 1:13). Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, tells us in Word Pictures that "which were born" is in the passive voice, meaning that the subject is being acted upon and has nothing to do with the action other than being on the receiving end of it.

Many Jews were not saved in Old Testament times, as Paul tells us in Rom. 9:6-26; he says there that individual salvation is dependent on the sovereign will of God (Rom. 9:16, 18).

God's election is unconditional, it is not based on anything seen in man (Rom. 9:16). You've really got your nerve accusing me of having a works-based belief system, a "selfish salvation"; if there's any such system here, it is yours, that of Arminianism. Saving faith is a work (Jn. 6:28-29); not in the sense of man's performing it to merit salvation, but in the sense of it being an action on his part. The Word of God says saving faith is God's gift to man, not man's gift to God (Eph. 2:8-9, Phil. 1:29). You hold the position that man provides that apart from God's grace in salvation; if anybody here is promoting a works-based system, it is you. I never assumed anything about regeneration before I believed and repented, I just did those things; but I know that I did those things only because God allowed them to me. Faith and repentance are the fruits of regeneration, not the causes of it.

You said, "You don't really know if you are saved, that's why you work for it.....You reveal it yourself you are unsaved...." You referred to me as "someone who is Hellbound". You continue to judge my heart, a clear violation of the Scriptures (Mat. 7:1-2, Jas. 4:12).

You hear me now, sir. I'm not afraid of you or the Devil that's motivating you, and don't you ever forget it. I have every authority, whether you recognize it or not, to use Rom. 12:14 in the Name of Christ by His grace, as I am His child, despite your false accusations to the contrary. You may rebuke me all you please, but that doesn't change things, nor does it intimidate me.

You have attacked me unjustly. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ to defend me in this, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). You have accused me falsely of unbelief and of heresy, which I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).
11-10-2009, 11:18 PM
Churchwork

Quote:

Originally Posted by briancook007

You obviously didn't read the Scripture references I gave regarding Acts 16:14. As I said, the Greek word translated "worshipped" in that verse is "sebo", the same word as is found in both Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7, which say, "IN VAIN they worship Me...." Just because Lydia had worshiped God previously, it doesn't mean she was saved; that didn't happen until God regenerated her in Acts 16:14. As far as a remote island inhabitant goes, Rom. 1:18-20 answers that. You also said that Old Testament people didn't go to Hell; have you never read Lk. 16:19-31? You said God moves irresistibly on no one in salvation; have you never read Acts 9:3-6?

People can sebo not in vain. The problem with your theory is that all those prior to Christ would have gone to Hell. Where did I say people in the OT would not go to Hell? What I said was that some can be saved from the OT period because they believed in God, so surely they would accept the Messiah just as those today who believe in God so when they are presented the Christ they surely would accept Him. There is no reason to think Paul's experience irresistibly forced him to believe. He could easily still have kicked at the goads and rejected Christ. Many of the 500 who had seen Jesus alive from the dead could still have rejected Him. The disciples who were unwilling to eat of his flesh and drink of his blood walked away. So your arguments utterly fall on your head. God is not an evil tyrant.

Quote:

I never denied that the entire human race is commanded to repent (Acts 17:27, 30), but that doesn't mean God grants that to every member of the entire human race. What saith the Scriptures (NKJV)?
Jn. 3:27: "A man can receive NOTHING unless it has been GIVEN to him from heaven."

Jn. 6:65: "NO ONE can come to Me unless it has been GRANTED to him by My Father."

Acts 13:48: "And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Phil. 1:29: "For to you it has been GRANTED...TO BELIEVE in Him...."

Acts 11:18: "God has also GRANTED...REPENTANCE to life."

II Tim. 2:25: "In humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will GRANT them REPENTANCE, so that they may know the truth."

Yes God is the provider, but none of these verses say God doesn't provide sufficient grace to all, for we read in Scripture, God wants none to perish; therefore, He provides sufficient grace to all and pleads with all.

You're repeating the same verses but you don't show how they agree with you as you insert your theory into them.

Quote:

Rom 9:16-24: "So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. "You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed [it], "Why have you made me like this?" Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? [What] if God, wanting to show [His] wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, and that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory, [even] us whom He called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

The Pharaoh hardened his own heart first.

Quote:

God's grace isn't irresistible in regeneration? What saith the Scriptures (NKJV)?

I Sam. 10:9: "So it was, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, that God gave him another heart...."

Jn. 3:8: "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Rom. 9:16, 18: "So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens."

Tit. 3:5: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit."

Jn. 1:12-13: "But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name: who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God."

James 1:18: "OF HIS OWN WILL He brought us forth by the word of truth."

Where do any of these verses say God irresistibly imposes salvation? Stop inserting. That's your flesh.

Quote:

You miss the point. Man is dead, separated, in his natural state (Isa. 59:2, Eph. 2:1), and the only way spiritual communication can take place (Jn. 9:31a) is for God to regenerate him. Regeneration is dependent on God's own sovereign will (Jn. 3:8, Jas. 1:18), not on man's will (Jn. 1:13). Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, tells us in Word Pictures that "which were born" is in the passive voice, meaning that the subject is being acted upon and has nothing to do with the action other than being on the receiving end of it.

You miss the point. Man being dead doesn't mean Total inability, but lost communication. It indicates propensity to sin, not Total depravity. Certainly man is depraved but not Totally depraved, for man at the very least can help an old lady across the street and so can respond to God's call. John 9.31 is presenting a choice: believe and hear or remain as you are a sinner. A sinner can't be saved unless he gives his life to Christ. It doesn't say anything about having to be regenerated first before one can believe. Regeneration is certainly God's doing don't but is not disallowed to anyone, for if you search Him out with all your heart and soul and believe on Him, you shall be saved. This is my prayer for you that you receive Christ authentically and let go of the Satanic grace you are under.

Quote:

Many Jews were not saved in Old Testament times, as Paul tells us in Rom. 9:6-26; he says there that individual salvation is dependent on the sovereign will of God (Rom. 9:16, 18).

Many were saved also.

Quote:

God's election is unconditional, it is not based on anything seen in man (Rom. 9:16). You've really got your nerve accusing me of having a works-based belief system, a "selfish salvation"; if there's any such system here, it is yours, that of Arminianism. Saving faith is a work (Jn. 6:28-29); not in the sense of man's performing it to merit salvation, but in the sense of it being an action on his part. The Word of God says saving faith is God's gift to man, not man's gift to God (Eph. 2:8-9, Phil. 1:29). You hold the position that man provides that apart from God's grace in salvation; if anybody here is promoting a works-based system, it is you. I never assumed anything about regeneration before I believed and repented, I just did those things; but I know that I did those things only because God allowed them to me. Faith and repentance are the fruits of regeneration, not the causes of it.

Romans 9.16 is saying you can't will salvation into being or work for it like Calvinists do by just assuming you were irresistibly made to repent or be regenerated. That's selfish and pompous. Calvinists try to will salvation into being by merely assuming regeneration without any prior repentance or faith. That will never do. You as a Calvinist work for your initial salvation since it was never your choice according to your theory, so you can't really know if you are saved. All you do is work for it in hopes that it turns out. God wants you to respond to Him to His work to be saved (John 6.28) by genuinely coming to the cross instead of pompously priding yourself over others you think you were irresistibly selected and they were not. What love is this? God is the provider of sufficient grace which affords us all the choice. You said you being Totally depraved just repented and believed. How can you just repent and believe if you are Totally depraved unless your god irresistibly imposes it on you and denies sufficient grace for all? This is an inherent contradiction of your faith which brings about the two-willed theory of a secret decretive will and a revealed prescriptive will which conflict with each and then not addressing this contradiction. God doesn't want all to be saved secretly, but tells everyone He does? If your god is a doubletalker, then you are a doubletalker.

Quote:

You said, "You don't really know if you are saved, that's why you work for it.....You reveal it yourself you are unsaved...." You referred to me as "someone who is Hellbound". You continue to judge my heart, a clear violation of the Scriptures (Mat. 7:1-2, Jas. 4:12).

You judge yourself, for you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Matthew 7.1-2 does not say not to judge but that if you do judge, what judgment you judge by shall be judged upon you if you commit the same sin. I don't sin the sin of erecting an idol of Total depravity that prevents me from being able to obtain the gift of repentance and faith to truly believe in Christ and be regenerated. If you are to judge, like we throw people in jail for their crimes, make sure your judgment is the judgment of the Law Giver.

Quote:

You hear me now, sir. I'm not afraid of you or the Devil that's motivating you, and don't you ever forget it. I have every authority, whether you recognize it or not, to use Rom. 12:14 in the Name of Christ by His grace, as I am His child, despite your false accusations to the contrary. You may rebuke me all you please, but that doesn't change things, nor does it intimidate me.

You said the Devil is motivating me which is judging, but in your previous paragraph you said not to judge. The Bible says be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8). This shows you are using Scripture selfishly. You have not authority, for how can someone who is not even born-again have any authority in God's kingdom? The purpose of me telling you these things is not to intimidate you, but to tell you the truth God provides sufficient grace to all. He is a just and and fair God. Why should His standards be less than ours? He regenerates no one irresistibly. It is wrong for us to irresistibly impose ourselves on others, so it is true for God also. He rejects idols such as Total depravity, for you are made in God's image and are not Totally unable. You did not cease to be made in God's image after the fall. This is a selfish theory that you erect that prevents you from truly repenting and believing in Christ to be regenerated. Very sad. How deceitful is man's heart in his wiles and ways. Who can know how deceitful man's heart really is!

Quote:

You have attacked me unjustly. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ to defend me in this, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). You have accused me falsely of unbelief and of heresy, which I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).

You accuse yourself for you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. God is not an evil tyrant as you surmise like Hitler who from birth determines the Jews belong in the gas chambers without giving them any recourse whatsoever, or saving the Aryan race irresistibly even though they are want to remain sinners.

Think about that. God will not entertain your false and selfish salvation. One of the greatest evils of our day is Calvinism and no doubt, Satan will have his Antichrist use it in some fashion at the consummation of this age. Not everyone who says Lord, Lord, are saved. Jesus responds by saying He never knew you O prideful Calvinist man who claims to be irresistibly selected. Shame on you!
11-11-2009, 09:44 AM
briancook007

<Removed Inappropriate Title>

No, sir, you said that Lydia was saved because she worshiped God; I produced Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7 to show that just because she worshiped God, it didn't mean automatically that she was saved. Anyone who reads Acts 9:3-6 objectively knows that God moved upon Paul irresistibly, regardless of your attempts to explain it away.

No, God does not provide saving grace to the entire human race. What saith the Scriptures (NKJV)?

Psa. 65:4: "Blessed [is the man] You CHOOSE, And CAUSE to approach [You], [That] he may dwell in Your courts."

Jn. 5:21: "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to [them], even so the Son gives life to WHOM HE WILL."

Acts 11:18: "God has also GRANTED...REPENTANCE to life."

Acts 13:48: "And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Rom. 9:16, 18: "So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens."

Phil. 1:29: "For to you it has been GRANTED...TO BELIEVE in Him...."

I Tim. 6:12: "...eternal life, to which you were also CALLED..."

II Tim. 1:9: "Who has saved us and called [us] with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began."

No, Pharaoh did not harden his heart first; the first mention of Pharaoh's heart being hardened is Ex. 4:21: "And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I WILL HARDEN HIS HEART, so that he will not let the people go." A careful examination of the Hebrew of this text shows that God hardened Pharaoh's heart by leaving it in its natural state, that of a wicked, evil, totally depraved sinner, which subject can be left for another time. What does Dan. 4:35 say? "All the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And [among] the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?"

God's grace is irresistible in regeneration; what saith the Scriptures?

I Sam. 10:9: "So it was, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, that God gave him another heart."

Jn. 3:8: "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Acts 16:14: "The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul."

Tit. 3:5: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit."

You miss the point; unregenerate man is dead, separated from God. No spiritual communication can take place while he is in that state (Isa. 59:2, Jn. 9:31a); the only way God will hear him is if He regenerates him, removing that separation. He is totally depraved, regardless of any good work he may do. What saith the Scriptures (NKJV)?

Job 15:16: "How much less man, [who is] abominable and filthy, Who drinks iniquity like water!"

Isa. 1:5-6: "The whole head is sick, And the whole heart faints. From the sole of the foot even to the head, [There is] no soundness in it, [But] wounds and bruises and putrefying sores."

Isa. 64:6: "But we are all like an unclean [thing], And all our righteousnesses [are] like filthy rags."

Tit. 1:15-16: "To those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and DISQUALIFIED FOR EVERY GOOD WORK."

You said, "Romans 9.16 is saying you can't will salvation into being or work for it like Calvinists do by just assuming you were irresistibly made to repent or be regenerated. That's selfish and pompous. Calvinists try to will salvation into being by merely assuming regeneration without any prior repentance or faith. That will never do. You as a Calvinist work for your initial salvation since it was never your choice according to your theory, so you can't really know if you are saved." These comments show that you have no idea what you are talking about. Calvinists never assume anything regarding God's grace, we don't say that man has to assume that he is regenerated before he repents and believes. We say that God commands man to repent and to believe; we don't discount human responsibility, and we say that man should do those things this very day. We say that man has nothing in which to glory, that the only reason why he repents and believes is because God allows those things to him (Acts 11:18, Acts 13:48). And yes, God has two wills, a foreordinative will and a preceptive will; what saith the Scriptures (NKJV)?

Gen. 50:20: "But as for you, you meant evil against me; [but] God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as [it is] this day, to save many people alive."

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death."

Acts 4:27-28: "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done."

You fail to distinguish between judgment in human law and judgment in assuming the state of another man's heart, which you've done in clear violation of the Scriptures (Mat. 7:1-2; Jas. 4:12). When I said the Devil was motivating you, I was telling the truth. I wasn't judging your heart's state, I was being a fruit inspector (Mat. 7:15-20).

I do have authority to use any Scripture rightly, as I am God's child, despite your false accusations to the contrary. If the Lord will, I will continue to do so. You have attacked me unjustly. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ to defend me in this, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). You have accused me falsely, repeatedly of unbelief, of selfishness, of pride, of idolatry, and of "Satanic grace", which I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).
11-11-2009, 10:48 AM
Churchwork

Quote:

Originally Posted by briancook007

No, sir, you said that Lydia was saved because she worshiped God; I produced Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7 to show that just because she worshiped God, it didn't mean automatically that she was saved. Anyone who reads Acts 9:3-6 objectively knows that God moved upon Paul irresistibly, regardless of your attempts to explain it away.

You are falsely accusing Lydia, for she did not believe in God in vain. It was real, that's why when she was presented the Christ she would accept Him. Automatically she is saved, just as anyone in the OT was saved who believed in God even though Jesus hadn't been born into the world yet. What she receives at new birth is the fulfillment of her saving faith. Anyone who knows the Bible knows that you may take of the water of life freely, whosoever believeth on Him Jesus Christ. Never do we find in Scripture even once God irresistibly imposing salvation and certainly not Paul either.

Quote:

No, God does not provide saving grace to the entire human race. What saith the Scriptures (NKJV)?

Psa. 65:4: "Blessed [is the man] You CHOOSE, And CAUSE to approach [You], [That] he may dwell in Your courts."

Jn. 5:21: "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to [them], even so the Son gives life to WHOM HE WILL."

Acts 11:18: "God has also GRANTED...REPENTANCE to life."

Acts 13:48: "And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."

Rom. 9:16, 18: "So then [it is] not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens."

Phil. 1:29: "For to you it has been GRANTED...TO BELIEVE in Him...."

I Tim. 6:12: "...eternal life, to which you were also CALLED..."

II Tim. 1:9: "Who has saved us and called [us] with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began."

Where did I say everyone is saved? Obviously, people are going to Hell, that's why Hell exists, because people refuse God's saving grace. Rather, God provides sufficient grace to all to have the choice for the opportunity to be saved, for He wishes that none should perish.

Quote:

No, Pharaoh did not harden his heart first; the first mention of Pharaoh's heart being hardened is Ex. 4:21: "And the LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharaoh which I have put in your hand. But I WILL HARDEN HIS HEART, so that he will not let the people go." A careful examination of the Hebrew of this text shows that God hardened Pharaoh's heart by leaving it in its natural state, that of a wicked, evil, totally depraved sinner, which subject can be left for another time. What does Dan. 4:35 say? "All the inhabitants of the earth [are] reputed as nothing; He does according to His will in the army of heaven And [among] the inhabitants of the earth. No one can restrain His hand Or say to Him, "What have You done?"

Exodus 4.21 reads, "I WILL harden his heart. Even Piper (a calvinist) acknowledged:

Before the first active assertion of God's hardening in Exodus 9.12 there are two assertions that he [Pharaoh] hardened his own heart [8.15,32] and after 9.12 there are two assertions that he hardened his own heart [9.34,35] [Thus] Pharaoh's "self-hardening" is equally well attested before and after the first statement that God has hardened him...." (Emphasis added)

Of course God does according to His will, but not evilly as portrayed by Calvinists.

Quote:

God's grace is irresistible in regeneration; what saith the Scriptures?

I Sam. 10:9: "So it was, when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, that God gave him another heart."

Jn. 3:8: "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Acts 16:14: "The Lord opened her heart to heed the things spoken by Paul."

Tit. 3:5: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit."

You miss the point; unregenerate man is dead, separated from God. No spiritual communication can take place while he is in that state (Isa. 59:2, Jn. 9:31a); the only way God will hear him is if He regenerates him, removing that separation. He is totally depraved, regardless of any good work he may do. What saith the Scriptures (NKJV)?

Job 15:16: "How much less man, [who is] abominable and filthy, Who drinks iniquity like water!"

Isa. 1:5-6: "The whole head is sick, And the whole heart faints. From the sole of the foot even to the head, [There is] no soundness in it, [But] wounds and bruises and putrefying sores."

Isa. 64:6: "But we are all like an unclean [thing], And all our righteousnesses [are] like filthy rags."

Tit. 1:15-16: "To those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and DISQUALIFIED FOR EVERY GOOD WORK."

These verses say God opens the heart and that we are sinners, nothing about Total depravity or irresistible grace or regeneration. Try again.

Quote:

You said, "Romans 9.16 is saying you can't will salvation into being or work for it like Calvinists do by just assuming you were irresistibly made to repent or be regenerated. That's selfish and pompous. Calvinists try to will salvation into being by merely assuming regeneration without any prior repentance or faith. That will never do. You as a Calvinist work for your initial salvation since it was never your choice according to your theory, so you can't really know if you are saved." These comments show that you have no idea what you are talking about. Calvinists never assume anything regarding God's grace, we don't say that man has to assume that he is regenerated before he repents and believes. We say that God commands man to repent and to believe; we don't discount human responsibility, and we say that man should do those things this very day. We say that man has nothing in which to glory, that the only reason why he repents and believes is because God allows those things to him (Acts 11:18, Acts 13:48). And yes, God has two wills, a foreordinative will and a preceptive will; what saith the Scriptures (NKJV)?

Just because a person is allowed repentance doesn't necessitate that he will repent, for he has God-given freewill to have the free-choice to accept or refuse. How can there be true responsibility if everyone is Totally depraved and nobody can be saved in the gospel of Calvinism unless they are irresistibly made to repent! So it remains true a Calvinist chooses by his own free will to assume regeneration without prior repentance and faith; and for those smarter Calvinists who say they were regenerated after being made to repent and believe, they are equally in error because God does not impose repentance on anyone. God has one will, not two wills for He is one Being. If God had a secret foreordinative will and a revealed preceptive will, they contradict each other in your faith, for it is clearly a contradiction to say you want everyone to be saved but secretly you don't. If this is doubletalk for us, it is doubletalk for God, since His standards are not less than ours.

Quote:

Gen. 50:20: "But as for you, you meant evil against me; [but] God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as [it is] this day, to save many people alive."

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death."

Acts 4:27-28: "For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the people of Israel, were gathered together to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done."

You fail to distinguish between judgment in human law and judgment in assuming the state of another man's heart, which you've done in clear violation of the Scriptures (Mat. 7:1-2; Jas. 4:12). When I said the Devil was motivating you, I was telling the truth. I wasn't judging your heart's state, I was being a fruit inspector (Mat. 7:15-20).

The law is not removed from judging the heart of another when a verdict is rendered. The judgment is upon you but not upon me because I don't believe your false teaching. When I spoke the truth that you are not born-again it is a judgment upon you; there is no doubt for what I received from God is the truth and not a lie about your unsalvation. The reason you say men are not allowed to judge is so they don't judge YOU which points to you as the center of the universe. Shame on you!

Quote:

I do have authority to use any Scripture rightly, as I am God's child, despite your false accusations to the contrary. If the Lord will, I will continue to do so. You have attacked me unjustly. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ to defend me in this, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). You have accused me falsely, repeatedly of unbelief, of selfishness, of pride, of idolatry, and of "Satanic grace", which I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).

You are not born-again, because you still refuse to repent and believe on Christ to be regenerated. That's the bottom line. God wants a real relationship and can't have one with you if continue to resist His will. Jesus will not defend someone who refuses His requirement of true repentance and faith. Christians can see your shallow unrepentant heart by your overassuming.

I refuse your blessing, for it is the blessing of an unsaved man who exalts himself above non-believers on the assumption he was regenerated without having to repent and believe while they were allegedly given no grace to receive the opportunity to be saved. What love is this? Certainly not the love of God of the Bible.

You're under demonic possession where you think you are saved but are not. It moves you and guides you as it did to entice you into a selfish salvation where did not have to repent and believe to be regenerated. So you work for your salvation that was not your choice according to your belief as it was irresistibly imposed on you and because you can never really be sure if you were selected when it is not your choice.
11-11-2009, 10:56 AM
Churchwork

I was praying for you the way you post, and I think you would be better served to realize being vague is your problem. What you do is look at a verse and assume into it things like Total depravity or irresistible regeneration. Try to examine a verse more closely and with precision to see you can't do that. Only extract from a verse what it says and no more. Your mistaken assumptions are killing you and are way to loose with the Scriptures for your doctrine. A person can make the words of God say anything with that approach.
11-12-2009, 11:00 AM
briancook007

<inappropriate title>

You are accusing me falsely by your saying that I have accused Lydia falsely. She was baptized immediately thereafter (Acts 16:15), which shows that the previous verse indicates her salvation, just as the Philippian jailor was baptized immediately upon his faith (Acts 16:30-33). Rev. 22:17 c & d say, "And LET HIM that is athirst COME. And whosoever will, LET HIM TAKE the water of life freely." Again, in the Greek both of these statements are in the imperative mood, which means that they are commands, not invitations. The Word gives the first command to whoever is thirsty; unregenerate, totally depraved man is never thirsty for salvation, he is satisfied with his own sin, for the Scripture saith, "How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?" (Job 15:16). The second command is given to "whosoever WILL (Gr. "thelo")", whoever has a desire for it; the only way totally depraved, unregenerate man ever has a desire for salvation is if God allows that to him, for what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 53:6: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way."

John 3:27: "A man can receive NOTHING, except it be GIVEN him from heaven."

John 6:44: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him."

John 6:65: "No man can come unto me, except it were GIVEN unto him of my Father."

Rom. 3:11: "There is none that understandeth, there is NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD."

Rom. 11:7: "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it...."

John 4:10: "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest THE GIFT OF GOD, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; THOU WOULDEST HAVE ASKED OF HIM, and he would have given thee living water."

Eph. 2:8-9: "For by grace are ye saved through FAITH; and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is THE GIFT OF GOD: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Psa. 9:17: "The wicked shall be turned into hell."

Psa. 58:3: "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

Eph. 2:1-3: "And you hath he quickened, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and WERE BY NATURE THE CHILDREN OF WRATH, even as others."

You believe man provides saving faith in and of himself apart from God's grace? What saith the Scriptures (Mat. 16:16-17)?

"And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for FLESH AND BLOOD HATH NOT REVEALED IT UNTO THEE, BUT MY FATHER which is in heaven."

Anyone who reads Acts 9:1-6 & 15 objectively knows that God moved upon Paul irresistibly in salvation, for the Scriptures say:

"And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a CHOSEN VESSEL UNTO ME, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel."

No, God does not provide "sufficient grace to all to have the choice for the opportunity to be saved"; He COMMANDS man to repent and to believe. What saith the Scriptures?

Acts 17:30: "God...commandeth all men every where to repent."

Rom. 1:18-20: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."

Regarding Pharaoh, you're thinking two-dimensionally; just because it says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, the point remains that before any mention is made of that, God had said already that He would harden his heart (Ex. 4:12). Again, a careful examination of the Hebrew shows that God hardened Pharaoh's heart by leaving it in its natural state, that of a totally depraved, wretched sinner. Paul uses Pharaoh as an example of a reprobate sinner, even raising the question of injustice, something that never appears in the Arminian system. Regarding any injustice that may be inferred by man, what saith the Scriptures (Rom. 9:14-22)?

"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

Regarding man's sinful natural state and God's sovereign grace in regeneration, what saith the Scriptures?

I Sam. 10:9: "And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart."

Jn. 3:8: "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

Acts 16:14: "Whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Acts 18:27: "...them...which had BELIEVED THROUGH GRACE..."

Tit. 3:5: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

Tit. 1:15-16: "Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16: They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK REPROBATE."

Isa. 59:2: "But your iniquities have SEPARATED between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that HE WILL NOT HEAR."

Jn. 9:31: "Now we know that God HEARETH NOT SINNERS."

Job 15:16: "How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?"

Isa. 1:5-6: "The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Isa. 64:6-7: "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. And there is NONE THAT CALLETH UPON THY NAME, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: FOR THOU HAST HID THY FACE FROM US, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities."

Those verses do teach total depravity and irresistible grace, regardless of your attempts to explain them away.

Again, you don't know what you're talking about. Calvinism never says that one should assume he's been regenerated before he believes and repents; it says that man must do those things this very day. Yes, God does have a foreordinative will and a preceptive will; for what saith the Scriptures?

Gen. 50:20: "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."

Jer. 25:9-12: "Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar THE KING OF BABYLON, my servant, and WILL BRING THEM AGAINST THIS LAND, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I WILL PUNISH THE KING OF BABYLON, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations."

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

Acts 11:18 says, "Then hath God...GRANTED REPENTANCE unto life."; He didn't grant the possibility of repentance, He granted REPENTANCE. Acts 13:48 says, "and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Regarding man's responsibility in faith and repentance and concerning God's two wills, you continue to try to understand Him completely; that's not possible, we're finite. I don't understand how He can be three Persons and one God simultaneously, but that doesn't negate the fact that the Bible teaches it.

No, sir, you are not permitted to judge another man's heart, to say that he's an unbeliever; you have accused me falsely in this, shame on YOU!

You have accused me falsely of demonic possession. Very interesting. The unregenerate Pharisees levelled the same accusation against Christ, for what saith the Scriptures?

Mk. 3:30: "Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit."

Jn. 8:48: "Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?"

You can refuse or can rebuke any blessing you please, but that won't stop me from giving it by God's grace, as He has commanded. I do have authority to use any Scripture rightly, as I am God's child, despite your false accusations to the contrary. If the Lord will, I will continue to do so. You have attacked me unjustly. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ to defend me in this, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). You have accused me falsely, repeatedly of unbelief, of making a false accusation, of selfishness, of pride, of arrogance, and of demonic possession, all of which I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).
11-12-2009, 11:15 AM
briancook007

<inappropriate title>

Boy, isn't that "the pot calling the kettle 'black'". The only person in this debate who's engaging in eisegesis is you, sir. You say you've prayed for me; have you never read Mat. 7:1-5, where the Scriptures say:

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
11-12-2009, 03:54 PM
Churchwork

You're still not saved: don't want to be saved God's way

Quote:

Originally Posted by briancook007

You are accusing me falsely by your saying that I have accused Lydia falsely. She was baptized immediately thereafter (Acts 16:15), which shows that the previous verse indicates her salvation, just as the Philippian jailor was baptized immediately upon his faith (Acts 16:30-33). Rev. 22:17 c & d say, "And LET HIM that is athirst COME. And whosoever will, LET HIM TAKE the water of life freely." Again, in the Greek both of these statements are in the imperative mood, which means that they are commands, not invitations. The Word gives the first command to whoever is thirsty; unregenerate, totally depraved man is never thirsty for salvation, he is satisfied with his own sin, for the Scripture saith, "How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?" (Job 15:16). The second command is given to "whosoever WILL (Gr. "thelo")", whoever has a desire for it; the only way totally depraved, unregenerate man ever has a desire for salvation is if God allows that to him, for what saith the Scriptures?

You brought up Lydia claiming she was irresistibly made to believe when you originally wrote, "The only way God can hear him is to regenerate him, making him alive in Christ; only then does spiritual communication occur.... Please notice what Acts 16:14 says: 'whose heart the Lord opened, THAT SHE ATTENDED unto the things that were spoken of Paul' (KJV)." The reason why Lydia was receptive was because "she worshiped God" as anyone who already believed in God would be. They would accept the Son. The Hebrews who anticipated the Messiah would receive Him. Paul didn't say she was a non-believer, but that she believed in God, so upon hearing Paul speak she was open to receiving Jesus into her life. This new birth she received the Holy Spirit could indwell this new life. What you are failing to understand is that even if she were to die and never have seen Jesus, she would be saved, because she believed in God. How wrong it is of you to accuse an ancient Israelite who believed of God that he would go to Hell only because he hadn't seen Jesus yet. You are falsely accusing Lydia of going to Hell (prior to her encounter with Paul) as well as being irresistibly forced to believe in Jesus. It's not the case at all. Her believing in God naturally brings her into accepting the Lord Jesus for Jesus is one with the Father. If you receive the Father, you'll receive the Son; and if you receive the Son you'll receive the Father. Special grace of the Gospel is more abundant grace give to the rest of the world in need, and all things point back to Christ in which all things are summed up in Him.

This is an appeal to people to come: "The Spirit and the bride say, 'Come.' Let each one who hears them say, 'Come.' Let the thirsty ones come--anyone who wants to. Let them come and drink the water of life without charge." Whoever desires may come. God commands people to do something, but that doesn't mean they will necessarily do it. God does His righteous part and they have their response incumbent upon them by this invitation. The imperative mood is: "a mood that expresses an intention to influence the listener's behavior." Influence doesn't necessitate absolute decretum. Influence can only go so far. You assume whosoever and desire can not be obtained by the person unless is it is irresistibly imposed on him, but such is not the case for God's grace is sufficient that whosoever is willing may desire after God and receive his saving grace. Man is not Totally unable. He is still made in God's image though fallen. The difference between your god and God of the Bible is this central facet that unrighteously yours is unwilling to die for the sins of the whole world, because he is either impotent to be able to do so or unwilling.

Quote:

Isa. 53:6: "All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way."

John 3:27: "A man can receive NOTHING, except it be GIVEN him from heaven."

John 6:44: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him."

John 6:65: "No man can come unto me, except it were GIVEN unto him of my Father."

Rom. 3:11: "There is none that understandeth, there is NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD."

Rom. 11:7: "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it...."

John 4:10: "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest THE GIFT OF GOD, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; THOU WOULDEST HAVE ASKED OF HIM, and he would have given thee living water."

Eph. 2:8-9: "For by grace are ye saved through FAITH; and THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES: it is THE GIFT OF GOD: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Psa. 9:17: "The wicked shall be turned into hell."

Psa. 58:3: "The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies."

Eph. 2:1-3: "And you hath he quickened, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and WERE BY NATURE THE CHILDREN OF WRATH, even as others."

You believe man provides saving faith in and of himself apart from God's grace? What saith the Scriptures (Mat. 16:16-17)?

"And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for FLESH AND BLOOD HATH NOT REVEALED IT UNTO THEE, BUT MY FATHER which is in heaven."

These verses speak of propensity of man's sin nature, not Total inability. You can still help an old lady across the street. It might help to realize that man wouldn't exist without God or be called if He did not first choose and love us, so it is true with the drawing power of God, but that is not to say God does so irresistibly. He is such a big God He can supply all with enabling grace so that none are without excuse.

Quote:

Anyone who reads Acts 9:1-6 & 15 objectively knows that God moved upon Paul irresistibly in salvation, for the Scriptures say:

"And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a CHOSEN VESSEL UNTO ME, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel."

Jesus presented Himself to Paul, and Paul employed his free will to say "Lord, what wilt though have me do?" He could have remained hardened. This was within his realm of choices. Don't read into the text irresistibly imposed and forced into believing Jesus.

Quote:

No, God does not provide "sufficient grace to all to have the choice for the opportunity to be saved"; He COMMANDS man to repent and to believe. What saith the Scriptures?

Acts 17:30: "God...commandeth all men every where to repent."

Rom. 1:18-20: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse."

Regarding Pharaoh, you're thinking two-dimensionally; just because it says that Pharaoh hardened his own heart, the point remains that before any mention is made of that, God had said already that He would harden his heart (Ex. 4:12). Again, a careful examination of the Hebrew shows that God hardened Pharaoh's heart by leaving it in its natural state, that of a totally depraved, wretched sinner. Paul uses Pharaoh as an example of a reprobate sinner, even raising the question of injustice, something that never appears in the Arminian system. Regarding any injustice that may be inferred by man, what saith the Scriptures (Rom. 9:14-22)?

"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

"God has shewed it unto them" is God's common grace coming unto all men. God commanding and pleading and inviting are not mutually exclusive of His common grace or special grace. You're missing the point about Ex. 4.21, for in there we see it is a foretelling of what will happen, which is not actively happening yet. Even Piper as was shown admitted the first instance of active usage was the Pharaoh hardening his own heart first. This is shows disagreement within the Calvinist camp. Rarely do you find such disagreement with OSAS Arminians. The disagreement among Calvinists is far and wide, because it is hard to rationalize false teaching. It seems like there are as man different views of Calvinism as there are denominations, though all centered on Total depravity with some irresistible imposition without affording the person true genuine choice of their free will by denying its sufficiently supplied grace to all. You seemed to pass over Piper's comment with no mention of it at all. The Pharaoh's heart is not Totally depraved, for at any point he had the free will to not be a hard case which does not conflict with God's foreknowledge of his actions; as he continued to remain obstinate, God harden his heart further to bring about the plagues and show God's mighty work of deliverance against seemingly impossible odds.

Injustice is never raised in Arminianism? You're obviously foaming at the mouth. The injustice is seen in God hardening the Pharaoh's heart for continuing to keep the Hebrews as slaves for 430 years. OSAS Arminians don't see the justice in making the Pharaoh from birth without any recourse destined for Hell. If such attitude is evil for man to behave that way towards fellow man, then God having standards higher than ours would consider such tyranny unacceptable in His own heart. God is not an evil tyrant as you surmise and portray, no matter how much you try to make Him out to be. Your conscience has no sensitivity to this so like many Calvinists before you, God will continue to harden your heart till you reach that breaking point when you then and only then possibly give your life to Christ.

In Romans 9.19 we don't find the one who blames God as blaming Him for irresistible regeneration or denying sufficient grace. Rather in God's infinite wisdom, He shows mercy on whom He shows mercy because He knows what is sufficient grace for all. For example, there is no requirement to give a certain someone more grace than is needed if he were to come to Christ with much less grace. That the one who blames God and misperceives Him is left with Paul responding by saying, who are you to judge God? Reminds me of a Calvinist trying to get into God's head and judging Him for being the God who is able to provide sufficient and enabling grace to all to give us free choice that is only truly free when sufficient grace is bestowed upon all. A Calvinists envisions a god who can't do this.

Quote:

Regarding man's sinful natural state and God's sovereign grace in regeneration, what saith the Scriptures?

I Sam. 10:9: "And it was so, that when he had turned his back to go from Samuel, God gave him another heart."

Jn. 3:8: "The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

Acts 16:14: "Whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Acts 18:27: "...them...which had BELIEVED THROUGH GRACE..."

Tit. 3:5: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost."

Tit. 1:15-16: "Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16: They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK REPROBATE."

Isa. 59:2: "But your iniquities have SEPARATED between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that HE WILL NOT HEAR."

Jn. 9:31: "Now we know that God HEARETH NOT SINNERS."

Job 15:16: "How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?"

Isa. 1:5-6: "The whole head is sick, and the whole heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is no soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Isa. 64:6-7: "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. And there is NONE THAT CALLETH UPON THY NAME, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee: FOR THOU HAST HID THY FACE FROM US, and hast consumed us, because of our iniquities."

Those verses do teach total depravity and irresistible grace, regardless of your attempts to explain them away.

None of these verses indicate irresistible grace, but certainly sufficient grace each according to whom it is given, showing mercy upon whom He shows mercy. God never gives a person more than he can handle and never denies the amount needed to believe on Him. These verses speak of the sinful nature of man. They don't necessitate the Total inability of Total depravity, nor does the sovereign grace of God require irresistible imputation, but regeneration follows repentance and faith as God pleads with us to do so. Propensity to sin never equals necessity. Willfulness never requires Total inability. If He wishes that none should perish, then if he were to deny even one human being ample grace to have a true authentic free choice before Him with respect to God, then God would be negligent. God will not go against His righteous an holy nature.

"What must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved" (Acts 16.30-31). "We have also obtained access by faith into this grace" (Rom. 5.2), "for by grace are ye saved through faith" (Eph. 2.8). Faith comes before salvation (regeneration).

What more clearer appeal is there?

Quote:

Again, you don't know what you're talking about. Calvinism never says that one should assume he's been regenerated before he believes and repents; it says that man must do those things this very day. Yes, God does have a foreordinative will and a preceptive will; for what saith the Scriptures?

Gen. 50:20: "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, to bring to pass, as it is this day, to save much people alive."

Jer. 25:9-12: "Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar THE KING OF BABYLON, my servant, and WILL BRING THEM AGAINST THIS LAND, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I WILL PUNISH THE KING OF BABYLON, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations."

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

Acts 11:18 says, "Then hath God...GRANTED REPENTANCE unto life."; He didn't grant the possibility of repentance, He granted REPENTANCE. Acts 13:48 says, "and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." Regarding man's responsibility in faith and repentance and concerning God's two wills, you continue to try to understand Him completely; that's not possible, we're finite. I don't understand how He can be three Persons and one God simultaneously, but that doesn't negate the fact that the Bible teaches it.

The command to do these things is irrelevant to a Calvinist because he assumes he is regenerated to make him do those things, but how is repentance and faith that is forced upon someone true repentance and faith? The type of repentance and faith to a Calvinists is not the same to an Arminian, for the latter comes to Christ as helpless sinners to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior, but the former though claiming were selected, are just assuming it without the prior repentance and faith necessary to enter into a genuine relationship. Hopefully you are beginning to see how selfish and corrupt the lie of Calvinism is by erecting this idol of Total depravity that keeps you from entering into a genuine relationship with Christ Jesus.

God does not have these two wills you claim, for they contradict each other. There is no secret will that conflicts with God's revealed will. You are not allowed to insert anything into God's secrets, like all cults do. Genesis, Jeremiah ands Acts verses you gave present no secret contradictory will where God doesn't want everyone to be saved and then outwardly claims He does. Absurd! There is nothing the flesh can't rationalize. God is not doubleminded. It is in the contradiction that the cult is exposed. Knowing God worketh evil for good is not a contradiction with anything God does as is for Calvinism's two contradiction wills.

I don't know everything about God but I do know when a contradiction is brought out, there is something wrong. God has one will not two wills. A second will that is secret is invoked to rationalize the false teaching of Total depravity. The many that are ordained to eternal life are those whom God foreknew who would receive Him. Thus, they are ordained in His divine providential care. A lot of people have troubles with God's 3 Persons, but it really isn't that complicated when you think of how complex God must be His 3 Persons express that better than anything else. Intuitively I know I pray to the Father through the Son by the Holy Spirit in my spirit. Yet a Calvinist tries to get into God's head by asking the question, Why do some people choose God and some don't? Instead of just accepting we are sovereign beings made in His image with free will, the Calvinism formulates a theology surrounding why some people choose and some don't.

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No, sir, you are not permitted to judge another man's heart, to say that he's an unbeliever; you have accused me falsely in this, shame on YOU!

You have accused me falsely of demonic possession. Very interesting. The unregenerate Pharisees levelled the same accusation against Christ, for what saith the Scriptures?

Mk. 3:30: "Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit."

Jn. 8:48: "Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?"

You can refuse or can rebuke any blessing you please, but that won't stop me from giving it by God's grace, as He has commanded. I do have authority to use any Scripture rightly, as I am God's child, despite your false accusations to the contrary. If the Lord will, I will continue to do so. You have attacked me unjustly. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ to defend me in this, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). You have accused me falsely, repeatedly of unbelief, of making a false accusation, of selfishness, of pride, of arrogance, and of demonic possession, all of which I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).

Whereas the Pharisees could not prove their accusations against Jesus, it is proven that you are not born-again and are demonically possessed, unable to extricate yourself from the hold the evil spirit has on you under this Satanic grace in which you pompously exalt yourself by alleging you were regenerated without having to repent and believe in Christ. Talk about a selfish salvation! You get to eat your cake and eat it too as you stack the deck for yourself. This judgment that is upon you is like how Jesus said, if you won't accept Moses an the prophets before Him, how will you accept God the Son? Jesus says He doesn't have to judge you, but the prophets of old judge you because you worship a false Messiah one which is just for show, since you are allegedly irresistibly selected anyway and others you claim are passed over from birth and there was nothing they could do about. You don't have a conscience to realize how evil and corrupt this is.

You continue to remain in the same unwillingness to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Incidentally, this is why you work so hard for your salvation because it was never your choice, so you really don't know if you are saved or not, thereby hoping that if you keep up the good work this will secure your assumed salvation.

My prayers go out to you that you yet may give your life to Christ one day like this Calvinist did at a Southern Baptist Convention. Your prayers are rebuked in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, for they come from the evil spirit who has got you under a false salvation. There is only one way God saves. He predestinates by foreknowing your free-choice: a conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, for preservation of the saints (OSAS).

Amen.

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Boy, isn't that "the pot calling the kettle 'black'". The only person in this debate who's engaging in eisegesis is you, sir. You say you've prayed for me; have you never read Mat. 7:1-5, where the Scriptures say:

"Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

Your unwillingness to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated is no small thing.
11-13-2009, 10:55 AM
briancook007

You proceed from a false premise. Your argument is that Lydia was saved before Acts 16:14 because she worshiped God, that that proves that she was believer; I produced Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7 to refute that, showing your logic to be faulty. Paul never said that she was a believer before Acts 16:14; that is erroneous.

Did you read what I wrote about Rev. 22:17c & d? Those two statements are in the IMPERATIVE MOOD in the Greek, which means they are COMMANDS, not invitations. Mk. 1:15 is in the imperative mood; what saith the Scripture? "Repent ye, and believe the gospel." No, man does not have a propensity to sin, it is his nature to do nothing but to sin apart from God's grace. Man isn't totally depraved? What saith the Scriptures?

Gen. 6:5: "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Gen. 8:21: "The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth."

Job 25:4-6: "How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight. How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?"

Psa. 10:4: "The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts."

Psa. 51:5: "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Jer. 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

Jer. 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

Lk. 16:31: "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Rom. 8:5-8: "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is DEATH; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed CAN BE. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

I Cor. 12:3: "No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

Eph. 4:18-19: "Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness."

Col. 2:12-13: "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses."

I Tim. 5:6: "But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth."

Unregenerate man can help others, but what saith the Scriptures regarding that (Tit. 1:15-16)?

"Unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

You say irresistible grace isn't necessary for man to repent and to believe. What saith the Scriptures?

Eccl. 7:13: "Consider the WORK OF GOD: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?"

Jn. 6:28-29: "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the WORK OF GOD, THAT YE BELIEVE on him whom he hath sent."

Phil. 1:6: "Being confident of this very thing, that HE which HATH BEGUN A GOOD WORK in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

Rom. 2:4: "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God LEADETH thee to repentance?"

Eph. 1:19-20: "And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead."

Phil. 3:12: "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I AM APPREHENDED of Christ Jesus."

You say God didn't move upon Paul irresistibly in Acts 9:1-6? Are you serious? Paul "fell to the earth" while he was on his way to persecute God's people! God changed his sinful nature right then and there, regenerating him and giving him the gifts of both faith and repentance.

John Piper is not the authority; the Scriptures are. The first mention of Pharaoh's heart being hardened is Ex. 4:12, before it ever is said that he hardened his own heart. Again, a careful examination of the Hebrew shows that God hardened his heart by leaving it in its natural state, that of a totally depraved, wretched sinner. If there's any kind of uniformity of belief among OSAS Arminians, it's because Satan never divides against himself (Mk. 3:25-26), Arminianism being false doctrine, heresy.

No, injustice in God never is raised in the Arminian system; man always gets what he deserves. You Arminians are the ones who accuse God of injustice; reprobation makes no sense to the carnal mind, which is why you people reject it.

When you quoted Rom. 5:2, you forgot to quote Col. 2:12; what saith the Scripture? "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through THE FAITH OF THE OPERATION OF GOD, who hath raised him from the dead."

You again show your complete ignorance of Calvinistic teaching; we don't say man should assume he's regenerated before he repents and believes, we say he should do those things this very day, this very moment. You said, "The type of repentance and faith to a Calvinists is not the same to an Arminian...." You got that part right. You Arminians say that man provides faith and repentance in and of himself apart from God's grace, while we Calvinists say correctly, scripturally, that those two things are God's gifts to man, not man's gifts to God. I wonder if the thought ever has occurred to you people that the primary object of your system is to glorify MAN, whereas the object of Calvinism is to glorify GOD.

Your ignorance of the facts is showing badly. Christ was murdered when He was crucified, a direct violation of the Sixth Commandment, God's preceptive will; but, what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 53:4: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, SMITTEN OF GOD, and afflicted."

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

You say God doesn't have a secret will? What saith the Scripture? (Deut. 29:29)? "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law."

You said, "Your prayers are rebuked in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, for they come from the evil spirit who has got you under a false salvation." You have no authority to rebuke my prayers, and I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit to defend me in this, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). You hear me again, sir. I'm not afraid of you or the Devil that's motivating you, and don't you ever forget it. By God's grace, you will not deter me, you will not intimidate me; by His grace, I'm not going away. If the Lord will, I will continue to defend the truth of Calvinism in this forum.

You have accused me falsely of demonic possession, the very same charge the Pharisees levelled against Christ (Mk. 3:30, Jn. 8:48). Those Pharisees were unregenerate, lost, REPROBATE. Very interesting. How very true are the words of Spurgeon when he said, "I believe the man who is not willing to submit to the electing love and sovereign grace of God, has great reason to question whether he is a Christian at all, for the spirit that kicks against that is the spirit of the devil, and the spirit of the unhumbled, unrenewed heart."

You have attacked me unjustly. You have accused me falsely, repeatedly of unbelief, repeatedly of working for my salvation, repeatedly of demonic possession, of making false accusations, of cowardice, of cultism, of "Satanic grace", of my alleging that I was "regenerated without having to repent and believe in Christ", and of selfishness. You can refuse or can rebuke any blessing or prayer you please, but that won't stop me from giving them by God's grace, as He has commanded. I do have authority to use any Scripture rightly, as I am God's child, despite your false accusations to the contrary. If the Lord will, I will continue to do so. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ in His Name to defend me in these things, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). All these wrongs I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).
11-13-2009, 03:58 PM
Churchwork

Quote:

Originally Posted by briancook007

You proceed from a false premise. Your argument is that Lydia was saved before Acts 16:14 because she worshiped God, that that proves that she was believer; I produced Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7 to refute that, showing your logic to be faulty. Paul never said that she was a believer before Acts 16:14; that is erroneous.

Matthew 15.9 and Mark 7.7 don't refute that Lydia believed in God as was explained "sebo" can be unto to God or away from God. You are repeating yourself but not responding to my response about this. Where was Lydia talked about prior to Acts 16.14 either way? The first thing mentioned about Lydia is that she believed in God. Do you see also your problem where you would have everyone in the OT be unsaved because they hadn't seen Jesus? That's illogical. You're avoiding this point too, for you have not responded to it yet. People from the OT could be saved also. Please address this and stop avoiding this point. "Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God" then "heard [us]" (Acts 16.14). Whether she had believed God or not is actually irrelevant anyway, because it was her choice. Whether she had already believed in God (which she did) or come to believe in Him just then still doesn't change the fact it was her choice to respond. My belief is because she already believed in God she was once-saved-always-saved so her decision was already made when presented the Christ she could not deny Him. Either way you look at it, you can't turn this scene into a defense for Calvinism which is why you brought it up in the first place. You'll have to look elsewhere.

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Did you read what I wrote about Rev. 22:17c & d? Those two statements are in the IMPERATIVE MOOD in the Greek, which means they are COMMANDS, not invitations. Mk. 1:15 is in the imperative mood; what saith the Scripture? "Repent ye, and believe the gospel." No, man does not have a propensity to sin, it is his nature to do nothing but to sin apart from God's grace. Man isn't totally depraved? What saith the Scriptures?

Gen. 6:5: "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

Gen. 8:21: "The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth."

Job 25:4-6: "How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight. How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?"

Psa. 10:4: "The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts."

Psa. 51:5: "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

Jer. 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

Jer. 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

Lk. 16:31: "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

Rom. 8:5-8: "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is DEATH; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed CAN BE. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

I Cor. 12:3: "No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."

Eph. 4:18-19: "Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness."

Col. 2:12-13: "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses."

I Tim. 5:6: "But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth."

Unregenerate man can help others, but what saith the Scriptures regarding that (Tit. 1:15-16)?

You're like a Mormon who quotes lots of stuff as though it agrees with him. You need quality not quantity. You need to get specific with a verse rather than be a regurgitation machine. Your use of imperative mood goes beyond the Scripture usage and definition: "a mood that expresses an intention to influence the listener's behavior" does not demand irresistibly forcing. That's reaching. That God demands something and call people to do something does not mean He forces it, nor does it mean they will respond. With authority He says to repent and believe and by so doing He is appealing to us. It is both a command and an invitation whosoever believeth in Him--though not passive invitation on God's part but He actively pleads with us.

You are wrong that man only ever does wrong, for I know some people who help old ladies across the street. And even atheists have charities. None of these verses you quoted from the Bible indicate man is Totally depraved. Certainly man is fallen and his propensity is to sin. His willfulness to sin is most apparent, but He is not Totally unable. Man would not exist without God; likewise man needs God's grace and assistance in all things. That is not the issue before us. The issue before us is you are trying to find a verse that teaches irresistible grace and imposed salvation in which your god is partial to some and not to others he passes over by preterition. You've thus far failed all your life in the eyes of a Christian who looks at your work.

The mistake you are making in the above verses is that of a legalizer: like an unethical bad lawyer that turns a grey into an absolute. Not one of these verses you can show clearly points to Total depravity of Total inability. Therefore, we can conclude you erect this idol in order to claim you couldn't repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated as an excuse not to. God's grace was sufficient for you, but you deny the ability He gave you to obtain this gift of repentance and faith truly come to Him with an honest heart, thus placing yourself under a passivity of control by demonic forces to take possession of your will and give your responsibility before God.

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"Unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

You say irresistible grace isn't necessary for man to repent and to believe. What saith the Scriptures?

Eccl. 7:13: "Consider the WORK OF GOD: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?"

Jn. 6:28-29: "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the WORK OF GOD, THAT YE BELIEVE on him whom he hath sent."

Phil. 1:6: "Being confident of this very thing, that HE which HATH BEGUN A GOOD WORK in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

Rom. 2:4: "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God LEADETH thee to repentance?"

Eph. 1:19-20: "And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead."

Phil. 3:12: "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I AM APPREHENDED of Christ Jesus."

Again observe the verses you give, for not one of them say a person is irresistibly made to repent and be saved and others passed over and not given the grace to have the choice. God is not partial. He is impartial. His grace is sufficient for all. I know this is hard for you to believe, but it is true because in the Bible God dies for the sins of the whole and wishes that none should perish. The issue before us is not whether God supplies grace and that grace is needed, for of course it is. The issue is whether God is impotent that he needs to irresistibly impose it on some and deny it sufficiently to others, but you could find no such verses, and so you remain a child of perdition as you exalt yourself over others, but you are no less a child of perdition than they are. And the reason is clear, because you refused to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Instead you took an assuming stance which you claim was having been made irresistibly to believe. This is a selfish salvation without true repentance and faith God require from you. He sets the condition which you deny for "whosoever believeth".

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You say God didn't move upon Paul irresistibly in Acts 9:1-6? Are you serious? Paul "fell to the earth" while he was on his way to persecute God's people! God changed his sinful nature right then and there, regenerating him and giving him the gifts of both faith and repentance.

God can make a person fall to the earth, but the person who falls to the earth still has the free-choice to respond to God's conviction. God was able to change Paul's sinful nature because Paul responded to God's call. Paul was one man who needed that much grace to be saved. Of course many who receive even that much grace would still reject God so God need not throw them to the ground anyway.

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John Piper is not the authority; the Scriptures are. The first mention of Pharaoh's heart being hardened is Ex. 4:12, before it ever is said that he hardened his own heart. Again, a careful examination of the Hebrew shows that God hardened his heart by leaving it in its natural state, that of a totally depraved, wretched sinner. If there's any kind of uniformity of belief among OSAS Arminians, it's because Satan never divides against himself (Mk. 3:25-26), Arminianism being false doctrine, heresy.

I'll say, he is not even born-again, as a Calvinist. It's interesting the Calvinists can't agree with each other. But he is right about the fact that the first instance mentioned of hardening was not the active moment, but of God foreseeing. Why do you continue to overlook this fact? You don't respond to it. The first active hardening was the Pharaoh hardening his own heart. You don't read the Bible very well. The Pharaoh is not Totally depraved. No man is. This is an idol you erect that keeps you separated from God, causing you to be unwilling to repent and believe in Him to be regenerated, which you even admit you have not and will not. Satan is the false accuser to the last through you where there is this strong agreement in the Body you call it evil. Which makes sense, because you are not a member of the body of Christ, but do Satan's bidding. It is Satan that wants you not to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated, and you give into this selfish nature not to.

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No, injustice in God never is raised in the Arminian system; man always gets what he deserves. You Arminians are the ones who accuse God of injustice; reprobation makes no sense to the carnal mind, which is why you people reject it.

Yes, God did raise up Jacob Arminius in response to the heresies of Calvinism. Arminianism doesn't say man does not get what he deserves, but we do say that God is not an unjust God who does not provide ample grace. Reprobation, those going to perdition need not be by preterition, for God is a fair and just God and would want none to perish so He does all He must to the uttermost of His righteousness to save the most and damn the least. The carnal mind makes God an evil tyrant with morals less than man's and equal to Hitler by sending them from birth like the Jews to the gas chambers without any opportunity of escape and receive the love of God. What love is this?

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When you quoted Rom. 5:2, you forgot to quote Col. 2:12; what saith the Scripture? "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through THE FAITH OF THE OPERATION OF GOD, who hath raised him from the dead."

That's obnoxious. I don't speak to people like that, nor should you. I don't say you forgot to quote one of many verses. I forgot to quote a verse, one of thousands of verse you just popped out and said I didn't quote? Please. This faith is not the saving faith unto regeneration, but it is the faithfulness one has after being saved, so one who is saved gets baptized. A person who has died with Christ on the cross naturally gets buried in baptism and rises up with Him and out of the world. A person who is born-again is already saved. The act of baptism of the Spirit is experienced as result of this new life. Calvin thought salvation was before or at baptism before even believing in God as an infant. That's the consistent and common assumption that plagues Calvinism to assume regeneration without prior genuine repentance and faith. That's twisted to get buried before dying. The very pride you exhume from that day of first assuming regeneration without repentance and faith can't help but rear its ugly head in pride again and again. And this is how you come across. It's palpable. You can't sense it though. You're hovering on the surface oblivious.

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You again show your complete ignorance of Calvinistic teaching; we don't say man should assume he's regenerated before he repents and believes, we say he should do those things this very day, this very moment. You said, "The type of repentance and faith to a Calvinists is not the same to an Arminian...." You got that part right. You Arminians say that man provides faith and repentance in and of himself apart from God's grace, while we Calvinists say correctly, scripturally, that those two things are God's gifts to man, not man's gifts to God. I wonder if the thought ever has occurred to you people that the primary object of your system is to glorify MAN, whereas the object of Calvinism is to glorify GOD.

I am sure you say you shouldn't assume you are regenerated because that would be of self, but nonetheless, you do assume you were regenerated without prior repentance and faith because you admit by the idol of Total depravity you couldn't repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Your mistaken assumption got the better of you. Arminians don't say what you accuse of that repentance comes from man, not at all. Rather, we may obtain the gift of repentance and faith by coming to God with an honest heart, so you are clearing mistaken in misrepresenting Christians when you said, "Arminians say that man provides faith and repentance in and of himself apart from God's grace." In fact, this very thing you claim is what you engender because it was against God's grace to merely assume regeneration without any true heart felt repentance and prior believe to be saved. It's sad the Calvinist doesn't realize his grand assumption and self-exaltation is his pretentious gift to Satan. The objective of Christianity, and thus agreed to by Arminian, is to glorify God for God created us to have a relationship with us and none is higher than Him. Whereas in Calvinism you glorify evil, the evil that sends people to Hell without recourse from birth when there was nothing they could do about it, they were just born that way, and he irresistibly imposes this alleged salvation you claim you have. This is utterly evil, but you don't have a conscience to sense your erroneous thinking, because you don't want to be saved God's way. And that's very sad, very sad indeed.

It should be enough for you to leave Calvinism by recognizing the contradiction of your god who claims he wants all to be saved openly, but secretly he doesn't. God is not a doubletalker but your god is. Repent!

Quote:

Your ignorance of the facts is showing badly. Christ was murdered when He was crucified, a direct violation of the Sixth Commandment, God's preceptive will; but, what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 53:4: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, SMITTEN OF GOD, and afflicted."

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

You say God doesn't have a secret will? What saith the Scripture? (Deut. 29:29)? "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law."

God doesn't put Himself to death. But He uses evil for good. In foreknowing man's hostility against God Almighty, God would use that to provide a salvation for men that whosoever was willing could receive His mercy and grace. I have some advice for you: try to read any one particular verse more closely and not read into it that which is not there or not clearly shown there. Really see if you can do it! Assume nothing.

Quote:

You said, "Your prayers are rebuked in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, for they come from the evil spirit who has got you under a false salvation." You have no authority to rebuke my prayers, and I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit to defend me in this, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). You hear me again, sir. I'm not afraid of you or the Devil that's motivating you, and don't you ever forget it. By God's grace, you will not deter me, you will not intimidate me; by His grace, I'm not going away. If the Lord will, I will continue to defend the truth of Calvinism in this forum.

You call upon a false Christ, because in your faith Jesus died frivolously since whether he died or not, you were to be irresistibly selected according to your proclamation of regeneration. The authority that I have is that of an Apostle to tell you, you are not a child of God by the Holy Spirit, fully proven in Scripture, for there are no verses for Total depravity and there is not irresistible grace--this is Satanic grace, not God's grace at all.

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You have accused me falsely of demonic possession, the very same charge the Pharisees levelled against Christ (Mk. 3:30, Jn. 8:48). Those Pharisees were unregenerate, lost, REPROBATE. Very interesting. How very true are the words of Spurgeon when he said, "I believe the man who is not willing to submit to the electing love and sovereign grace of God, has great reason to question whether he is a Christian at all, for the spirit that kicks against that is the spirit of the devil, and the spirit of the unhumbled, unrenewed heart."

The Holy Spirit reveals you are under possession because you are unable to repent of the heresy of Calvinism. You're like the reprobate of Calvinism, locked in and this is possession by the imposing evil spirits. Not all Pharisees are reprobate for some may have yet given their lives to Christ like Paul did. Spurgeon recognized the unsalvation of himself and Calvinists because he said "the man who is not willing to submit to the electing love and sovereign grace of God, has great reason to question whether he is a Christian at all..." You kick with the devil because you were not willing to submit to God, for submission to God is not pridefully assuming you were regenerated without prior repentance and faith, nor is it by a God who makes you believe without genuine repentance which we all may freely obtain. A gift is never forced on anyone. May you yet one day give your life to Christ. I'd hate to receive a gift from you. I'd be dragged into having to accept it.

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You have attacked me unjustly. You have accused me falsely, repeatedly of unbelief, repeatedly of working for my salvation, repeatedly of demonic possession, of making false accusations, of cowardice, of cultism, of "Satanic grace", of my alleging that I was "regenerated without having to repent and believe in Christ", and of selfishness. You can refuse or can rebuke any blessing or prayer you please, but that won't stop me from giving them by God's grace, as He has commanded. I do have authority to use any Scripture rightly, as I am God's child, despite your false accusations to the contrary. If the Lord will, I will continue to do so. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ in His Name to defend me in these things, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). All these wrongs I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).

God's grace came upon you and you rejected it when you refused to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. That's the bottom line: it is the same theme over and over. Not to say you couldn't this very day give your life to Christ, but it is highly unlikely, for you have already decided what you want. It oozes out from you such immense pride Christians can see it easily it is not of the Holy Spirit but the evil spirit. You preach a false gospel. You are not a child of God and probably never will will be, for like I said, you are possessed and you want to remain under the control of the evil spirit (proclaiming it to be of God, but Jesus says He never knew you). You've made your choice, now you want to try to understand that evil choice. The blessings of an unregenerate are rebuked in the name of God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit. My prayers go out to you, you don't have to remain as you are. You do have a choice, for you are made in God's image as a sovereign free willed being to be under God or under Satan. The problem is choice and coming to the cross as a helpless sinner without pridefully assuming.

Amen.
11-14-2009, 02:24 PM
briancook007

Your logic is faulty. The burden of proof lies upon you to show that Lydia was saved before Acts 16:14, which you haven't done; you are the one who is sidestepping the issue. I never said that everyone in the Old Testament was unsaved because they hadn't seen Jesus; that's a misrepresentation, so again, your logic is faulty. It never says that Lydia believed in God, it says she worshiped Him; that doesn't mean automatically that she was saved, as Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7 show. Despite your attempts to explain it away, this incident does show irresistible grace, for what saith the Scriptures?

Acts 16:14: "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, HEARD us: whose heart the Lord opened, THAT SHE ATTENDED unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Jn. 8:43, 47: "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot HEAR my word. He that is of God HEARETH God's words: ye therefore HEAR them not, because ye are not of God."

Jn. 1:13: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God."

II Cor. 5:17: "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new CREATURE (or, CREATION): old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Again, Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that Jn. 1:13 is in the passive voice in the Greek, which means that the subject is being acted upon and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it.

No, the imperative mood means that the statement is a command. Again, Mk. 1:15 is in the imperative mood, where Christ says, "Repent ye, and believe the gospel." What else did He say (Lk. 13:5)? "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." Mk. 1:15 is not an invitation, it is a command to man to repent.

You still deny total depravity? What saith the Scriptures?

Gen. 6:5: "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY imagination of the thoughts of his heart was ONLY evil continually."

Gen. 8:21: "The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth."

Isa. 1:5-6: "The WHOLE head is sick, and the WHOLE heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is NO soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Jer. 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

Jer. 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

Psa. 58:3: "The wicked are estranged FROM THE WOMB: they go astray AS SOON AS THEY BE BORN, speaking lies."

Eph. 2:1-3: "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

Unregenerate people perform charitable acts, but what saith the Scriptures regarding that (Tit. 1:15-16)?

"Unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK REPROBATE."

No, in Acts 9:1-6 Paul was on his way to persecute God's people, his nature was evil at that point; God changed his nature irresistibly, the only way his evil nature could have been changed, regenerating him, giving him a new nature (II Cor. 5:17), which is why he said, "LORD, what wilt thou have me to do?"

You want me to respond to my point about Ex. 4:12, that the first mention of Pharaoh's heart being hardened was when God said He would harden it? What saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 14:24: "The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand."

Eph. 1:11: "...the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will..."

The Scripture does not say, "As it shall come to pass, so have I thought." It says, "as I have thought, so shall it come to pass." God does not foresee events, He is the foreordinative Author of them.

You say reprobation is unjust? What saith the Scriptures?

Rom. 9:16-22: "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

Dr. A.T. Robertson says that "fitted to destruction" is in the passive voice, again, meaning that the subject is being acted upon and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. Foreordinatively, God "worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Eph. 1:11).

No, the baptism in Col. 2:12-13 refers to regeneration (I Cor. 12:13), for it is written:

"Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses."

Your irritation is showing; I'm reminded of the words of Tacitus when he said: "Abuse, if you slight it, will gradually die away; but if you show yourself irritated you will be thought to have deserved it." Perhaps your irritation shows your own recognition of the heretical error of Arminianism.

No, sir, I was correct when I said that Arminians say that man provides faith and repentance apart from God's grace. You people say that man comes to Christ of his own free will, that God never forces that, that man makes the ultimate decision whether or not he's saved, that, ultimately, he saves himself by being smart enough to make the right decision in and of himself. That is proud, arrogant, and carnal. You Arminians are the ones who are guilty of "grand assumption and self-exaltation." Again, the primary object of your heretical system is to glorify MAN, whereas the object of Calvinism is to glorify GOD, no matter what linguistic legerdemain you may employ to try to explain it away. Your denial of these things shows that not only are you ignorant of Calvinistic teaching, you're also ignorant of Arminian teaching.

No, Calvinism doesn't "glorify evil", it says that man is a foul, wretched, vile creature in and of himself apart from God's grace, that his only hope is in a merciful God Who would have been entirely within His legal rights, because of the Fall, to have damned every single member of the human race to eternal Hell fire; but, in His infinite wisdom, mercy, and grace He chose to save some while passing by others, justly condemning them for their sins. Do you know what reprobation is? God's letting man have his own way. The reprobate sinner has no desire to be saved, for the Scripture saith (Job 15:16): "How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?" He has no desire to take "the water of life" (Rev. 22:17), his thirst is satiated already with his own sin. You Arminians say man takes that water in and of himself, that he believes and repents in and of his own capacity, regardless of your denial of it; but what saith the Scriptures?

Mat. 16:16-17: "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

Jn. 4:10: "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water."

Jn. 6:28-29: "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Phil. 1:6: "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

Eph. 2:8-9: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

The Scriptures declare that God has both a foreordinative will and a preceptive will (Deut. 29:29). Jesus Christ was murdered, a direct violation of the Sixth Commandment, the day He died on the Cross of Calvary, but the Scriptures declare:

Isa. 53:4: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

There is an instance where God used even the Devil himself to accomplish His foreordinative will, when it was a direct violation of His preceptive will:

I Chr. 21:1: "And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel."

II Sam. 24:1: "And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah."

You've accused God falsely of double-talk in this; I really wouldn't want to be in your shoes when you answer for that.

No, the reason why God regenerated me was because Christ died in my place, taking all my punishment on the Cross. God applied the precious Blood of Christ to my heart, giving me a new nature; He forgave me because of the Atonement, not irrespective of it, as you've said erroneously. No, sir, you are not an apostle; those twelve men are with the Lord now, having accomplished their blessed work on this earth. You have no right to accuse me falsely, to judge my heart, to say that I'm an unbeliever. I'm saved, elect, by God's sovereign grace, and I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ, my Savior, my "advocate with the Father" (I Jn. 2:1), to defend me against these satanic, carnal, false charges.

No, the Pharisees who accused Christ falsely of demonic possession, as you've accused me falsely of it, are in Hell now, they were reprobate, because in so doing they committed the unpardonable sin (Mk. 3:28-30, Jn. 8:48). You do not exhibit the spirit of Christ, you show the spirit of the Devil. Spurgeon indeed was correct when he said: "I believe the man who is not willing to submit to the electing love and sovereign grace of God, has great reason to question whether he is a Christian at all, for the spirit that kicks against that is the spirit of the devil, and the spirit of the unhumbled, unrenewed heart."

You have attacked me unjustly. You have accused me falsely, repeatedly of unbelief, repeatedly of idolatry, repeatedly of demonic possession, repeatedly of assuming regeneration before faith and repentance, repeatedly of selfishness, of demonic control, of being a "child of perdition", of being a Satanic instrument, of doing Satan's bidding, of giving a "pretentious gift to Satan", of "Satanic grace", of calling upon a false Christ, of preaching a false gospel, of unwillingness to repent and to believe, of admitting to an unwillingness to repent and to believe, of pride, of "Satanic grace", and of selfishness. You can refuse or can rebuke any blessing or prayer you please, but that won't stop me from giving them by God's grace, as He has commanded, nor will your refusals or your rebukes nullify them, for I respecfully call upon God in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit to protect and to prosper any and all blessings that I have given you in this entire debate. I have authority to use any Scripture rightly, as I am God's child, despite your false accusations to the contrary. If the Lord will, I will continue to do so. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ in His Name to defend me in these things, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). All these wrongs I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).
11-15-2009, 09:39 AM
Churchwork

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Originally Posted by briancook007

Your logic is faulty. The burden of proof lies upon you to show that Lydia was saved before Acts 16:14, which you haven't done; you are the one who is sidestepping the issue. I never said that everyone in the Old Testament was unsaved because they hadn't seen Jesus; that's a misrepresentation, so again, your logic is faulty. It never says that Lydia believed in God, it says she worshiped Him; that doesn't mean automatically that she was saved, as Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7 show. Despite your attempts to explain it away, this incident does show irresistible grace, for what saith the Scriptures?

Acts 16:14: "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, HEARD us: whose heart the Lord opened, THAT SHE ATTENDED unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Jn. 8:43, 47: "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot HEAR my word. He that is of God HEARETH God's words: ye therefore HEAR them not, because ye are not of God."

Jn. 1:13: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God."

II Cor. 5:17: "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new CREATURE (or, CREATION): old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Your logic is faulty. Acts 16.14 says she was already a believer in God: "She was a worshiper of God" then follows, "As she listened to us, the Lord opened her heart, and she accepted what Paul was saying." She accepted what Paul was saying because she already believed in God-no mention of her being an unbeliever. So the burden remains on you. To worship God is to believe in Him, for one who does not worship God doesn't believe in Him to worship Him. You are trying to sidestep the issue, which is, if she hadn't believed in God that wouldn't help your case anyway, because there is nothing in the passage that says she was irresistibly made to believe. You brought this up to try to claim irresistible grace, but you failed. Stop inserting into the text that which is not there! Calvinists do this constantly. This verse doesn't say she had not believed in God, began to listen, the Lord opened her heart, and then she was saved. No! It begins by saying she worshiped God as many did in the OT before Jesus entered into His creation."If you believed in Moses, you would believe in Me, because he wrote about Me. But if you don't believe his writings, how will you believe My words." Prior to Jesus dying the cross a person could be saved except that when they were saved and given new life the Holy Spirit did not indwell the spirit because the veil was not yet rent. What transpired here for Lydia is that as a believer and worshiper of God she was saved, but the Holy Spirit had not yet entered into her spirit, that which you don't have, because you are a Calvinist. Matt. 15.9 and Mark 7.7 are not the worshiping of God but a false God, so these two passages don't help what you are arguing for.

"As she listened to us...she attended [accepted]" was her choice, not irresistibly imposed. She was doing the listening and she was doing the accepting. God provides the grace of opening receptive hearts, but the choice remains hers. The reason you refuse to hear God's word is because you cannot and you cannot because you are unwilling. You are not born of your will by assuming you were regenerated, but God requires you to repent and believe in in Him to be regenerated: "not of...the will of man, but of God." God contrast faith from works of Calvinism: "Are faith and works contrasted as opposites? "By grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5). Faith does not equal assuming regeneration without prior repentance and faith. That will never do, so you are not a new creation of God, for you are still living in your old man stuck in the Old Creation. Calvinism is an age old heresy, immorals and ideas Augustine held in the 4th century of being tyrannical.

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Again, Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that Jn. 1:13 is in the passive voice in the Greek, which means that the subject is being acted upon and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it.

Of course God does the saving. What Arminian says otherwise? Notice that John 1.13 doesn't say anything about someone irresistibly being made to be saved, for man is afforded the choice.

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No, the imperative mood means that the statement is a command. Again, Mk. 1:15 is in the imperative mood, where Christ says, "Repent ye, and believe the gospel." What else did He say (Lk. 13:5)? "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." Mk. 1:15 is not an invitation, it is a command to man to repent.

Why do you disagree with the dictionary definition of imperative mood: "a mood that expresses an intention to influence the listener's behavior"? Of course God is commanding we must "repent and believe the gospel" but a command itself doesn't force anyone to do it. The command of these words "Except ye repent, ye shall likewise perish" are not mutually exclusive of an offer and invitation for salvation, for what God commands, still requires our response. We are not robots, nor does God give His commands in vain such that you couldn't refuse them. You're a false teaching. I have noticed you are always wrong in everything you say. Don't you realize you don't have to argue for God commanding forcing to it to happen because in your theology you are allowed to contradict yourself with your gods contradictory two wills: wanting all to be saved but not really.

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You still deny total depravity? What saith the Scriptures?

Gen. 6:5: "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY imagination of the thoughts of his heart was ONLY evil continually."

Gen. 8:21: "The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth."

Isa. 1:5-6: "The WHOLE head is sick, and the WHOLE heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is NO soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Jer. 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

Jer. 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

Psa. 58:3: "The wicked are estranged FROM THE WOMB: they go astray AS SOON AS THEY BE BORN, speaking lies."

Eph. 2:1-3: "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."

Notice you were unable to prove Total depravity from out of any of these verses. Wickedness, every thought, evil continually, born into sin, evil from youth, the whole of man, deceitfulness, like a leopard with unchanging spots, lying, children of wrath ... all speak of man's willfulness and propensity, not Total inability and necessity. This fact agrees with the fact that "He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone" (Heb. 2.9), which is to provide sufficient grace to all. But your god is unwilling or unable to do this. To provide sufficient grace to all indicates that God has afforded us all choice. "Today I have given you the choice between life and death, between blessings and curses. I call on heaven and earth to witness the choice you make. Oh, that you would choose life, that you and your descendants might live!" (Deut. 30.19) If you were Totally depraved you would have no choice in the matter but must be irresistibly imposed on and others unrighteously subject to preterition. What love is this? If it is evil for man, it's evil for us. You're like an unethical lawyer trying to pull out a legal technicality of the letter, missing the Spirit of the message, thus missed the spiritual intent that expresses man's sin nature. It is so easy to disprove your approach, because a person who is unsaved can help an old lady across the street. We observe this in experience and in the word of God: "I have given you the choice." Man's depravity is not mutually exclusive of being given a choice.

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Unregenerate people perform charitable acts, but what saith the Scriptures regarding that (Tit. 1:15-16)?

"Unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK REPROBATE."

Again you are trying to be legalistic with this which is expressing man's sin nature that is utterly corruptible. It is not saying helping an old lady across the street is something man can't do. Likewise, it is not saying you can't receive what Jesus did for you on the cross. You can yet repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. You don't have to remain as you are a reprobate. Priding yourself on thinking you were irresistibly regenerated forcing you to repent and believe Christians don't consider this true repentance and faith, because it was forced. "Freely ye received, freely give" (Matt. 10.8). There is much common grace in the world by which people do good things, but these things they do does not save them, for they must believe in Jesus to be saved by grace through faith, not of yourselves, lest any man should boast. Assuming regeneration was irresistibly imposed is of your self!

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No, in Acts 9:1-6 Paul was on his way to persecute God's people, his nature was evil at that point; God changed his nature irresistibly, the only way his evil nature could have been changed, regenerating him, giving him a new nature (II Cor. 5:17), which is why he said, "LORD, what wilt thou have me to do?"

Paul was not changed irresistibly, for he could have still resisted. Before Paul could ever ask what he should do, we read... "Who are you, sir?" Saul asked. And the voice replied, "I am Jesus, the one you are persecuting!" (Acts 9.5) In that moment, he responded to God as God knew he would. Never think God's infinite foreknowledge means irresistibly made to do something. His infinite foreknowledge allows for a righteous response by God, even an intervention, but not forcing things like an evil tyrant would. Since God is relational, He relates with us. Paul didn't have to ask the Lord what he was to do, but God knew he was saved at that point, truly believing in Him, and so told Paul what to do.

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You want me to respond to my point about Ex. 4:12, that the first mention of Pharaoh's heart being hardened was when God said He would harden it? What saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 14:24: "The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand."

Eph. 1:11: "...the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will..."

The Scripture does not say, "As it shall come to pass, so have I thought." It says, "as I have thought, so shall it come to pass." God does not foresee events, He is the foreordinative Author of them.

The verse is Ex. 4.21 not 4.12. I don't want you to respond to yourself, I want you to respond to the point I made (which you are still avoiding) that in verse 21 is not the first active use of hardening: "And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go." Even your Calvinist brethren, Piper, admits this is not God hardening his heart first, which is obvious. You are not allowed to assume God hardened his heart first by this verse for that would be mindlessly reading into the text that which is not there. Be honest. Those things that shall come to pass are God's divine plan: this does not require robots. Everything God does is righteous, holy and true: by the counsel of His will does not demand irresistibly imposed tyrannical force. Let it go. It is not of God. Evil people act like that. Not God. You're fashioning God in your own image.

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You say reprobation is unjust? What saith the Scriptures?

Rom. 9:16-22: "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

Dr. A.T. Robertson says that "fitted to destruction" is in the passive voice, again, meaning that the subject is being acted upon and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. Foreordinatively, God "worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" (Eph. 1:11).

Nothing in Rom. 9 says a person is irresistibly regenerated! I believe in reprobation, for obviously many such as yourself are going to Hell. Rather, I reject Calvinism reprobation, because from birth it sends people to Hell without recourse, no grace or mercy or justice whatsoever. What love is this? You may get off on thinking many are going to Hell without the opportunity to be saved, but it is by this very attitude of yours, I know you are not a child of God. God of the Bible simply doesn't teach this! In Romans 9 the one blaming God for showing mercy upon whom He shows mercy is not explaining God is using preterition, for God responds by correcting the man's misunderstanding in his stinkin' thinkin'. The person arguing is saying it is unfair some go to Hell. God says He is the righteous potter. You should not think God is some evil diabolical tyrant bringing people into His creation and making them for Hell. That's not what God is saying at all. Suffice it to say God provides sufficient grace to all to have the right to be saved by grace through faith. When He shows mercy upon whom He shows mercy it is according to His righteous way of doing things and holy nature. You can trust that He is doing it properly!

That God fits for destruction is not without the person's choice in the matter. God's verdict comes down: "fitted for destruction" does not imply or even remotely suggest that person was created and made for Hell anymore than you are irresistibly made to be regenerated. That's not what God is saying at all. Let go of your pride you exalt yourself over others with this nonsense.

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No, the baptism in Col. 2:12-13 refers to regeneration (I Cor. 12:13), for it is written:

"Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses."

Your irritation is showing; I'm reminded of the words of Tacitus when he said: "Abuse, if you slight it, will gradually die away; but if you show yourself irritated you will be thought to have deserved it." Perhaps your irritation shows your own recognition of the heretical error of Arminianism.

Regeneration is initial salvation. When one repents and believes in Christ they are regenerated: initial salvation, the new birth, born-again, receiving eternal life which can never be lost. What baptism provides which follows is after having died on the cross with Christ, one then gets buried in baptism which is experientially dying to the world and rising up out of the world and with Christ. Notice Col. 2.12 says, "you were raised to a new life because you trusted the mighty power of God, who raised Christ from the dead." You weren't raised to new life because you were baptized, but speaking of Christians: "you trusted the might power of God..." Let's say you were in a desert and there was no water. You couldn't get baptized if it was legalized like you legalize baptism like Oneness Pentecostals do so as to miss the point. Therefore, the baptism of the Spirit is with or without water in burial and resurrection with Jesus. Baptism can never provide initial salvation, but it can deepen one's spiritual life after having already been saved.

Before the priest could use his knife the sacrifice had to be placed on the altar. The altar in the Old Testament speaks of the cross in the New Testament. Believers cannot expect their High Priest to wield God’s sharp Sword, His Word which pierces to the separation of soul and spirit, unless first they are willing to come to the cross and accept its death. Lying on the altar always precedes the plunging of the sword. Hence all who desire to experience the parting of soul and spirit must answer the Lord’s call to Calvary and lay themselves unreservedly on the altar, trusting their High Priest to operate with His keen Sword to the dividing asunder of their spirit and soul. For us to lie on the altar is our free-will offering well-pleasing to God; to use the sword to divide is the work of the priest. We should fulfill our part with all faithfulness, and commit the rest to our merciful and faithful High Priest. And at the appropriate time He shall lead us into baptism and a complete spiritual experience.

I find Tacitus' comment applies to you well which is probably why you brought it up, because you are projecting these traits in yourself and are getting frustrated because Christians always reject you.

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No, sir, I was correct when I said that Arminians say that man provides faith and repentance apart from God's grace. You people say that man comes to Christ of his own free will, that God never forces that, that man makes the ultimate decision whether or not he's saved, that, ultimately, he saves himself by being smart enough to make the right decision in and of himself. That is proud, arrogant, and carnal. You Arminians are the ones who are guilty of "grand assumption and self-exaltation." Again, the primary object of your heretical system is to glorify MAN, whereas the object of Calvinism is to glorify GOD, no matter what linguistic legerdemain you may employ to try to explain it away. Your denial of these things shows that not only are you ignorant of Calvinistic teaching, you're also ignorant of Arminian teaching.

I don't know any Arminians who believe what you think about us that we provide faith and repentance or apart from God's grace. Rather we Christians believe that God is the one who provides the gift of repentance and faith and since God wants a relationship with us, He doesn't force these things on us as your god does. He made us in image to be able to obtain these free gifts to come to the cross as helpless sinners and receive the Lord Jesus as Savior. The ultimate decision is God's. He is the one who sets forth the condition for salvation to believe on Him by faith. God has made us all smart enough to make the right decision, for He has supplied us all with sufficient enabling grace to have that choice and present to the High Priest our free will offering. We all have God-consciousness: all made in His image. None of us are Totally depraved! Though fallen we are not Totally unable. Stop believing in Satan's lie.

That being said, notice your contradiction. By your own free will you have assumed you were regenerated without any prior repentance and faith because you said you could not (an assumption), thus erecting your idol of Total depravity that prevents you from having true repentance and faith for a genuine relationship with your Creator. Very sad! It's a cop out and a selfish salvation without you authentically receiving Him as He would have you. The reason why your belief is a doublestandard is because you are employing the very same free will Christians do except that while you blame us for believing in Jesus, you believe in a false Christ. You think yourself smart enough to just assume regeneration into being for yourself. Can anything be more proud and arrogant and carnal? You don't need God. You can save yourself! Calvinists don't glorify God but place themselves in their grandiose proclamations they were regenerated without having had to repent and believe in Jesus. Such self-exaltation you harbor is rejected by God's children-the body of Christ. Your grand assumption is apart form God's saving grace. How libertarian free will of you! And pelagian, denying the original sin, for the original sin doesn't make you Totally depraved.

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No, Calvinism doesn't "glorify evil", it says that man is a foul, wretched, vile creature in and of himself apart from God's grace, that his only hope is in a merciful God Who would have been entirely within His legal rights, because of the Fall, to have damned every single member of the human race to eternal Hell fire; but, in His infinite wisdom, mercy, and grace He chose to save some while passing by others, justly condemning them for their sins. Do you know what reprobation is? God's letting man have his own way. The reprobate sinner has no desire to be saved, for the Scripture saith (Job 15:16): "How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?" He has no desire to take "the water of life" (Rev. 22:17), his thirst is satiated already with his own sin. You Arminians say man takes that water in and of himself, that he believes and repents in and of his own capacity, regardless of your denial of it; but what saith the Scriptures?

Mat. 16:16-17: "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven."

Jn. 4:10: "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water."

Jn. 6:28-29: "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Phil. 1:6: "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

Eph. 2:8-9: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Arminians also say "man is a foul, wretched, vile creature in and of himself apart from God's grace, that his only hope is in a merciful God Who would have been entirely within His legal rights, because of the Fall, to have damned every single member of the human race to eternal Hell fire; but, in His infinite wisdom, mercy, and grace..." But that is not the point before us. The point before us is whether man is Totally depraved or partially depraved? Since man can still help an old lady across the street you can't say people are Totally unable. Where you go wrong is to add on to your sentence "...He chose to save some while passing by others, justly condemning them for their sins." The reason you have to believe this, which is very evil to say the least, is because it follows the mistaken assumption of Total depravity. One error leads to another: one mistake assumption begets another: sin begets sin. There is no basis for Total depravity, nor is there any basis for worshiping a god who from birth sends people to Hell without any right of opportunity salvation. That would be like Hitler taking the Jews from birth and sending them to Hell also without any recourse. This glorifies one of the most evil men who ever lived just as much as your god. Sadly, you have made your choice to worship such evil. All I can do is help you to understand the choice you have already made, how you have gone awry, and possibly by the grace of God may you be convinced and convicted one day to leave this evil tyrant you worship. Just know as long as you are breathing in your body of flesh and blood and still reject Christ, you have not blasphemed the Holy Spirit. You may yet come to Christ one day.

You've got to deal with the doubletalk of your god. In moderate Calvinism, your god openly says he wants all to be saved, but secretly doesn't want all to be saved. This bipolar and makes your god a schizoid god.

Job 15.16 is not saying man is Totally depraved but speaks of man's propensity to sin and willfulness. Revelation 22.17: The Spirit and the bride say, "Come." Let each one who hears them say, "Come." Let the thirsty ones come--anyone who wants to. Let them come and drink the water of life without charge. God is not vain. He does not give these words if man can't receive Him, so your theory is wrong: "He has no desire to take" of the water of life freely. God said the water of life freely may be taken, whosoever may come. And why? Because God has provided sufficient grace to all. This is in stark contrast to your god who doesn't provide sufficient grace to all, but irresistibly imposes the Calvinism salvation on some and passes over billions for not justifiable reason in the mind of your god. If this type of behavior is evil for man and negligent, so it would be for God of the Bible. That's how one can know the god you worship is not God of the Bible.

The reason you accuse Christians (Arminians) of saving ourselves is because you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. This is relying on yourself and is wholly apart from God desire for you.

The verses you gave prove God's grace is sufficient, that He is the provider. They give no basis for believing in irresistibly imposed faith. The condition is set forth: "If thou..." and "that ye believe". God gives you the grace to do these things if you were willing to come to Him with an honest heart. Alas, you are unwilling.

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The Scriptures declare that God has both a foreordinative will and a preceptive will (Deut. 29:29). Jesus Christ was murdered, a direct violation of the Sixth Commandment, the day He died on the Cross of Calvary, but the Scriptures declare:

Isa. 53:4: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

God never contradicts Himself, so where in Deut. 29.29 does God contradict Himself? "There are secret things that belong to the LORD our God, but the revealed things belong to us and our descendants forever, so that we may obey these words of the law." That there are things God keeps secret since He is God and we are men, and we can't even understand everything, how does this suggest God is bipolar with a secret will where He doesn't want all to be saved and another will that contradicts which says He does want all to be saved? Why read into the text that which is not there? How is that being humble? "For God so loved the world...that the world through him might be saved" (John 3.16,17). This is both His secret will before it was known as well as His revealed will once it was known. No contradiction! Get over yourself. Pride is oozing forth like a stream of dead water! May I say it is like you are trying to be God, trying to get into His head make claims about Him that are just not true.

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There is an instance where God used even the Devil himself to accomplish His foreordinative will, when it was a direct violation of His preceptive will:

I Chr. 21:1: "And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel."

II Sam. 24:1: "And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah."

I think you are being purposely vague with these two verses because you have to be. What is His secret will and revealed will in these two verses? And where are they in conflict? Satan conflicts himself, God never does. Since you couldn't precisely and specifically show a contradiction of God that you accuse, then you are worshiping your false god into the text.

You've accused God falsely of double-talk in this; I really wouldn't want to be in your shoes when you answer for that.

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No, the reason why God regenerated me was because Christ died in my place, taking all my punishment on the Cross. God applied the precious Blood of Christ to my heart, giving me a new nature; He forgave me because of the Atonement, not irrespective of it, as you've said erroneously. No, sir, you are not an apostle; those twelve men are with the Lord now, having accomplished their blessed work on this earth. You have no right to accuse me falsely, to judge my heart, to say that I'm an unbeliever. I'm saved, elect, by God's sovereign grace, and I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ, my Savior, my "advocate with the Father" (I Jn. 2:1), to defend me against these satanic, carnal, false charges.

Jesus died on the cross for everyone: "...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe" (1 Tim. 4.10). This doesn't automatically save you, otherwise that would be universalism or like Hitler saving an Aryan race and damning the Jews to the gas chambers. Without Calvinism this could not have been achieved. You really don't need Jesus for Calvinism salvation, because you are selected anyway irresistibly. It's all a charade. Paul said he was an Apostle, but you only count 12 Apostles including Matthias. Why don't you agree with God's word there are not just the 12 Apostles but all the Apostles? He was seen "by the twelve apostles" (1 Cor. 15.5) and "later by all the apostles" (15.7). I don't mind being called by non-Christians I am not an Apostle, because they are not even born-again; they can't understand since they reject God of the Bible for their false God and false Christ. God told me you are not born-again. How can I deny what God has revealed by the Sword of His Spirit, the Word of God? Mormons call God their Father also and claim everyone who is not Mormon is Anti-Mormon. Who is Satanic then? That which is proven by God's word: you are satanic, carnal and full of false charges because you are under the control and possession of the evil spirit. You know not what you do.

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No, the Pharisees who accused Christ falsely of demonic possession, as you've accused me falsely of it, are in Hell now, they were reprobate, because in so doing they committed the unpardonable sin (Mk. 3:28-30, Jn. 8:48). You do not exhibit the spirit of Christ, you show the spirit of the Devil. Spurgeon indeed was correct when he said: "I believe the man who is not willing to submit to the electing love and sovereign grace of God, has great reason to question whether he is a Christian at all, for the spirit that kicks against that is the spirit of the devil, and the spirit of the unhumbled, unrenewed heart."

Yes Pharisees are false accusers and are going to Hell. The Bible says nobody is in Hell yet, not even David a man after God's own heart. So you again, misread the word of God when you said, they "are in Hell now". The unpardonable sin, blaspheming the Holy Spirit, is only accomplished when Jesus is on earth, not now. Study the proof. I have told you the truth you are not a Christian for the reasons given in this thread. It is easy to see. You are unwilling as Spurgeon said "to submit to the electing love and sovereign grace of God..." The Devil is in control of you: you are unwilling to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. What else can God do but send you to Hell when you will be resurrected a 1000 years after Jesus returns in Person. You have the spirit of antichrist, worshiping a false Christ.

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You have attacked me unjustly. You have accused me falsely, repeatedly of unbelief, repeatedly of idolatry, repeatedly of demonic possession, repeatedly of assuming regeneration before faith and repentance, repeatedly of selfishness, of demonic control, of being a "child of perdition", of being a Satanic instrument, of doing Satan's bidding, of giving a "pretentious gift to Satan", of "Satanic grace", of calling upon a false Christ, of preaching a false gospel, of unwillingness to repent and to believe, of admitting to an unwillingness to repent and to believe, of pride, of "Satanic grace", and of selfishness. You can refuse or can rebuke any blessing or prayer you please, but that won't stop me from giving them by God's grace, as He has commanded, nor will your refusals or your rebukes nullify them, for I respecfully call upon God in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit to protect and to prosper any and all blessings that I have given you in this entire debate. I have authority to use any Scripture rightly, as I am God's child, despite your false accusations to the contrary. If the Lord will, I will continue to do so. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ in His Name to defend me in these things, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). All these wrongs I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).

You have "assumed regeneration" before repentance and faith. You admit it, for you admit you think you were Totally depraved that necessitates regeneration before repentance and faith. It was not your choice, but forced; so you work for your salvation since you really don't know if you are saved or not, since it wasn't your choice. Yet God does not irresistibly impose Himself on anyone. You're "unwillingness to repent and believe in Christ" keeps you unsaved. None of your prayers are by God's grace, for how could they be? You still reject the One True God. I have on the full armor of God and protected from false prayers upon me. The Holy Spirit continues to rebuke your worshiping a false Christ as does Christ is me by the Holy Spirit, and I won't deny my Lord and Savior on this point. The decision has come down from on high. So-called blessings from Satan through you are refused and rebuked in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Thank you Jesus! Amen.
11-16-2009, 02:35 PM
briancook007

No, sir, your logic is faulty. Acts 16:14 does NOT say Lydia was a believer, it says she worshiped God. The Greek word translated "worshipped" there is σέβω. Your argument is predicated upon the idea that because Lydia worshiped God, that that automatically means that she was saved. What saith the Scriptures?

Mat. 15:9: "But IN VAIN they do worship (σέβω) me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Mk. 7:7: "Howbeit IN VAIN do they worship (σέβω) me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Your arguments are the only things that are failing, Arminian; Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7 are Christ's quoting Isaiah 29:13, which is not a reference to any false god, but to Jehovah. Your assertion that these two statements by Christ refer to a false god show just how hard-pressed you are to defend your untenable position. Maybe that's why you don't produce the Scriptures to back your heretical position; instead of that, you do your best to distort and to pervert the Scriptures that I've given. It won't work, for it is written, "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." I claim this promise now in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace, in my efforts to defend the truth of His sovereign election, of Calvinism. Your anger also is evident; perhaps it reveals your desperation, for the Word of God has defeated your Arminian heresy all through this debate, whether or not you'll admit it.

The burden does not remain on me, this was Lydia's salvation experience; she was baptized immediately, just as the Philippian jailor was baptized immediately upon his faith (Acts 16:30-33). The passage does show irresistible grace, despite your attempts to sidestep the issue, for what saith the Scriptures?

Acts 16:14: "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, HEARD(ἀκούω) us: whose heart the Lord opened (διανοίγω, "to open thoroughly"), that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Jn. 8:43, 47: "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot HEAR (ἀκούω) my word. He that is of God HEARETH (ἀκούω) God's words: ye therefore HEAR (ἀκούω) them not, because ye are not of God."

Jn. 1:13: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God."

II Cor. 5:17: "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new CREATURE (κτίσις, noun form of κτίζω): old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Col. 3:9-10, 12: "Ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created (κτίζω) him: Put on therefore, as the elect of God..."

Acts 16:14 says that God opened her heart to the effect that she responded to Paul's message, regardless of your attempts to explain it away.

Saving faithisa work, not in the sense of man's performing it to merit salvation, but in the sense of it being an action on his part, for what saith the Scriptures?

Jn. 6:28-29: "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work (ἐργάζομαι) the works (ἔργον) of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work (ἔργον) of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Phil. 1:6: "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work (ἔργον) in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

Jn. 4:10: "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift (δωρεά) of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water."

Eph. 2:8-10: "For by grace are ye saved through FAITH; and THAT not of yourselves: it is the gift (δῶρον) of God: Not of works (ἔργον), lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

You Arminians hold that man contributes to regeneration, supplying faith and repentance apart from God's grace; that's heresy. Again, Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that Jn. 1:13 is in the passive voice, which means that the subject is being acted upon, and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. In regeneration, man is created (II Cor. 5:17), born again (Jn. 3:7); a creation cannot resist being created, no one can resist being born. It is God who performs the miracle of regeneration according to His own sovereign will, for what saith the Scriptures?

Jn. 1:13: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Rom. 9:16, 18: "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

James 1:17-18: "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."

"Studylight.org" defines the Greek imperative mood: "The imperative mood corresponds to the English imperative, and expresses a command [emphasis mine] to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order [emphasis mine] and authority [emphasis mine]of the one commanding [emphasis mine]. Thus, Jesus' phrase, "Repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mk.1:15) is not at all an "invitation," but an absolute command requiring full obedience on the part of all hearers [emphasis mine]." Rev. 22:17c & d are in the imperative mood, which means those statements are commands, not invitations.

You said, "I have noticed you are always wrong in everything you say." Very interesting. The unregenerate Pharisees held the same view of Christ, for what saith the Scripture (Mat. 27:63)? "Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again."

Yes, God has two wills, a foreordinative will and a preceptive will. Jesus Christ was murdered the day He was crucified, a direct violation of the Sixth Commandment, but what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 53:4: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

Regarding salvation and God's two wills, what saith the Scriptures?

Acts 17:30: "God...commandeth all men every where to repent."

Acts 11:18: "Then hath God...granted repentance unto life."

Acts 16:31: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved...."

Acts 13:48: "and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Acts 13:48b (καὶ ἐπίστευσαν ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον) is in the passive voice; again, meaning that the subject is being acted upon, and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. Regarding this, what saith the Scriptures?

Rom. 8:29-30: " For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Eph. 1:4-5, 11: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will."

II Thes. 2:13: "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."

The Arminian assertion that Rom. 8:29 indicates God's foreseeing who would believe and then His predestinating them on that basis is heretical. It's not what He foreknew, it's whom He foreknew. "Foreknew" (προγινώσκω) in that Scripture means "foreloved", carrying the same meaning that γινώσκω carries in Mat. 1:25. You Arminians explain Eph. 1:4 the same way, for it says that God chose us in Christ; your view is heretical. The meaning there is that the only way God ever could have chosen anyone to salvation was with Christ and His redeeming work in view; apart from Him, there is no hope. II Thes. 2:13 doesn't show how the elect are chosen, it shows how we're saved, "throughsanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth".

I have proven total depravity, for what saith the Scriptures?

Gen. 6:5: "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY imagination of the thoughts of his heart was ONLY evil continually."

Gen. 8:21: "The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth."

Isa. 1:5-6: "The WHOLE head is sick, and the WHOLE heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is NO soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Jer. 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

Jer. 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

Psa. 9:17: "The wicked shall be turned into hell...."

Psa. 10:4: "The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts."

"Psa. 58:3: "The wicked are estranged FROM THE WOMB: they go astray AS SOON AS THEY BE BORN, speaking lies."

Eph. 2:1-3: "And you hath he quickened, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were BY NATURE the children of wrath, even as others."

These Scriptures prove total depravity, for it is written (Lk. 15:24), "For this my son was dead...." The Prodigal Son had no communication with his father while he was dead, separated (cf. Isa. 59:2, Jn. 9:31a) from him. The Greek word translated "dead" in Lk. 15:24 is νεκρός, the same word as is found in the following, where it is written:

Eph. 2:1, 5: "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Even when we were dead in sins...".

Col. 2:12-13: "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses."

In Heb. 2:9 (ὅπως χάριτι θεοῦ ὑπὲρ παντὸς γεύσηται θανάτου), "man" or "one" is not in the Greek text; it's a masculine adjective, πᾶς, being used as a noun. "Every man" or "every one" is determined by the context, which shows clearly that that term refers to believers, the elect of God, "they who are sanctified" (vs. 11). Deut. 30:19 indicates God's desire that Israel follow His preceptive will; however, there are instances recorded in the Scriptures where God foreordains sin, brings it to pass for His own glory, as was the case with the Crucifixion. The finite mind cannot understand that fully, for it is written (Isa. 55:9), "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Unregenerate people can help a lady across the street, but, regarding that, what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 64:6: "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags."

Tit. 1:15-16: "Unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK REPROBATE."

The "filthy rags" in Isa. 64:6 are menstrual rags, what we would call today a soiled tampon. Not a pretty picture, is it? That's the best man can do apart from God's grace!

You've accused God of injustice in reprobation; what saith the Scriptures?

Rom. 9:19-22: "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

Again, Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that "fitted to destruction" is in the passive voice, which means that the subject is being acted upon, and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. What saith the Scriptures?

Prov. 16:9: "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps."

Jer. 10:23: "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps."

Isa. 14:24: "The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand."

Eph. 1:11: "...the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will..."

No, Paul was on his way to persecute God's people, he had an evil nature. God moved upon him irresistibly, changing his nature, regenerating him, because He was a chosen vessel to Him (Acts 9:15).

Yes, Ex. 4:21, not Ex. 4:12. Again, John Piper is not the authority; the Scriptures are. And again, in Rom. 9:22 "fitted to destruction" is in the passive voice in the Greek, which means that the subject is being acted upon, and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. Pharaoh was a vessel of wrath, performing the function that God had ordered from eternity. Pharaoh refused to release the Hebrews, but the narrative never once says Pharaoh's heart was hardened apart from it being said that God would harden it. Again, a careful examination of the Hebrew shows that God hardened his heart by leaving it in its natural state, that of a totally depraved, vile, wicked, evil, wretched sinner. That's what every single member of the human race, save Christ, is at the moment of his/her own conception (Psa. 51:5), and God simply left Pharaoh's heart in its natural state.

Don't you dare lecture me about idolatry, Arminian. If anyone is committing idolatry here it is you, sir, presenting God erroneously, saying that He loves every single member of the human race. What saith the Scriptures?

Psa. 5:5: "Thou hatest all workers of iniquity."

Psa. 11:5: "The wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth."

Psa. 53:4-5: "Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God. There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them."

Rom. 9:13: "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

No, sir, you are wrong. The hypothetical person arguing against reprobation in Rom. 9:19-22 is accusing God of injustice because He saves whom He will and passes by others, daring to question His holiness in this, daring to question His justice, as you are doing. You said, "That God fits for destruction is not without the person's choice in the matter." Did you even read what I wrote? Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that "fitted to destruction" is in the passive voice, again, meaning that the subject is being acted upon and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. That this is the case, that Rom. 9:19-22 says this, makes no sense to the carnal mind, which is why you Arminians reject it. One other point. You people never accuse God of injustice for having left the Gentiles out of His salvation plan for centuries, passing them by, having dealt exclusively with Israel, but yet you all say that reprobation is unjust. No, Col. 2:12-13 does not say "you were raised to a new life because you trusted the mighty power of God", as you've asserted. The baptism there refers to regeneration, for it is written:

I Cor. 12:13: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized (βαπτίζω) into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

Col. 2:12-13: "Buried with him in baptism (βάπτισμα), wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses."

No, sir, there's no frustration on my part, and your willingness to divert your own frustration and irritation upon me shows just how desperate you really are. You still don't produce the Scriptures to defend your position, as I've done to defend mine, because you can't; the Word of God reveals your Arminian heresy to be the false doctrine that it is. Your only method of argumentation is to try to distort and to pervert the Scriptures, just like the Devil who's motivating you.

No, sir, you Arminians believe that man makes the ultimate decision, that he provides repentance and faith in and of himself, that if he becomes a believer that he was smart enough to make the right decision apart from God's grace, as you've admitted, regardless of your feeble attempts to explain it away. Arminianism is proud, arrogant, and carnal, for it worships and serves "the creature more than the Creator" (Rom. 1:25), glorifying man's will above God's will.

How many times do I have to say it? Calvinists do not assume regeneration before repentance and faith, we say that man must do both those things this very day, this very moment. We say that the only way man does that is by God's sovereign, irresistible, efficacious grace, which is what the Scriptures say.

No, sir, that is the point before us. You Arminians do not believe in man's depravity, you say that, ultimately, he saves himself by having the smarts to do it. What did you say? "God has made us all smart enough to make the right decision...." That is proud, arrogant, carnal, wicked, and evil. Man has no hope apart from God's grace, he is "dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph. 2:1); His only hope is in a merciful God who chooses to save whom He will, for what saith the Scripture (Acts 2:39)? "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

No, Job 15:16 says, "How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?" Unregenerate man's thirst is satiated already with his own sin, which is why he has no desire to take "the water of life" (Rev. 22:17).

Yes, Jn. 3:16 does say, "For God so loved the world (κόσμος), that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Jesus made this statement to a Jewish rabbi; He was telling him that salvation was for the Gentiles as well as for the Jews, for what saith the Scripture (Rom. 11:12)? "Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world (κόσμος), and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?"

I Chr. 21:1 and II Sam. 24:1 show that Satan did what he did by God's sovereign foreordination, even though it was contrary to His preceptive will. There is another scriptural instance where God foreordained sin (Job. 1:21): "the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away." This shows that the people who attacked Job did so by God's sovereign foreordination, even though their acts were sinful. You've accused God falsely of double-talk in this; I really wouldn't want to be in your shoes when you answer for that.

Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Greek grammarian of modern times, says that the sense of σωτήρ in I Tim. 4:10 is "preserver"; so say Greek scholars J.N. Darby and George Ricker Berry as well.

No, sir, you are not an apostle; those twelve men have accomplished their unique work. You call yourself an apostle? Thatis proud, arrogant, and unscriptural.

No, sir, those Pharisees are in Hell now, ᾅδης exists now (Lk. 16:23, Rev. 20:14).

You hear me again, sir. I've said it before, and I'm saying it again; I'm not afraid of you or the Devil that's motivating you. By God's grace, I'm not going away, I will not be intimidated. If the Lord will, I will continue to defend the truth of Calvinism in this forum, as I now call respectfully upon the Lord Jesus Christ to give me the grace to do it, to His glory and honor, for He is worthy (Rev. 4:11).

<a repeated lengthy signature>
11-17-2009, 09:11 AM
Churchwork

Quote:

Originally Posted by briancook007

No, sir, your logic is faulty. Acts 16:14 does NOT say Lydia was a believer, it says she worshiped God. The Greek word translated "worshipped" there is σέβω. Your argument is predicated upon the idea that because Lydia worshiped God, that that automatically means that she was saved. What saith the Scriptures?

Mat. 15:9: "But IN VAIN they do worship (σέβω) me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Mk. 7:7: "Howbeit IN VAIN do they worship (σέβω) me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Where does the text say she worshiped in vain?

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Your arguments are the only things that are failing, Arminian; Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7 are Christ's quoting Isaiah 29:13, which is not a reference to any false god, but to Jehovah. Your assertion that these two statements by Christ refer to a false god show just how hard-pressed you are to defend your untenable position. Maybe that's why you don't produce the Scriptures to back your heretical position; instead of that, you do your best to distort and to pervert the Scriptures that I've given. It won't work, for it is written, "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." I claim this promise now in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace, in my efforts to defend the truth of His sovereign election, of Calvinism. Your anger also is evident; perhaps it reveals your desperation, for the Word of God has defeated your Arminian heresy all through this debate, whether or not you'll admit it.

Matthew 15.9: "Their worship is a face, for they replace God...with their own man-made teachings." To you this may not be a false God, but to God it is a false God. I don't feel angry, but you seem angry when you said, "..., Arminian". God will never save you Calvin's way, for that is not how God saves. God is loving, full of grace and mercy to provide sufficient grace to all that none should perish. You know not the love of God.

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The burden does not remain on me, this was Lydia's salvation experience; she was baptized immediately, just as the Philippian jailor was baptized immediately upon his faith (Acts 16:30-33). The passage does show irresistible grace, despite your attempts to sidestep the issue, for what saith the Scriptures?

Acts 16:14: "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, HEARD(ἀκούω) us: whose heart the Lord opened (διανοίγω, "to open thoroughly"), that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Jn. 8:43, 47: "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot HEAR (ἀκούω) my word. He that is of God HEARETH (ἀκούω) God's words: ye therefore HEAR (ἀκούω) them not, because ye are not of God."

Jn. 1:13: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God."

II Cor. 5:17: "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new CREATURE (κτίσις, noun form of κτίζω): old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Col. 3:9-10, 12: "Ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created (κτίζω) him: Put on therefore, as the elect of God..."

Acts 16:14 says that God opened her heart to the effect that she responded to Paul's message, regardless of your attempts to explain it away.

Acts 16.14 reads, Lydia "worshiped God". Where does it say she didn't?

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Saving faithisa work, not in the sense of man's performing it to merit salvation, but in the sense of it being an action on his part, for what saith the Scriptures?

Jn. 6:28-29: "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work (ἐργάζομαι) the works (ἔργον) of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work (ἔργον) of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

Phil. 1:6: "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work (ἔργον) in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

Jn. 4:10: "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift (δωρεά) of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water."

Eph. 2:8-10: "For by grace are ye saved through FAITH; and THAT not of yourselves: it is the gift (δῶρον) of God: Not of works (ἔργον), lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

Just as a work can be true it can also be false. It is false to assume regeneration without prior repentance and faith.

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You Arminians hold that man contributes to regeneration, supplying faith and repentance apart from God's grace; that's heresy. Again, Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that Jn. 1:13 is in the passive voice, which means that the subject is being acted upon, and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. In regeneration, man is created (II Cor. 5:17), born again (Jn. 3:7); a creation cannot resist being created, no one can resist being born. It is God who performs the miracle of regeneration according to His own sovereign will, for what saith the Scriptures?

Jn. 1:13: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

Rom. 9:16, 18: "So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

James 1:17-18: "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."

Arminians believe faith and repentance are gifts of God and can be received only part of God's grace. God does the saving, but man is afforded the choice. We are not robots. You are not born of the will of man by assuming regeneration without having had to repent and believe in Jesus Christ.

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"Studylight.org" defines the Greek imperative mood: "The imperative mood corresponds to the English imperative, and expresses a command [emphasis mine] to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order [emphasis mine] and authority [emphasis mine]of the one commanding [emphasis mine]. Thus, Jesus' phrase, "Repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mk.1:15) is not at all an "invitation," but an absolute command requiring full obedience on the part of all hearers [emphasis mine]." Rev. 22:17c & d are in the imperative mood, which means those statements are commands, not invitations.

Certainly requiring full obedience, but such requirement doesn't force it to happen. Thus, like a government demanding taxes, the person can still refuse. So ultimately, it is an invitation, not like sending wedding cards out, but that we do have a choice to respond to it.

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You said, "I have noticed you are always wrong in everything you say." Very interesting. The unregenerate Pharisees held the same view of Christ, for what saith the Scripture (Mat. 27:63)? "Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again."

I still find you to be wrong each and every time. You don't have the Holy Spirit indwelling your spirit.

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Yes, God has two wills, a foreordinative will and a preceptive will. Jesus Christ was murdered the day He was crucified, a direct violation of the Sixth Commandment, but what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 53:4: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

Certainly there are things that God keeps secret but that is no reason to think He has two wills, for He is one Being with one will. So not only does He not have two contradictory wills, He does not even have two wills. God is not schizoid or bipolar like you. The reason you invoke two contradictory wills is it is necessary to support the heresy of Total depravity. If man seeks medical attention for being bipolar why doesn't your god have to?

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Regarding salvation and God's two wills, what saith the Scriptures?

Acts 17:30: "God...commandeth all men every where to repent."

Acts 11:18: "Then hath God...granted repentance unto life."

Acts 16:31: "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved...."

Acts 13:48: "and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed."

Acts 13:48b (καὶ ἐπίστευσαν ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι εἰς ζωὴν αἰώνιον) is in the passive voice; again, meaning that the subject is being acted upon, and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. Regarding this, what saith the Scriptures?

Rom. 8:29-30: " For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified."

Eph. 1:4-5, 11: "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will."

II Thes. 2:13: "But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."

You don't show specifically how in any of these verses God has two contradictory wills, let alone two wills? Acts 17:30: "God...commandeth all men every where to repent"-He provides sufficient grace to all. How twisted that would be to command everyone everywhere to repent when from birth born into sin they could not and were not given enabling grace to do so. That's sadistic. Again, what is evil for man must be evil for God showing your god is evil and not God of the Bible.

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The Arminian assertion that Rom. 8:29 indicates God's foreseeing who would believe and then His predestinating them on that basis is heretical. It's not what He foreknew, it's whom He foreknew. "Foreknew" (προγινώσκω) in that Scripture means "foreloved", carrying the same meaning that γινώσκω carries in Mat. 1:25. You Arminians explain Eph. 1:4 the same way, for it says that God chose us in Christ; your view is heretical. The meaning there is that the only way God ever could have chosen anyone to salvation was with Christ and His redeeming work in view; apart from Him, there is no hope. II Thes. 2:13 doesn't show how the elect are chosen, it shows how we're saved, "throughsanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth".

Foreknow means foreknow. He foreknew all things by His infinite foreknowledge especially His elect, and "whosoever believeth...may take of the water of life freely". When the Bible says free will it really means free will. You employ your free will to refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated which is apart from God.

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I have proven total depravity, for what saith the Scriptures?

Gen. 6:5: "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY imagination of the thoughts of his heart was ONLY evil continually."

Gen. 8:21: "The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth."

Isa. 1:5-6: "The WHOLE head is sick, and the WHOLE heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is NO soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Jer. 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

Jer. 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"

Psa. 9:17: "The wicked shall be turned into hell...."

Psa. 10:4: "The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts."

"Psa. 58:3: "The wicked are estranged FROM THE WOMB: they go astray AS SOON AS THEY BE BORN, speaking lies."

Eph. 2:1-3: "And you hath he quickened, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were BY NATURE the children of wrath, even as others."

How does quoting Scriptures prove Total depravity when you have to insert Total depravity into those verses? Since you can't specifically show any verse that teaches absolutely Total depravity nor reconcile that with the fact God wants none to perish, providing sufficient grace for all, one can easily conclude you are not a child of God but worship an evil tyrant who says to a person stuck in a well, grab the rope, but they can't even reach it. I only have on word for this-sadistic! Never confuse propensity to sin and willfulness with Total inability and necessity, for you can still help an old lady across the street. I know you can, so you can yet one day repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. God doesn't give a gospel of false hope to people, but He gives the gospel because we may all avail of it.

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These Scriptures prove total depravity, for it is written (Lk. 15:24), "For this my son was dead...." The Prodigal Son had no communication with his father while he was dead, separated (cf. Isa. 59:2, Jn. 9:31a) from him. The Greek word translated "dead" in Lk. 15:24 is νεκρός, the same word as is found in the following, where it is written:

Eph. 2:1, 5: "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; Even when we were dead in sins...".

Dead means lost communication not Total inability, for can a person who is physically dead reject Christ? That God does the quickening does not demand that God does not give you the choice. Why read into the text that which is not there?

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Col. 2:12-13: "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses."

In Heb. 2:9 (ὅπως χάριτι θεοῦ ὑπὲρ παντὸς γεύσηται θανάτου), "man" or "one" is not in the Greek text; it's a masculine adjective, πᾶς, being used as a noun. "Every man" or "every one" is determined by the context, which shows clearly that that term refers to believers, the elect of God, "they who are sanctified" (vs. 11). Deut. 30:19 indicates God's desire that Israel follow His preceptive will; however, there are instances recorded in the Scriptures where God foreordains sin, brings it to pass for His own glory, as was the case with the Crucifixion. The finite mind cannot understand that fully, for it is written (Isa. 55:9), "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

"He by the grace of God should taste death for every man" clearly is every man. "Now when it says 'all things,' it means nothing is left out." (Heb. 2.8) Context! "Jesus tasted death for everyone in all the world" (v.9). "God--who made everything" (v.10).

To foreordain sin is not to be its author but to allow it for a time. Satan is the author of sin and evil, not God. You are getting Satan confused with God, because you are not a child of God. God uses evil for good, He is not the source of evil as is the god of Calvinism.

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Unregenerate people can help a lady across the street, but, regarding that, what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 64:6: "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags."

Tit. 1:15-16: "Unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK REPROBATE."

The "filthy rags" in Isa. 64:6 are menstrual rags, what we would call today a soiled tampon. Not a pretty picture, is it? That's the best man can do apart from God's grace!

A sinner's flesh is utterly corruptible. There is no saving it. Its only verdict is death, even the death on the cross with Christ. Never think fallen man means Totally depraved, for God can do better than mere robots who must irresistibly be made to do something like pawns on a chessboard. Let God open your mind from your shallow way of thinking. Stop putting up a wall between you and God.

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You've accused God of injustice in reprobation; what saith the Scriptures?

Rom. 9:19-22: "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction."

I agree with God's decision for the reprobate. I've accused your god of false reprobation since it is evil to send someone to Hell from birth who had no choice in the matter, could do nothing about it and was made that way. A parent who has a child that is mongoloid doesn't throw that child into the trash can like in Calvinism, but spends her life providing loving care and every grace possible so that child could make the right decisions in this life, no matter how handicapped. If that person grows up and and refuses God's salvation only then will they be reprobate, blotted out of the Book of Life.

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Again, Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that "fitted to destruction" is in the passive voice, which means that the subject is being acted upon, and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. What saith the Scriptures?

Prov. 16:9: "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps."

Jer. 10:23: "O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps."

Isa. 14:24: "The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand."

Eph. 1:11: "...the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will..."

No, Paul was on his way to persecute God's people, he had an evil nature. God moved upon him irresistibly, changing his nature, regenerating him, because He was a chosen vessel to Him (Acts 9:15).

Stop worshiping men. Care about context. "What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction" (Rom. 9.22). Who is fitted for destruction? Definitely reprobate are fitted for destruction. But who are they? Those like yourself who refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Very sad. God makes it all but certain!

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Your idol is Total depravity, but you can't find no verses for it.

Yes, Ex. 4:21, not Ex. 4:12. Again, John Piper is not the authority; the Scriptures are. And again, in Rom. 9:22 "fitted to destruction" is in the passive voice in the Greek, which means that the subject is being acted upon, and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. Pharaoh was a vessel of wrath, performing the function that God had ordered from eternity. Pharaoh refused to release the Hebrews, but the narrative never once says Pharaoh's heart was hardened apart from it being said that God would harden it. Again, a careful examination of the Hebrew shows that God hardened his heart by leaving it in its natural state, that of a totally depraved, vile, wicked, evil, wretched sinner. That's what every single member of the human race, save Christ, is at the moment of his/her own conception (Psa. 51:5), and God simply left Pharaoh's heart in its natural state.

The first active instance of the Pharaoh's heart being hardened was his own doing. You're avoiding this point. You're also overlooking the fact that God being the determiner of those fitted for destruction in no way demands they are irresistibly made to reject God. Double predestination is just as evil as preterition. The Pharaoh hardened his own heart and against God's will. God's providential care handles all sinners and all sins. That's not the issue. The issue is the first active instance of the Pharaoh's heart hardened was his own doing and God allowed it. God did not cause it. He is not the author of sin; your god is, obviously. God doesn't pass over the Pharaoh's heart either. He provided him with more than sufficient graced to be saved by faith, but he refused and hardened his own heart first just like you do, and so you can see you are getting harder and harder. Calvinists are notoriously known in Christendom to be hard heads or hotheads.

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Don't you dare lecture me about idolatry, Arminian. If anyone is committing idolatry here it is you, sir, presenting God erroneously, saying that He loves every single member of the human race. What saith the Scriptures?

Psa. 5:5: "Thou hatest all workers of iniquity."

Psa. 11:5: "The wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth."

Psa. 53:4-5: "Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God. There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them."

Rom. 9:13: "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."

You're a Calvinist, you're not born-again. I do not presuppose to be able to lecture a man who doesn't want to be saved God's way. You have made your choice, now you want to understand this choice you have made to go to Hell and worship a false Christ. God loves everyone, not the same special love for the elect who received Him, but His love extends to all persons to provide them sufficient grace to have the opportunity to be saved. There is no denying it, the reality of God's power to be able to do this. Your god has not this power and love.

Do you believe Jesus died for the sins of all? "The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1.29); "we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world" (John 4.42); "we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world" (1 John 4.14); "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world" (1 John 2.21); "He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone" (Heb. 2.9); "Since we believe that Christ died for everyone, we also believe that we [Christians] have all died to the old life we used to live" (2 Cor. 5.14); "...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe" (1 Tim. 4.10); "For God so loved the world...that the world through him might be saved" (John 3.16,17). This is not Total depravity, "Killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you!" (Matt. 23.37a) but "How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!" (v.37b) which is sufficient grace to all.

In order to establish your idol of Total depravity is true you must not only be able to find a verse that says a person can't believe in Christ because they are Totally depraved, but you must also reconcile and round out your theory with the fact Jesus died for the sins of the whole world and does not contradict Himself by secretly saying He wants only some to be saved and outwardly says He wants all to be saved. That will never do. My prayers go out to you that you will never be able to accomplish this so you should give your life to Christ today and stop worshiping the false Christ of Calvinism, for to remain this way it is clear Jesus never knew you.

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No, sir, you are wrong. The hypothetical person arguing against reprobation in Rom. 9:19-22 is accusing God of injustice because He saves whom He will and passes by others, daring to question His holiness in this, daring to question His justice, as you are doing. You said, "That God fits for destruction is not without the person's choice in the matter." Did you even read what I wrote? Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that "fitted to destruction" is in the passive voice, again, meaning that the subject is being acted upon and has nothing to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. That this is the case, that Rom. 9:19-22 says this, makes no sense to the carnal mind, which is why you Arminians reject it. One other point. You people never accuse God of injustice for having left the Gentiles out of His salvation plan for centuries, passing them by, having dealt exclusively with Israel, but yet you all say that reprobation is unjust. No, Col. 2:12-13 does not say "you were raised to a new life because you trusted the mighty power of God", as you've asserted. The baptism there refers to regeneration, for it is written:

I Cor. 12:13: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized (βαπτίζω) into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

Col. 2:12-13: "Buried with him in baptism (βάπτισμα), wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses."

There is nothing to suggest whom God saves is by irresistibly imposed upon in Romans 9. You can't read into the text that which is not there if you want to be intellectually honest with yourself. It is the carnal mind that must assume into the text. Try to understand the difference between common grace and special grace. Israel received special grace, for God must bring in a nation to begin to present the law and usher in the Messiah-why not the nation that was enslaved for 430 years! They might have a heart to listen to God's pleadings. Job was not a Jew, before the time of Israel, so grace was upon the Gentiles, it was sufficient grace. Christians, OSAS Arminians, don't say reprobation is unjust, but the twisted version of reprobation of Calvinists is unjust, for you make God out to be Hitler sending the Jews from birth to the gas chambers without any recourse or opportunity for salvation? What love is this? You think of yourself proudly like the Aryan race irresistibly selected, but you are evil to the last.

Dipping a person in water never regenerates a person. It is a symbolic act after one is already regenerated. It should be performed when you have the experience of baptism of the Spirit. Don't get baptized till it is genuine and you are ready. Don't be fake like John Calvin was who was baptized as a child and thinks before he even had the choice he was made saved. Credo- or believers Baptism is the only true baptism.

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No, sir, there's no frustration on my part, and your willingness to divert your own frustration and irritation upon me shows just how desperate you really are. You still don't produce the Scriptures to defend your position, as I've done to defend mine, because you can't; the Word of God reveals your Arminian heresy to be the false doctrine that it is. Your only method of argumentation is to try to distort and to pervert the Scriptures, just like the Devil who's motivating you.

None of the Scriptures you presented agree with you as we have seen. "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Rom. 5.18). "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2.4). All men can be saved "whosoever should believeth" (John 3.16) "to the knowledge of truth" and "unto justification of life." This is a parallelism. Same "all men."

You're unwilling to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated: that's all one needs to know about you to know you are a child of perdition.

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No, sir, you Arminians believe that man makes the ultimate decision, that he provides repentance and faith in and of himself, that if he becomes a believer that he was smart enough to make the right decision apart from God's grace, as you've admitted, regardless of your feeble attempts to explain it away. Arminianism is proud, arrogant, and carnal, for it worships and serves "the creature more than the Creator" (Rom. 1:25), glorifying man's will above God's will.

How many times do I have to say it? Calvinists do not assume regeneration before repentance and faith, we say that man must do both those things this very day, this very moment. We say that the only way man does that is by God's sovereign, irresistible, efficacious grace, which is what the Scriptures say.

Arminians, as already discussed, believe God provides the gifts of repentance and faith which we may freely obtain to be regenerated. God is the ultimate arbiter, but never does He violate His own righteousness and holiness to not provide sufficient grace to all. This is the God you despise and why you are not a Christian. God made you with God-consciousness, a free willed sovereign being, to have the choice before you to either remain under Satan and in Calvinism or to truly come to the cross under the wooing of the Holy Spirit as a helpless sinner to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior. You think yourself smart enough to merely assume regeneration without prior repentance and faith, which is not genuine, but that is really dumb and disingenuous. Calvinists worship the creature more than the created because the creature of Calvinism self-exalts himself he can assume regeneration for himself into being and prides himself over billions whom he thinks God made for Hell irresistibly. Nothing could be more ludicrous! Nobody is more exemplified by this than is Hitler in his treatment of the Jews and the Aryan race.

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No, sir, that is the point before us. You Arminians do not believe in man's depravity, you say that, ultimately, he saves himself by having the smarts to do it. What did you say? "God has made us all smart enough to make the right decision...." That is proud, arrogant, carnal, wicked, and evil. Man has no hope apart from God's grace, he is "dead in trespasses and sins" (Eph. 2:1); His only hope is in a merciful God who chooses to save whom He will, for what saith the Scripture (Acts 2:39)? "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call."

We don't think we are as smart as you in your thinking you can assume regeneration without having had to prior repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. We believe depravity is depravity, not Total depravity (inability). The idol you erect for yourself is so you don't have repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. That's the bottom line. If you assume God hasn't given you the grace to be able to do something, then you won't do it and use as an excuse this idol from doing so. The key difference between your god and God of the Bible is your god is unwilling to provide sufficient grace to all to have the he choice. Either your god is unwilling because of his evil nature or unable because of his impotence. Either way he is a false god and you are a false Christian. That God saves whom He will does not suggest insufficiency of grace. God is infinitely able to provide salvation to the max, but never does He force Himself on anyone. That is evil! Your conscience is seared to realize this.

Whoever God calls are saved, but before God calls He must draw, though sadly not all who are drawn are called because men, such as Calvinist, "draw back unto perdition" (Heb. 10.39). You may come so close to God but, "It would be better if they had never known the right way to live than to know it and then reject the holy commandments that were given to them" (2 Pet. 2.21).

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No, Job 15:16 says, "How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?" Unregenerate man's thirst is satiated already with his own sin, which is why he has no desire to take "the water of life" (Rev. 22:17).

Yes, Jn. 3:16 does say, "For God so loved the world (κόσμος), that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." Jesus made this statement to a Jewish rabbi; He was telling him that salvation was for the Gentiles as well as for the Jews, for what saith the Scripture (Rom. 11:12)? "Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world (κόσμος), and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fullness?"

I Chr. 21:1 and II Sam. 24:1 show that Satan did what he did by God's sovereign foreordination, even though it was contrary to His preceptive will. There is another scriptural instance where God foreordained sin (Job. 1:21): "the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away." This shows that the people who attacked Job did so by God's sovereign foreordination, even though their acts were sinful. You've accused God falsely of double-talk in this; I really wouldn't want to be in your shoes when you answer for that.

God says a man may take of the water of life freely. You say he cannot. I will go with God. You can go with self. Does God offer us salvation when He says "come unto me" (Matt. 11.28) because we have free-will: "whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (Rev. 22.17)? "He is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him" (Heb. 7.25).

You never ask how God gives and how He takes away? How does God foreordain? Your answer is always selfishly narrow. You always assume it is by robots, overlooking the fact that God works evil for good. He does not cause the evil, but the proper way to think about it is, He accounts for all the evil and responds accordingly, allowing it for a time and deals with it righteously and accordingly. My God doesn't need to be a robot maker and besides, He wants a relationship with free willed beings, not robots. Let it go of self, so that you may come to Christ and receive Him as your Lord and Savior.

Jesus is pleading with you and "whosoever believeth" yet you are unwilling. What else can God do then but cut off His mercy to you and harden your heart?

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Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Greek grammarian of modern times, says that the sense of σωτήρ in I Tim. 4:10 is "preserver"; so say Greek scholars J.N. Darby and George Ricker Berry as well.

There is a difference between working in one's new faith and working for it because you really don't know if you are saved or not, because it was never your choice. Arminians gave our lives to Christ knowing we couldn't keep ourselves saved, placing our trust in God who keeps: "preservation of the saints". Whereas Calvinists work for their salvation (persevere) because they really don't know if they are born-again or not, not really.

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No, sir, you are not an apostle; those twelve men have accomplished their unique work. You call yourself an apostle? Thatis proud, arrogant, and unscriptural.

You totally avoided the point about the Apostles are for today, repetitively avoiding the Scripture given to support this. You are not a child of God so I don't mind you calling me not an Apostle. I would expect it. For if you won't accept the Apostles and the Prophets, what makes you think you will accept Jesus?

Paul said he was an Apostle, but you only count 12 Apostles including Matthias. Why don't you agree with God's word there are not just the 12 Apostles but all the Apostles? He was seen "by the twelve apostles" (1 Cor. 15.5) and "later by all the apostles" (15.7).

"He is the one who gave these gifts to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers." (Eph. 4.11). Let go of your contradiction accusing Paul of not being an Apostle: "I am the least of all the apostles.... And we apostles" (1 Cor. 15.9,15). Janias, a woman, was also an Apostle, but not one of the original 12 Apostles, just as I am Apostle for my region of churches.

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No, sir, those Pharisees are in Hell now, ᾅδης exists now (Lk. 16:23, Rev. 20:14).

"And in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus in his bosom" (Luke 16.23). Hades (timeless unawares) is not Hell: "And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire [Hell]" (Rev. 20.14). You don't cast Hell into Hell. That makes no sense.

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You hear me again, sir. I've said it before, and I'm saying it again; I'm not afraid of you or the Devil that's motivating you. By God's grace, I'm not going away, I will not be intimidated. If the Lord will, I will continue to defend the truth of Calvinism in this forum, as I now call respectfully upon the Lord Jesus Christ to give me the grace to do it, to His glory and honor, for He is worthy (Rev. 4:11).

You're not a child of God, you're a Calvinist, who refuses to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. You want a selfish salvation, to stack the deck, but God doesn't give it to you and I wouldn't want to be saved your way. If I believed what you did, I demand that I go to Hell deservingly. Thus treating others as I would like to be treated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJG9lM9GDHg

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You have attacked me unjustly. You have accused me falsely, repeatedly of unbelief, repeatedly of assuming regeneration without prior repentance and faith, repeatedly of pride, of demonic control, of demonic possession, of having a false teaching, of being satanic, of being under satanic control, of "believing in Satan's lie", of believing in a false Christ, of calling upon a false Christ, of preaching a false gospel, of being unable to hear the Word of God, of being unwilling to hear the Word of God, of unwillingness to repent and to believe, of admitting to an unwillingness to repent and to believe, and of not being regenerated. You can refuse or can rebuke any blessing or prayer you please, but that won't stop me from giving them by God's grace, as He has commanded, nor will your refusals or your rebukes nullify them, for I respecfully call upon God in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit to protect and to prosper any and all blessings that I have given you in this entire debate. I have authority to use any Scripture rightly, as I am God's child, despite your false accusations to the contrary. If the Lord will, I will continue to do so. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ, my Savior, my "advocate with the Father" (I Jn. 2:1), to defend me against these satanic, carnal, false charges. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ in His Name to defend me in all these things, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). All these wrongs I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).

My prayer is one day you repent (have a change of mind: stop thinking you were irresistibly regenerated without having had to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated) and believe in Christ to be saved. That is my prayer for you.
11-17-2009, 06:55 PM
briancook007

The text says that Lydia was baptized immediately, which means that Acts 16:14 was her salvation experience, just as the Philippian jailor was baptized immediately upon his salvation experience (Acts 16:30-33); you may try to escape this fact, but that doesn't change its validity.

No, Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7 are Christ's quoting Isa. 29:13, where the Scripture saith:

"Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men."

Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7 are references to worshiping Jehovah in vain, not to the worshiping of any false god in vain; your assertion is ridiculous.

You're trying to avoid the point, you're obfuscating the issue. Your argument is predicated upon the idea that Lydia was saved before Acts 16:14 because she worshiped (σέβω) God, that that means automatically, that that proves, that she was saved. The same Greek word, σέβω, is used in both Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7, which say worship toward Jehovah can be in vain, which was the case with Lydia before Acts 16:14; she wasn't saved until then, for what saith the Scriptures?

Acts 16:14: "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, HEARD (ἀκούω) us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended (προσέχω) unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Jn. 8:43, 47: "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot HEAR (ἀκούω) my word. He that is of God HEARETH (ἀκούω) God's words: ye therefore HEAR (ἀκούω) them not, because ye are not of God."

Jn. 1:13: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God."

II Cor. 5:17: "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new CREATURE (κτίσις, noun form of κτίζω): old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Col. 3:9-10, 12: "Ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that CREATED (κτίζω) him: Put on therefore, as the elect of God..."

How many times do I have to say it, Arminian? Calvinists do not assume regeneration before faith and repentance, we say that man must do those things this very day. We say that the ONLY way man does those two things is because God allows them to him, for what saith the Scriptures?

Jn. 6:28-29: "Then said they unto him, What shall WE DO, that WE MIGHT WORK (ἐργάζομαι) the WORKS (ἔργον) of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the WORK (ἔργον) of God, THAT YE BELIEVE on him whom he hath sent."

Phil. 1:6: "Being confident of this very thing, that HE which HATH BEGUN a good WORK (ἔργον) in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

Jn. 4:10: "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the GIFT (δωρεά) OF GOD, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; THOU WOULDEST HAVE ASKED OF HIM, and he would have given thee living water."

Eph. 2:8-10: "For by grace are ye saved through FAITH; and THAT not of yourselves: it is the GIFT (δῶρον) OF GOD: Not of WORKS (ἔργον), lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, CREATED (κτίζω) in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God HATH BEFORE ORDAINED that we should walk in them."

You Arminians DO teach that man provides faith and repentance apart from God's grace, whether or not you'll admit it. You people preach that man ultimately saves himself because he was smart enough to make the right decision. That is unscriptural, proud, and arrogant. Again, Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that Jn. 1:13 is in the PASSIVE VOICE, which means that the subject is being ACTED UPON, and has NOTHING to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. In regeneration, man is CREATED (II Cor. 5:17), BORN AGAIN (Jn. 3:7); a creation cannot resist being created, no one can resist being born. It is God who performs the miracle of regeneration according to His own sovereign will, for what saith the Scriptures?

Jn. 1:13: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God."

Rom. 9:16, 18: "So then IT IS NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH, NOR OF HIM THAT RUNNETH, BUT OF GOD that sheweth mercy. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

James 1:17-18: "EVERY good gift and EVERY perfect gift is FROM ABOVE, and cometh down from the Father of lights, WITH WHOM IS NO VARIABLENESS, NEITHER SHADOW OF TURNING. OF HIS OWN WILL begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."

Again, "studylight.org" defines the Greek imperative mood: "The imperative mood corresponds to the English imperative, and expresses a command [emphasis mine] to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order [emphasis mine] and authority [emphasis mine] of the one commanding [emphasis mine]. Thus, Jesus' phrase, "Repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mk.1:15) is not at all an "invitation," but an absolute command requiring full obedience on the part of all hearers [emphasis mine]." You are NOT a Greek scholar, you are NOT qualified to give a Greek grammatical opinion, which means your attempt to explain this grammatical RULE away is of no effect. Rev. 22:17c & d are in the imperative mood, which means those statements are COMMANDS, NOT INVITATIONS. You mentioned taxes; go ahead and refuse to pay your taxes and then see what the government does.

You said, "I still find you to be wrong each and every time." Again, very interesting. The UNREGENERATE Pharisees held the same view of Christ, for what saith the Scripture (Mat. 27:63)? "Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again."

Yes, God has two wills, a foreordinative will and a preceptive will. Jesus Christ WAS MURDERED the day He was crucified, a DIRECT violation of the Sixth Commandment, but what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 53:4: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, SMITTEN OF GOD, and afflicted."

Acts 2:23: "Him, BEING DELIVERED BY THE DETERMINATE COUNSEL AND FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD, ye have taken, and by WICKED hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For TO DO WHATSOEVER THY HAND AND THY COUNSEL DETERMINED BEFORE TO BE DONE."

You've accused me of being "schizoid or bipolar". Very interesting. UNREGENERATE peopleheld the same view of Christ, for the Scripture saith (Jn. 10:20), "And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is MAD; why hear ye him?"

You write against God's two wills because you can't understand it. What saith the Scripture (Isa. 55:9)? "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

No, the Scriptures do NOT say that man has free will; he has free agency, he is free to do whatever he pleases, but his will is totally enslaved to his own evil nature, for what saith the Scriptures?

Gen. 6:5: "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY imagination of the thoughts of his heart was ONLY evil continually."

Gen. 8:21: "The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth."

Isa. 1:5-6: "The WHOLE head is sick, and the WHOLE heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is NO soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Jer. 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

Jer. 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately WICKED: who can know it?"

Psa. 9:17: "The WICKED shall be turned into HELL...."

Psa. 10:4: "The WICKED, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in ALL HIS THOUGHTS."

"Psa. 58:3: "The wicked are estranged FROM THE WOMB: they go astray AS SOON AS THEY BE BORN, speaking lies."

Eph. 2:1-3: "And you hath he quickened, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were BY NATURE the children of wrath, even as others."

Yes, again, unregenerate people can help a lady across the street, but, regarding that, what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 64:6: "But we are ALL as an UNCLEAN THING, and ALL our righteousnesses are as FILTHY RAGS."

Tit. 1:15-16: "Unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK REPROBATE."

Again, the "filthy rags" in Isa. 64:6 are MENSTRUAL RAGS, what we would call today a SOILED TAMPON. Not a pretty picture, is it? That's the BEST man can do apart from God's grace!

No, spiritual death means TOTAL SEPARATION from God, NO SPIRITUAL COMMUNICATION, for what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 59:2: "But your iniquities have SEPARATED between you and your God, and your sins HAVE HID HIS FACE FROM YOU, that he WILL NOT HEAR."

Jn. 9:31: "Now we know that GOD HEARETH NOT SINNERS."

No, again, in Heb. 2:9 (ὅπως χάριτι θεοῦ ὑπὲρ παντὸς γεύσηται θανάτου), "man" or "one" is NOT IN THE GREEK TEXT; it's a masculine adjective, πᾶς, being used as a noun. "Every man" or "every one" is determined by the context, which shows clearly that that term refers to believers, the elect of God, for what saith the Scriptures (Heb. 2:9-17)?

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many SONS unto glory, to make the captain of THEIR salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and THEY WHO ARE SANCTIFIED are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them BRETHREN, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my BRETHREN, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the CHILDREN which God hath given me. Forasmuch then as the CHILDREN are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his BRETHREN, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."

"All things" in Heb. 2:8 refers to the creation; what saith the Scripture (Rom. 8:21)? "Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the CHILDREN OF GOD." "Every man" is a Jewish group designation, as Jn. 2:10 shows clearly.

You say God doesn't foreordain sin. What saith the Scriptures?

Gen. 50:20: "But as for you, ye thought EVIL against me; but God meant it unto good, TO BRING IT TO PASS, as it is this day, to save much people alive."

Ex. 4:21: "And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I WILL HARDEN HIS HEART, that he shall not let the people go."

Job 1:21: "The LORD gave, and THE LORD HATH TAKEN AWAY."

I Chr. 21:1: "And SATAN stood up against Israel, and PROVOKED DAVID to number Israel."

II Sam. 24:1: "And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and HE MOVED DAVID against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah."

Man's HEART isn't totally depraved? What saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 1:5-6: "The whole head is sick, and the WHOLE HEART faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is NO soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Jer. 17:9: "The HEART is deceitful above ALL THINGS, and desperately WICKED: who can know it?"

No, reprobation is God's leaving some in their own sins, they having been guilty before Him from the moment of conception, JUSTLY condemning them for His own glory in His infinite wisdom. You've accused God of injustice in reprobation; what saith the Scriptures (Rom. 9:19-22)?

"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O MAN, WHO ART THOU THAT REPLIEST AGAINST GOD? SHALL THE THING FORMED SAY TO HIM THAT FORMED IT, WHY HAST THOU MADE ME THUS? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, WILLING TO SHEW HIS WRATH, AND TO MAKE HIS POWER KNOWN, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath FITTED TO DESTRUCTION."

Your desperation is showing, having accused me of worshiping men, because you CANNOT REFUTE what I wrote, that Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that "fitted to destruction" is in the PASSIVE VOICE, which means that the subject is being ACTED UPON, and has NOTHING to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. What saith the Scripture?

Dan. 4:35: "And ALL the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as NOTHING: and HE DOETH ACCORDING TO HIS WILL in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and NONE CAN STAY HIS HAND, or say unto him, What doest thou?"

No, Pharaoh's hardened heart was God's foreordinative plan; what saith the Scriptures?

Ex. 3:19: "And I AM SURE that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand."

Ex. 4:21: "And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I WILL HARDEN HIS HEART, that he shall not let the people go."

Ex. 9:17: "And in very deed FOR THIS CAUSE have I raised thee up, for TO SHEW IN THEE MY POWER; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth."

Rom. 9:22: "What if God, WILLING TO SHEW HIS WRATH, AND TO MAKE HIS POWER KNOWN, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath FITTED TO DESTRUCTION."

Again, a careful examination of the Hebrew shows that God hardened Pharaoh's heart by LEAVING IT IN ITS NATURAL STATE, that of a totally depraved, wicked sinner. What saith the Scriptures?

Ex. 7:14: "And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is HARDENED (Heb. "kabed") he refuseth to let the people go."

Ex. 17:12: "But Moses' hands were HEAVY (Heb. "kabed")."

Ex. 18:18: "Thou wilt surely wear away, both thou, and this people that is with thee: for this thing is too HEAVY (Heb. "kabed") for thee."

Num. 11:14: "I am not able to bear all this people alone, because it is too HEAVY (Heb. "kabed") for me."

I Kgs. 12:4: "Thy father made our yoke grievous: now therefore make thou the grievous service of thy father, and his HEAVY (Heb. "kabed") yoke which he put upon us, lighter, and we will serve thee."

Psa. 38:4: "For mine INIQUITIES are gone over mine head: as an HEAVY (Heb. "kabed") burden they are too heavy for me."

Isa. 1:4: "Ah sinful nation, a people LADEN (Heb. "kabed") WITH INIQUITY..."

Your ignorance of Calvinistic teaching shows once again. Reprobation is divided into two components: preterition and condemnation. Preterition is unconditional, whereas condemnation is conditional.

You say God loves everyone? What saith the Scriptures?

Psa. 5:5: "Thou HATEST all workers of iniquity."

Psa. 11:5: "The wicked and him that loveth violence his soul HATETH."

Psa. 53:4-5: "Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God. There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath DESPISED them."

Rom. 9:13: "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I HATED."

No, Jesus died for the elect only, securing our salvation at Calvary. Yes, Jn. 1:29, Jn. 4:42, I Jn. 4:14, and Jn. 3:16-17 all use the term "world" (κόσμος); what saith the Scriptures?

Jn. 12:19-20: "The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the WORLD (κόσμος) is gone after him. And there were certain GREEKS among them that came up to worship at the feast."

Rom. 11:12: "Now if the fall of them be the riches of the WORLD (κόσμος), and the diminishing of them the riches of the GENTILES."

II Cor. 5:14-17 is determined by context, which shows clearly that "all" refers to God's elect; what saith the Scriptures?

"For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for ALL, then were ALL dead: And that he died for ALL, that THEY WHICH LIVE should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for THEM, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know WE no man after the flesh: yea, though WE have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know WE him no more. Therefore if any man be IN CHRIST, he is a NEW CREATURE: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Regarding I Jn. 2:2, what saith the Scriptures?

Gal. 2:9: "And when James, Cephas, and JOHN, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they UNTO THE CIRCUMCISION."

I Jn. 2:2: "And he is the propitiation for OUR sins: and NOT FOR OURS ONLY, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD (κόσμος)."

Jn. 11:51b-52: "Being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for THAT NATION (ἔθνος); And NOT FOR THAT NATION (ἔθνος) ONLY, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad."

Rom. 1:5, 8: "By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among ALL NATIONS (ἔθνος), for his name: First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the WHOLE WORLD (κόσμος)."

Again, Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Greek grammarian of modern times, says that the sense of σωτήρ in I Tim. 4:10 is "preserver"; so say Greek scholars W.E. Vine, J.N. Darby, and George Ricker Berry as well.

Regarding Mat. 23:37, was Christ speaking as the sovereign God of Heaven and Earth, or was He speaking as a human being, as He did in Jn. 5:30, where the Scripture saith, "I can of mine own self do nothing." What did He tell Jeremiah as God (Jer. 23:37)? "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?" Furthermore regarding this, what saith the Scriptures?

Mat. 23:37: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!"

Ex. 10:27: "But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and HE WOULD NOT let them go."

You're avoiding the point. From the time God called Abram out of Ur of the Chaldees until Acts chapter 10, the Gentiles were LEFT OUT of God's salvation plan, He having passed them by, dealing EXCLUSIVELY with Israel electively FOR CENTURIES. You Arminians never accuse God of injustice for that, yet you all have the audacity to suggest God is unjust in reprobation, which very well may be blasphemy, as you all are accusing Jehovah of injustice.

Where did I say that water baptism wasn't for believers only? Of course it is.

The only thing we've seen about the Scriptures I've presented is your HERETICAL efforts to distort, to pervert, and to deny them.

In Rom. 5:15 Paul changes the object of his discussion to BELIEVERS, for what saith the Scriptures?

I Cor. 15:22: "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be MADE ALIVE."

Rom. 5:15-19: "But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto MANY. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more THEY WHICH RECEIVE ABUNDANCE OF GRACE AND OF THE GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be MADE RIGHTEOUS."

What does "all men" mean in Rom. 5:18 and I Tim. 2:4? What does "all" mean in I Tim. 2:6? What saith the Scriptures?

Acts 9:15: "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before THE GENTILES, and KINGS, and THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL."

Acts 22:15: "For thou shalt be his witness unto ALL MEN of what thou hast seen and heard."

Rom. 2:9-11: "Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of THE GENTILE; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to THE GENTILE: For there is NO RESPECT OF PERSONS with God."

Rom. 10:12: "For there is no difference between the Jew and the GREEK: for the same Lord over ALL is rich unto all that call upon him."

I Tim. 2:1-7: "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL MEN; For KINGS, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, TO BE TESTIFIED IN DUE TIME. WHEREUNTO I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of THE GENTILES in faith and verity."

No, when God draws someone to Christ, He draws him IRRESISTIBLY; there is NOTHING in man's nature that desires God. What saith the Scriptures?

Job 15:16: "How much more ABOMINABLE and FILTHY is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?"

Isa. 1:5-6: "The WHOLE head is sick, and the WHOLE heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is NO soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Isa. 64:6: "But we are ALL as an UNCLEAN THING, and ALL our righteousnesses are as FILTHY RAGS."

Rom. 3:11: "There is none that understandeth, there is NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD."

Jn. 6:44: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me DRAW (ἕλκω) him."

Jn. 18:10: "Then Simon Peter having a sword DREW (ἕλκω) it...."

Jn. 21:6: "They cast therefore, and now they were not able TO DRAW (ἕλκω) it for the multitude of fishes."

Acts 21:30: "And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and DREW (ἕλκω) him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut."

No, I say that man is able to do exactly what he wants to do, that he can take of the "water of life" whenever he has a desire for that, but he'll never have a desire for that unless God allows that to him. What saith the Scriptures?

Mat. 16:16-17: "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for FLESH AND BLOOD HATH NOT REVEALED IT UNTO THEE, BUT MY FATHER which is in heaven."

Jn. 3:27: "A man can receive NOTHING, except it be GIVEN (δίδωμι) him from heaven."

Jn. 6:65: "NO MAN can come unto me, except it were GIVEN (δίδωμι) unto him of my Father."

Acts 11:18: "Then HATH GOD...GRANTED (δίδωμι) REPENTANCE unto life."

Acts 13:48: "And AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED to eternal life believed."

II Tim. 2:25: "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if GOD...WILL GIVE (δίδωμι)...REPENTANCE to the acknowledging of the truth."

Mat. 11:28 is in the IMPERATIVE MOOD in the Greek; "come unto me" is a COMMAND, NOT AN INVITATION. Again, Rev. 22:17c & d are ALSO in the imperative mood, which means they are COMMANDS, NOT INVITATIONS.

It's not for you or me or anybody else to understand how God foreordains sin for His own glory; if He says He did it, and He DID say it, He did it!

No, sir, you are NOT an apostle. That is proud, arrogant, and unscriptural. There were twelve legitimate apostles; those dear men have accomplished their work on this earth. I Cor. 15:7 says that after James saw Jesus He was then seen by "all the apostles"; it means simply that He appeared to the twelve apostles at the same time after James saw Him. And no, Janias was NOT an apostle. Have you never read I Tim. 2:12?

No, ᾅδης is HELL, just as γέεννα is Hell. Only γέεννα is designated as the Lake of Fire (Rev. 20:14-15), but they are both places of righteous torment for the reprobate.

You said, "If I believed what you did, I demand that I go to Hell deservingly." Be careful what you wish for, Arminian; God may give it to you.

<Removed impersonal, repeated, copy and pasted large block of text>
11-18-2009, 01:54 PM
Churchwork

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Originally Posted by briancook007

The text says that Lydia was baptized immediately, which means that Acts 16:14 was her salvation experience, just as the Philippian jailor was baptized immediately upon his salvation experience (Acts 16:30-33); you may try to escape this fact, but that doesn't change its validity.

Born-again with the indwelling Holy Spirit is not the same thing as believing in God and being saved in OT times. The latter did not have the indwelling.

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No, Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7 are Christ's quoting Isa. 29:13, where the Scripture saith:

"Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men."

Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7 are references to worshiping Jehovah in vain, not to the worshiping of any false god in vain; your assertion is ridiculous.

When a person worships God falsely they are effectively worshiping a false god.

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You're trying to avoid the point, you're obfuscating the issue. Your argument is predicated upon the idea that Lydia was saved before Acts 16:14 because she worshiped (σέβω) God, that that means automatically, that that proves, that she was saved. The same Greek word, σέβω, is used in both Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7, which say worship toward Jehovah can be in vain, which was the case with Lydia before Acts 16:14; she wasn't saved until then, for what saith the Scriptures?

Paul speaks very positively of her worshiping God before her being born-again.

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Acts 16:14: "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, HEARD (ἀκούω) us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended (προσέχω) unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Jn. 8:43, 47: "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot HEAR (ἀκούω) my word. He that is of God HEARETH (ἀκούω) God's words: ye therefore HEAR (ἀκούω) them not, because ye are not of God."

Jn. 1:13: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God."

II Cor. 5:17: "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new CREATURE (κτίσις, noun form of κτίζω): old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Col. 3:9-10, 12: "Ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that CREATED (κτίζω) him: Put on therefore, as the elect of God..."

Good verses.

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How many times do I have to say it, Arminian? Calvinists do not assume regeneration before faith and repentance, we say that man must do those things this very day. We say that the ONLY way man does those two things is because God allows them to him, for what saith the Scriptures?

Of course Calvinists assume regeneration before repentance and faith, since they say in order for them to be able to do so they must be irresistibly selected.

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Jn. 6:28-29: "Then said they unto him, What shall WE DO, that WE MIGHT WORK (ἐργάζομαι) the WORKS (ἔργον) of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the WORK (ἔργον) of God, THAT YE BELIEVE on him whom he hath sent."

Phil. 1:6: "Being confident of this very thing, that HE which HATH BEGUN a good WORK (ἔργον) in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

Jn. 4:10: "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the GIFT (δωρεά) OF GOD, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; THOU WOULDEST HAVE ASKED OF HIM, and he would have given thee living water."

Eph. 2:8-10: "For by grace are ye saved through FAITH; and THAT not of yourselves: it is the GIFT (δῶρον) OF GOD: Not of WORKS (ἔργον), lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, CREATED (κτίζω) in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God HATH BEFORE ORDAINED that we should walk in them."

Good verses.

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You Arminians DO teach that man provides faith and repentance apart from God's grace, whether or not you'll admit it. You people preach that man ultimately saves himself because he was smart enough to make the right decision. That is unscriptural, proud, and arrogant. Again, Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that Jn. 1:13 is in the PASSIVE VOICE, which means that the subject is being ACTED UPON, and has NOTHING to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. In regeneration, man is CREATED (II Cor. 5:17), BORN AGAIN (Jn. 3:7); a creation cannot resist being created, no one can resist being born. It is God who performs the miracle of regeneration according to His own sovereign will, for what saith the Scriptures?

We are not as smart as Calvinists who assume they are regenerated without having had to repent and believe in Christ.

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Jn. 1:13: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God."

Rom. 9:16, 18: "So then IT IS NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH, NOR OF HIM THAT RUNNETH, BUT OF GOD that sheweth mercy. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."

James 1:17-18: "EVERY good gift and EVERY perfect gift is FROM ABOVE, and cometh down from the Father of lights, WITH WHOM IS NO VARIABLENESS, NEITHER SHADOW OF TURNING. OF HIS OWN WILL begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures."

Amen.

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Again, "studylight.org" defines the Greek imperative mood: "The imperative mood corresponds to the English imperative, and expresses a command [emphasis mine] to the hearer to perform a certain action by the order [emphasis mine] and authority [emphasis mine] of the one commanding [emphasis mine]. Thus, Jesus' phrase, "Repent ye, and believe the gospel" (Mk.1:15) is not at all an "invitation," but an absolute command requiring full obedience on the part of all hearers [emphasis mine]." You are NOT a Greek scholar, you are NOT qualified to give a Greek grammatical opinion, which means your attempt to explain this grammatical RULE away is of no effect. Rev. 22:17c & d are in the imperative mood, which means those statements are COMMANDS, NOT INVITATIONS. You mentioned taxes; go ahead and refuse to pay your taxes and then see what the government does.

God commands you to repent and believe but you refuse to do so.

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You said, "I still find you to be wrong each and every time." Again, very interesting. The UNREGENERATE Pharisees held the same view of Christ, for what saith the Scripture (Mat. 27:63)? "Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again."

Though the Pharisees couldn't prove Jesus wrong, you are proven wrong.

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Yes, God has two wills, a foreordinative will and a preceptive will. Jesus Christ WAS MURDERED the day He was crucified, a DIRECT violation of the Sixth Commandment, but what saith the Scriptures?

God is one being with one will, some of which we don't all understand. God doesn't contradict Himself with two contradictory wills.

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Isa. 53:4: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, SMITTEN OF GOD, and afflicted."

Acts 2:23: "Him, BEING DELIVERED BY THE DETERMINATE COUNSEL AND FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD, ye have taken, and by WICKED hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For TO DO WHATSOEVER THY HAND AND THY COUNSEL DETERMINED BEFORE TO BE DONE."

Praise the Lord!

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You've accused me of being "schizoid or bipolar". Very interesting. UNREGENERATE peopleheld the same view of Christ, for the Scripture saith (Jn. 10:20), "And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is MAD; why hear ye him?"

If it is a sin for God to contradict Himself, then it is a sin for you too.

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You write against God's two wills because you can't understand it. What saith the Scripture (Isa. 55:9)? "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

Nobody can understand God contradicting Himself with two wills, not even God.

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No, the Scriptures do NOT say that man has free will; he has free agency, he is free to do whatever he pleases, but his will is totally enslaved to his own evil nature, for what saith the Scriptures?

Free will is free agency, and man is not Totally enslaved to be unable to receive the gift of repentance and faith.

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Gen. 6:5: "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that EVERY imagination of the thoughts of his heart was ONLY evil continually."

Gen. 8:21: "The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth."

Isa. 1:5-6: "The WHOLE head is sick, and the WHOLE heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is NO soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Jer. 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

Jer. 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately WICKED: who can know it?"

Psa. 9:17: "The WICKED shall be turned into HELL...."

Psa. 10:4: "The WICKED, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in ALL HIS THOUGHTS."

"Psa. 58:3: "The wicked are estranged FROM THE WOMB: they go astray AS SOON AS THEY BE BORN, speaking lies."

Eph. 2:1-3: "And you hath he quickened, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were BY NATURE the children of wrath, even as others."

Some of my favorites.

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Yes, again, unregenerate people can help a lady across the street, but, regarding that, what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 64:6: "But we are ALL as an UNCLEAN THING, and ALL our righteousnesses are as FILTHY RAGS."

Tit. 1:15-16: "Unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK REPROBATE."

Again, the "filthy rags" in Isa. 64:6 are MENSTRUAL RAGS, what we would call today a SOILED TAMPON. Not a pretty picture, is it? That's the BEST man can do apart from God's grace!

No, spiritual death means TOTAL SEPARATION from God, NO SPIRITUAL COMMUNICATION, for what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 59:2: "But your iniquities have SEPARATED between you and your God, and your sins HAVE HID HIS FACE FROM YOU, that he WILL NOT HEAR."

Jn. 9:31: "Now we know that GOD HEARETH NOT SINNERS."

Ergo, you are not Totally depraved. You only think you are to prevent truly receiving Christ.

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No, again, in Heb. 2:9 (ὅπως χάριτι θεοῦ ὑπὲρ παντὸς γεύσηται θανάτου), "man" or "one" is NOT IN THE GREEK TEXT; it's a masculine adjective, πᾶς, being used as a noun. "Every man" or "every one" is determined by the context, which shows clearly that that term refers to believers, the elect of God, for what saith the Scriptures (Heb. 2:9-17)?

No. Jesus died for all, every man.

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"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many SONS unto glory, to make the captain of THEIR salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and THEY WHO ARE SANCTIFIED are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them BRETHREN, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my BRETHREN, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the CHILDREN which God hath given me. Forasmuch then as the CHILDREN are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his BRETHREN, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."

Amen.

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"All things" in Heb. 2:8 refers to the creation; what saith the Scripture (Rom. 8:21)? "Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the CHILDREN OF GOD." "Every man" is a Jewish group designation, as Jn. 2:10 shows clearly.

His grace is sufficient upon all.

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You say God doesn't foreordain sin. What saith the Scriptures?

God is not the author of evil.

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Gen. 50:20: "But as for you, ye thought EVIL against me; but God meant it unto good, TO BRING IT TO PASS, as it is this day, to save much people alive."

Ex. 4:21: "And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I WILL HARDEN HIS HEART, that he shall not let the people go."

Job 1:21: "The LORD gave, and THE LORD HATH TAKEN AWAY."

I Chr. 21:1: "And SATAN stood up against Israel, and PROVOKED DAVID to number Israel."

II Sam. 24:1: "And again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and HE MOVED DAVID against them to say, Go, number Israel and Judah."

That's good Scripture.

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Man's HEART isn't totally depraved? What saith the Scriptures?

Nope. Your idol.

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Isa. 1:5-6: "The whole head is sick, and the WHOLE HEART faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is NO soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Jer. 17:9: "The HEART is deceitful above ALL THINGS, and desperately WICKED: who can know it?"

True.

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No, reprobation is God's leaving some in their own sins, they having been guilty before Him from the moment of conception, JUSTLY condemning them for His own glory in His infinite wisdom. You've accused God of injustice in reprobation; what saith the Scriptures (Rom. 9:19-22)?

I don't believe in Calvinism reprobation because it is evil. I believe in God's reprobation. A person is not guilty for being born into sin.

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"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O MAN, WHO ART THOU THAT REPLIEST AGAINST GOD? SHALL THE THING FORMED SAY TO HIM THAT FORMED IT, WHY HAST THOU MADE ME THUS? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, WILLING TO SHEW HIS WRATH, AND TO MAKE HIS POWER KNOWN, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath FITTED TO DESTRUCTION."

How true.

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Your desperation is showing, having accused me of worshiping men, because you CANNOT REFUTE what I wrote, that Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that "fitted to destruction" is in the PASSIVE VOICE, which means that the subject is being ACTED UPON, and has NOTHING to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. What saith the Scripture?

You are fitted to destruction.

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Dan. 4:35: "And ALL the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as NOTHING: and HE DOETH ACCORDING TO HIS WILL in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and NONE CAN STAY HIS HAND, or say unto him, What doest thou?"

Yes.

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No, Pharaoh's hardened heart was God's foreordinative plan; what saith the Scriptures?

God foreknew the Pharaoh would harden his heart first.

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Ex. 3:19: "And I AM SURE that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand."

Ex. 4:21: "And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I WILL HARDEN HIS HEART, that he shall not let the people go."

Ex. 9:17: "And in very deed FOR THIS CAUSE have I raised thee up, for TO SHEW IN THEE MY POWER; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth."

Rom. 9:22: "What if God, WILLING TO SHEW HIS WRATH, AND TO MAKE HIS POWER KNOWN, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath FITTED TO DESTRUCTION."

Yes.

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Again, a careful examination of the Hebrew shows that God hardened Pharaoh's heart by LEAVING IT IN ITS NATURAL STATE, that of a totally depraved, wicked sinner. What saith the Scriptures?

God only hardened his heart after the Pharaoh hardened his own heart first.

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Ex. 7:14: "And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is HARDENED (Heb. "kabed") he refuseth to let the people go."

Ex. 17:12: "But Moses' hands were HEAVY (Heb. "kabed")."

Ex. 18:18: "Thou wilt surely wear away, both thou, and this people that is with thee: for this thing is too HEAVY (Heb. "kabed") for thee."

Num. 11:14: "I am not able to bear all this people alone, because it is too HEAVY (Heb. "kabed") for me."

I Kgs. 12:4: "Thy father made our yoke grievous: now therefore make thou the grievous service of thy father, and his HEAVY (Heb. "kabed") yoke which he put upon us, lighter, and we will serve thee."

Psa. 38:4: "For mine INIQUITIES are gone over mine head: as an HEAVY (Heb. "kabed") burden they are too heavy for me."

Isa. 1:4: "Ah sinful nation, a people LADEN (Heb. "kabed") WITH INIQUITY..."

Amen.

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Your ignorance of Calvinistic teaching shows once again. Reprobation is divided into two components: preterition and condemnation. Preterition is unconditional, whereas condemnation is conditional.

You contradicted yourself. Condemnation is conditional but preterition sends the person to Hell from birth without a condition.

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You say God loves everyone? What saith the Scriptures?

Psa. 5:5: "Thou HATEST all workers of iniquity."

Psa. 11:5: "The wicked and him that loveth violence his soul HATETH."

Psa. 53:4-5: "Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God. There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath DESPISED them."

Rom. 9:13: "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I HATED."

Yes, God loves everyone to provide sufficient grace to all.

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No, Jesus died for the elect only, securing our salvation at Calvary. Yes, Jn. 1:29, Jn. 4:42, I Jn. 4:14, and Jn. 3:16-17 all use the term "world" (κόσμος); what saith the Scriptures?

Jesus died for all, securing salvation for the elect who were willing.

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Jn. 12:19-20: "The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the WORLD (κόσμος) is gone after him. And there were certain GREEKS among them that came up to worship at the feast."

Rom. 11:12: "Now if the fall of them be the riches of the WORLD (κόσμος), and the diminishing of them the riches of the GENTILES."

Yes.

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II Cor. 5:14-17 is determined by context, which shows clearly that "all" refers to God's elect; what saith the Scriptures?

"For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for ALL, then were ALL dead: And that he died for ALL, that THEY WHICH LIVE should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for THEM, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know WE no man after the flesh: yea, though WE have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know WE him no more. Therefore if any man be IN CHRIST, he is a NEW CREATURE: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Clearly this all means everyone, not just the elect.

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Regarding I Jn. 2:2, what saith the Scriptures?

Gal. 2:9: "And when James, Cephas, and JOHN, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they UNTO THE CIRCUMCISION."

I Jn. 2:2: "And he is the propitiation for OUR sins: and NOT FOR OURS ONLY, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD (κόσμος)."

Jn. 11:51b-52: "Being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for THAT NATION (ἔθνος); And NOT FOR THAT NATION (ἔθνος) ONLY, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad."

Rom. 1:5, 8: "By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among ALL NATIONS (ἔθνος), for his name: First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the WHOLE WORLD (κόσμος)."

Amen.

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Again, Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Greek grammarian of modern times, says that the sense of σωτήρ in I Tim. 4:10 is "preserver"; so say Greek scholars W.E. Vine, J.N. Darby, and George Ricker Berry as well.

That's nice.

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Regarding Mat. 23:37, was Christ speaking as the sovereign God of Heaven and Earth, or was He speaking as a human being, as He did in Jn. 5:30, where the Scripture saith, "I can of mine own self do nothing." What did He tell Jeremiah as God (Jer. 23:37)? "Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?" Furthermore regarding this, what saith the Scriptures?

Mat. 23:37: "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and YE WOULD NOT!"

Ex. 10:27: "But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and HE WOULD NOT let them go."

Yes the Scripture says these things.

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You're avoiding the point. From the time God called Abram out of Ur of the Chaldees until Acts chapter 10, the Gentiles were LEFT OUT of God's salvation plan, He having passed them by, dealing EXCLUSIVELY with Israel electively FOR CENTURIES. You Arminians never accuse God of injustice for that, yet you all have the audacity to suggest God is unjust in reprobation, which very well may be blasphemy, as you all are accusing Jehovah of injustice.

This doesn't mean others could not be saved. God would be unjust if He held to Calvinist reprobation.

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Where did I say that water baptism wasn't for believers only? Of course it is.

Then baptism must follow regeneration and not before.

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The only thing we've seen about the Scriptures I've presented is your HERETICAL efforts to distort, to pervert, and to deny them.

You are not even born-again because you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated.

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In Rom. 5:15 Paul changes the object of his discussion to BELIEVERS, for what saith the Scriptures?

I Cor. 15:22: "For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ shall ALL be MADE ALIVE."

Many receive His gift because they receive Jesus.

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Rom. 5:15-19: "But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto MANY. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more THEY WHICH RECEIVE ABUNDANCE OF GRACE AND OF THE GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be MADE RIGHTEOUS."

Amen.

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What does "all men" mean in Rom. 5:18 and I Tim. 2:4? What does "all" mean in I Tim. 2:6? What saith the Scriptures?

To the whole world: God's sufficient grace. I am glad I don't read the Bible like you.

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Acts 9:15: "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before THE GENTILES, and KINGS, and THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL."

Acts 22:15: "For thou shalt be his witness unto ALL MEN of what thou hast seen and heard."

Rom. 2:9-11: "Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of THE GENTILE; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to THE GENTILE: For there is NO RESPECT OF PERSONS with God."

Rom. 10:12: "For there is no difference between the Jew and the GREEK: for the same Lord over ALL is rich unto all that call upon him."

I Tim. 2:1-7: "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL MEN; For KINGS, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, TO BE TESTIFIED IN DUE TIME. WHEREUNTO I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of THE GENTILES in faith and verity."

Praise Jesus!

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No, when God draws someone to Christ, He draws him IRRESISTIBLY; there is NOTHING in man's nature that desires God. What saith the Scriptures?

God never forces anyone, for many "draw back unto perdition" (Heb. 10.39). God pleads with us all because we can desire after God.

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Job 15:16: "How much more ABOMINABLE and FILTHY is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?"

Isa. 1:5-6: "The WHOLE head is sick, and the WHOLE heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is NO soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Isa. 64:6: "But we are ALL as an UNCLEAN THING, and ALL our righteousnesses are as FILTHY RAGS."

Rom. 3:11: "There is none that understandeth, there is NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD."

Jn. 6:44: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me DRAW (ἕλκω) him."

Jn. 18:10: "Then Simon Peter having a sword DREW (ἕλκω) it...."

Jn. 21:6: "They cast therefore, and now they were not able TO DRAW (ἕλκω) it for the multitude of fishes."

Acts 21:30: "And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and DREW (ἕλκω) him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut."

Willfulness not Total depravity.

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No, I say that man is able to do exactly what he wants to do, that he can take of the "water of life" whenever he has a desire for that, but he'll never have a desire for that unless God allows that to him. What saith the Scriptures?

God provides sufficient grace to us all to take of the water of life freely so that none have an excuse.

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Mat. 16:16-17: "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for FLESH AND BLOOD HATH NOT REVEALED IT UNTO THEE, BUT MY FATHER which is in heaven."

Jn. 3:27: "A man can receive NOTHING, except it be GIVEN (δίδωμι) him from heaven."

Jn. 6:65: "NO MAN can come unto me, except it were GIVEN (δίδωμι) unto him of my Father."

Acts 11:18: "Then HATH GOD...GRANTED (δίδωμι) REPENTANCE unto life."

Acts 13:48: "And AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED to eternal life believed."

II Tim. 2:25: "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if GOD...WILL GIVE (δίδωμι)...REPENTANCE to the acknowledging of the truth."

Amens.

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Mat. 11:28 is in the IMPERATIVE MOOD in the Greek; "come unto me" is a COMMAND, NOT AN INVITATION. Again, Rev. 22:17c & d are ALSO in the imperative mood, which means they are COMMANDS, NOT INVITATIONS.

Why do you refuse His command and invitation?

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It's not for you or me or anybody else to understand how God foreordains sin for His own glory; if He says He did it, and He DID say it, He did it!

Nah! God doesn't contradict Himself. Be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8).

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No, sir, you are NOT an apostle. That is proud, arrogant, and unscriptural. There were twelve legitimate apostles; those dear men have accomplished their work on this earth. I Cor. 15:7 says that after James saw Jesus He was then seen by "all the apostles"; it means simply that He appeared to the twelve apostles at the same time after James saw Him. And no, Janias was NOT an apostle. Have you never read I Tim. 2:12?

You shouldn't accuse the Apostles, for judgment comes upon you. Paul was a legitimate Apostle. The Apostles work today (Eph. 4.11) in the Ministry for the Church. The 12 Apostles saw Jesus then a larger group of Apostles, all of them. Junias was notable among the Apostle, and a more prominent one at that. You're misreading 1 Tim. 2.12 being abusive to women. Figures. You're a Calvinist.

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No, ᾅδης is HELL, just as γέεννα is Hell. Only γέεννα is designated as the Lake of Fire (Rev. 20:14-15), but they are both places of righteous torment for the reprobate.

There are not two Hells. You can't throw Hell into Hell. You can throw Hades into Hell.

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You said, "If I believed what you did, I demand that I go to Hell deservingly." Be careful what you wish for, Arminian; God may give it to you.

Nah, I will never lose salvation and thus, can never be a Calvinist.

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You hear me again, sir. I've said it before, and I'm saying it again; I'M NOT AFRAID OF YOU or THE DEVIL that's motivating you. BY GOD'S GRACE, I'M NOT GOING AWAY, I WILL NOT BE INTIMIDATED. IF THE LORD WILL, I will continue to defend the truth of Calvinism in this forum, as I now call respectfully upon the LORD JESUS CHRIST to give me the grace to do it, to His glory and honor, for He is worthy (Rev. 4:11).

You are not born-again. You worship a false Christ.

The reason you are not born-again is simple: 1) You refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated by erecting an idol called Total depravity which says you can't so you won't; 2) You worship a god who sends people to Hell from birth without any opportunity to be saved and they could do nothing about it; 3) You worship a god who does not provide sufficient grace to all or is unable (impotent) to; 4) You worship an evil tyrant that must irresistibly impose its kind of regeneration on people without giving them the choice (not much of a gift); 5) Your god contradicts himself with his two wills you claim secretly doesn't want all to be saved but openly says he does and if something is a secret then by definition you can't make any claim about it or if it even exists; 6) It's wrong for your god to tell people to deliver the Calvinism gospel to the Calvinism reprobate because that gives them false hope and really makes your god sadistic and mocking.

It's time to grow up! Or you will spend eternity in Hell.
11-18-2009, 04:26 PM
briancook007

You still don't produce the Scriptures to back your position; you do your best to distort, to pervert, and to deny the Scriptures that I have given. It won't work, for it is written (Isa. 55:11), "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

No, Acts 16:14 says, "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped (σέβω) God, heard (ἀκούω) us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." When it says she "heard" them, it's talking about her spiritual ears, for what saith the Scripture (Mk. 4:9)? "And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear (ἀκούω), let him hear (ἀκούω)." God opened her heart, He regenerated her, thus producing the effectual response to the Gospel, faith and repentance.

No, when one worships God falsely, they are not worshiping a false god, they are worshiping in vain. The two are different. What saith the Scriptures?

Mt. 15:9: "But in vain they do worship (σέβω)me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Mk. 7:7: "Howbeit in vain do they worship (σέβω) me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

No, Paul mentions nothing of Lydia before Luke mentions her in his narrative.

No, again, Calvinists do NOT assume regeneration before faith and repentance, we say that man must do those things this very day. We say that the ONLY way man does those two things is because God allows them to him AS A RESULT of regeneration, that those two things are the fruits of regeneration, not the causes of it.

No, sir, the only thing that has been proven wrong in this debate is your Arminian heresy, for the Word of God has defeated it.

You Arminians say God doesn't foreordain sin in His infinite wisdom for His own glory. What saith the Scriptures?

Jos. 11:20: "For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses."

I Sam. 16:23: " And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him."

II Sam. 16:8-11: "The LORD hath returned upon thee all the blood of the house of Saul, in whose stead thou hast reigned; and the LORD hath delivered the kingdom into the hand of Absalom thy son: and, behold, thou art taken in thy mischief, because thou art a bloody man. Then said Abishai the son of Zeruiah unto the king, Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? let me go over, I pray thee, and take off his head. And the king said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah? so let him curse, because the LORD hath said unto him, Curse David. Who shall then say, Wherefore hast thou done so? And David said to Abishai, and to all his servants, Behold, my son, which came forth of my bowels, seeketh my life: how much more now may this Benjamite do it? let him alone, and let him curse; for the LORD hath bidden him."

I Kgs. 22:23: "Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee."

II Kgs. 24:2-3: "And the LORD sent against him bands of the Chaldees, and bands of the Syrians, and bands of the Moabites, and bands of the children of Ammon, and sent them against Judah to destroy it, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake by his servants the prophets. Surely at the commandment of the LORD came this upon Judah, to remove them out of his sight, for the sins of Manasseh, according to all that he did."

II Chr. 33:11: "Wherefore the LORD brought upon them the captains of the host of the king of Assyria, which took Manasseh among the thorns, and bound him with fetters, and carried him to Babylon."

II Chr. 36:16-17: "But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy. Therefore he brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: he gave them all into his hand."

Isa. 5:25-29: "Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still. And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly: None shall be weary nor stumble among them; none shall slumber nor sleep; neither shall the girdle of their loins be loosed, nor the latchet of their shoes be broken: Whose arrows are sharp, and all their bows bent, their horses' hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind: Their roaring shall be like a lion, they shall roar like young lions: yea, they shall roar, and lay hold of the prey, and shall carry it away safe, and none shall deliver it."

Isa. 10:5-7, 15: "O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation. I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few. Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood."

Jer. 25:9-12: "Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations."

Lam. 1:17: "Zion spreadeth forth her hands, and there is none to comfort her: the LORD hath commanded concerning Jacob, that his adversaries should be round about him: Jerusalem is as a menstruous woman among them."

Amos 9:9: "For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth."

Isa. 53:4: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."

Lk. 22:22: "And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!"

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 3:18: "But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

Acts 19:9: "But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus."

I Pet. 2:8: "And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."

Rev. 17:17: "For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."

Man isn't totally depraved? What saith the Scripture (Jn. 6:65)? "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can (δύναμαι) come unto me, except it were given (δίδωμι) unto him of my Father." δύναμαι means "to be able"; man is NOT able of his own ability to come to Christ, for the Scripture saith (Isa. 1:5-6): "The WHOLE head is sick, and the WHOLE heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is NO soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

No, Jesus died for the elect only, those whom the Father had chosen, for what saith the Scriptures?

Jn. 10:11, 15: "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep."

Eph. 5:25-28: "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify (ἁγιάζω) and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

Heb. 2:9-17: ""But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many SONS unto glory, to make the captain of THEIR salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and THEY WHO ARE SANCTIFIED(ἁγιάζω) are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them BRETHREN, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my BRETHREN, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the CHILDREN which God hath given me. Forasmuch then as the CHILDREN are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his BRETHREN, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."

Heb. 10:14: "For by one offering he hath perfected (τελειόω) for ever them that are sanctified (ἁγιάζω)."

I Pet. 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification (ἁγιασμός) of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

You still accuse God of injustice in reprobation? What saith the Scriptures (Rom. 9:19-22)?

"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O MAN, WHO ART THOU THAT REPLIEST AGAINST GOD? SHALL THE THING FORMED SAY TO HIM THAT FORMED IT, WHY HAST THOU MADE ME THUS? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, WILLING TO SHEW HIS WRATH, AND TO MAKE HIS POWER KNOWN, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath FITTED TO DESTRUCTION."

No, Pharaoh's hardened heart was God's foreordinative plan; for what saith the Scriptures?

Ex. 3:19: "And I AM SURE that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand."

Ex. 4:21: "And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I WILL HARDEN HIS HEART, that he shall not let the people go."

Ex. 9:17: "And in very deed FOR THIS CAUSE have I raised thee up, for TO SHEW IN THEE MY POWER; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth."

Rom. 9:22: "What if God, WILLING TO SHEW HIS WRATH, AND TO MAKE HIS POWER KNOWN, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath FITTED TO DESTRUCTION."

Dan. 4:35: "And ALL the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as NOTHING: and HE DOETH ACCORDING TO HIS WILL in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and NONE CAN STAY HIS HAND, or say unto him, What doest thou?"

No, sir, reprobation is divided into two components: preterition and condemnation. Preterition, God's passing by of the reprobate, is unconditional; condemnation, God's judging the reprobate for their sins, is conditional.

No, God does NOT love every single member of the human race, for what saith the Scriptures?

Psa. 5:5: "Thou HATEST all workers of iniquity."

Psa. 11:5: "The wicked and him that loveth violence his soul HATETH."

Psa. 53:4-5: "Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God. There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath DESPISED them."

Rom. 9:13: "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I HATED."

No, Christ secured the salvation of God's elect at Calvary, not because we were willing, but despite the fact that we were unwilling; what saith the Scripture (Jn. 5:40)? "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." George Ricker Berry, noted Greek scholar, translates this verse as, "Ye are unwilling to come to me...."

No, "all" in II Cor. 5:14-17 refers to God's elect; what saith the Scriptures?

"For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for ALL, then were ALL dead: And that he died for ALL, that THEY WHICH LIVE should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for THEM, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know WE no man after the flesh: yea, though WE have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know WE him no more. Therefore if any man be IN CHRIST, he is a NEW CREATURE: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Yes, water baptism follows faith and repentance; regeneration produces faith and repentance.

The Scriptures always must be interpreted from a Jewish cultural perspective; the terms "world", "whole world", and "all men" always must be defined this way.

The Greek word translated "of them who draw back" in Heb. 10:39 is ὑποστολή, and that Scripture refers to human responsibility. Jn. 6:44 refers to an irresistible drawing on God's part, for what saith the Scriptures?

Job 15:16: "How much more ABOMINABLE and FILTHY is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?"

Isa. 1:5-6: "The WHOLE head is sick, and the WHOLE heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is NO soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Isa. 64:6: "But we are ALL as an UNCLEAN THING, and ALL our righteousnesses are as FILTHY RAGS."

Rom. 3:11: "There is none that understandeth, there is NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD."

Jn. 6:44: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me DRAW (ἕλκω) him."

Jn. 18:10: "Then Simon Peter having a sword DREW (ἕλκω) it...."

Jn. 21:6: "They cast therefore, and now they were not able TO DRAW (ἕλκω) it for the multitude of fishes."

Acts 21:30: "And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and DREW (ἕλκω) him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut."

There are two places of torment for the reprobate, ᾅδης and γέεννα. One day ᾅδης will be thrown into γέεννα, but that doesn't nullify what I just said.

You hear me again, sir. I'M NOT AFRAID OF YOU or THE DEVIL that's motivating you, and don't you ever forget it. BY GOD'S GRACE, I'M NOT GOING AWAY, I WILL NOT BE INTIMIDATED. IF THE LORD WILL, I will continue to defend the truth of Calvinism in this forum, as I now call respectfully upon the LORD JESUS CHRIST to give me the grace to do it, to His glory and honor, for He is worthy (Rev. 4:11).

You wrote, "You are not born-again. You worship a false Christ.

"The reason you are not born-again is simple: 1) You refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated by erecting an idol called Total depravity which says you can't so you won't; 2) You worship a god who sends people to Hell from birth without any opportunity to be saved and they could do nothing about it; 3) You worship a god who does not provide sufficient grace to all or is unable (impotent) to; 4) You worship an evil tyrant that must irresistibly impose its kind of regeneration on people without giving them the choice (not much of a gift); 5) your god contradicts himself with his two wills you claim secretly doesn't want all to be saved but openly says he does; 6) if something is a secret then by definition you can't make any claim about it or if it even exists.

"It's time to grow up! Or you will spend eternity in Hell."

<Removed impersonal, repetitive, copy and past large block of text>
11-18-2009, 05:17 PM
Churchwork
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Originally Posted by briancook007

You still don't produce the Scriptures to back your position; you do your best to distort, to pervert, and to deny the Scriptures that I have given. It won't work, for it is written (Isa. 55:11), "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."

None of the verses you give support your case. You have to read into the text.

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No, Acts 16:14 says, "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped (σέβω) God, heard (ἀκούω) us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul." When it says she "heard" them, it's talking about her spiritual ears, for what saith the Scripture (Mk. 4:9)? "And he said unto them, He that hath ears to hear (ἀκούω), let him hear (ἀκούω)." God opened her heart, He regenerated her, thus producing the effectual response to the Gospel, faith and repentance.

First things first, she worshiped God.

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No, when one worships God falsely, they are not worshiping a false god, they are worshiping in vain. The two are different. What saith the Scriptures?

Mt. 15:9: "But in vain they do worship (σέβω)me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Mk. 7:7: "Howbeit in vain do they worship (σέβω) me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Lydia didn't worship in vain. Vain worship is not to God but a false God, treating God falsely.

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No, Paul mentions nothing of Lydia before Luke mentions her in his narrative.

That's right. First mention is she worshiped God not in vain.

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No, again, Calvinists do NOT assume regeneration before faith and repentance, we say that man must do those things this very day. We say that the ONLY way man does those two things is because God allows them to him AS A RESULT of regeneration, that those two things are the fruits of regeneration, not the causes of it.

You can't do it if you are Totally depraved. You can't be demanded to do something you can't do. There are no verses for Total depravity or irresistible regeneration.

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No, sir, the only thing that has been proven wrong in this debate is your Arminian heresy, for the Word of God has defeated it.

Where?

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You Arminians say God doesn't foreordain sin in His infinite wisdom for His own glory. What saith the Scriptures?

Jos. 11:20: "For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses."

I Sam. 16:23: " And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him."

II Sam. 16:8-11: "The LORD hath returned upon thee all the blood of the house of Saul, in whose stead thou hast reigned; and the LORD hath delivered the kingdom into the hand of Absalom thy son: and, behold, thou art taken in thy mischief, because thou art a bloody man. Then said Abishai the son of Zeruiah unto the king, Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? let me go over, I pray thee, and take off his head. And the king said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah? so let him curse, because the LORD hath said unto him, Curse David. Who shall then say, Wherefore hast thou done so? And David said to Abishai, and to all his servants, Behold, my son, which came forth of my bowels, seeketh my life: how much more now may this Benjamite do it? let him alone, and let him curse; for the LORD hath bidden him."

I Kgs. 22:23: "Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee."

II Kgs. 24:2-3: "And the LORD sent against him bands of the Chaldees, and bands of the Syrians, and bands of the Moabites, and bands of the children of Ammon, and sent them against Judah to destroy it, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake by his servants the prophets. Surely at the commandment of the LORD came this upon Judah, to remove them out of his sight, for the sins of Manasseh, according to all that he did."

II Chr. 33:11: "Wherefore the LORD brought upon them the captains of the host of the king of Assyria, which took Manasseh among the thorns, and bound him with fetters, and carried him to Babylon."

II Chr. 36:16-17: "But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy. Therefore he brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: he gave them all into his hand."

Isa. 5:25-29: "Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still. And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly: None shall be weary nor stumble among them; none shall slumber nor sleep; neither shall the girdle of their loins be loosed, nor the latchet of their shoes be broken: Whose arrows are sharp, and all their bows bent, their horses' hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind: Their roaring shall be like a lion, they shall roar like young lions: yea, they shall roar, and lay hold of the prey, and shall carry it away safe, and none shall deliver it."

Isa. 10:5-7, 15: "O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation. I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few. Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood."

Jer. 25:9-12: "Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations."

Lam. 1:17: "Zion spreadeth forth her hands, and there is none to comfort her: the LORD hath commanded concerning Jacob, that his adversaries should be round about him: Jerusalem is as a menstruous woman among them."

Amos 9:9: "For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth."

Isa. 53:4: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."

Lk. 22:22: "And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!"

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 3:18: "But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

Acts 19:9: "But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus."

I Pet. 2:8: "And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."

Rev. 17:17: "For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."

Where is God the author of sin here? He uses evil for good.

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Man isn't totally depraved? What saith the Scripture (Jn. 6:65)? "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can (δύναμαι) come unto me, except it were given (δίδωμι) unto him of my Father." δύναμαι means "to be able"; man is NOT able of his own ability to come to Christ, for the Scripture saith (Isa. 1:5-6): "The WHOLE head is sick, and the WHOLE heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is NO soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

God is the provider: He provides the power and the strength and grace. Nothing about irresistible coercion.

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No, Jesus died for the elect only, those whom the Father had chosen, for what saith the Scriptures?

He died for everyone, except many refuse His love such as yourself. So you are not one of the people He has chosen. You can't look back upon your life and say Jesus died for you.

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Jn. 10:11, 15: "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep."

Eph. 5:25-28: "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify (ἁγιάζω) and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

Heb. 2:9-17: ""But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many SONS unto glory, to make the captain of THEIR salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and THEY WHO ARE SANCTIFIED(ἁγιάζω) are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them BRETHREN, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my BRETHREN, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the CHILDREN which God hath given me. Forasmuch then as the CHILDREN are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his BRETHREN, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."

Heb. 10:14: "For by one offering he hath perfected (τελειόω) for ever them that are sanctified (ἁγιάζω)."

I Pet. 1:2: "Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification (ἁγιασμός) of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

Amen.

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You still accuse God of injustice in reprobation? What saith the Scriptures (Rom. 9:19-22)?

"Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O MAN, WHO ART THOU THAT REPLIEST AGAINST GOD? SHALL THE THING FORMED SAY TO HIM THAT FORMED IT, WHY HAST THOU MADE ME THUS? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, WILLING TO SHEW HIS WRATH, AND TO MAKE HIS POWER KNOWN, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath FITTED TO DESTRUCTION."

You're confusing Satanic Hitler-type reprobation with God's reprobation.

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No, Pharaoh's hardened heart was God's foreordinative plan; for what saith the Scriptures?

Ex. 3:19: "And I AM SURE that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand."

Ex. 4:21: "And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I WILL HARDEN HIS HEART, that he shall not let the people go."

Ex. 9:17: "And in very deed FOR THIS CAUSE have I raised thee up, for TO SHEW IN THEE MY POWER; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth."

Rom. 9:22: "What if God, WILLING TO SHEW HIS WRATH, AND TO MAKE HIS POWER KNOWN, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath FITTED TO DESTRUCTION."

Dan. 4:35: "And ALL the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as NOTHING: and HE DOETH ACCORDING TO HIS WILL in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and NONE CAN STAY HIS HAND, or say unto him, What doest thou?"

No, even Piper your Calvinist brethren, admits from the clear reading of the text the Pharaoh hardened his own heart first in the first active instance. Which is sorta funny if you think about it because Piper is a Calvinists and being a Calvinist requires irresistible hardening. The doublespeak never ends. Thank God there is a Hell!

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No, sir, reprobation is divided into two components: preterition and condemnation. Preterition, God's passing by of the reprobate, is unconditional; condemnation, God's judging the reprobate for their sins, is conditional.

Passing over is evil, for God wants none to perish. Sending someone to Hell from birth is wrong.

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No, God does NOT love every single member of the human race, for what saith the Scriptures?

Psa. 5:5: "Thou HATEST all workers of iniquity."

Psa. 11:5: "The wicked and him that loveth violence his soul HATETH."

Psa. 53:4-5: "Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God. There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath DESPISED them."

Rom. 9:13: "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I HATED."

God loves everyone to die for the sins of the world. He hates wickedness.

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No, Christ secured the salvation of God's elect at Calvary, not because we were willing, but despite the fact that we were unwilling; what saith the Scripture (Jn. 5:40)? "And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." George Ricker Berry, noted Greek scholar, translates this verse as, "Ye are unwilling to come to me...."

God provides sufficient grace to all. Don't confuse Total depravity with willfulness. You can still help an old lady across street as you can obtain the gift of salvation.

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No, "all" in II Cor. 5:14-17 refers to God's elect; what saith the Scriptures?

"For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for ALL, then were ALL dead: And that he died for ALL, that THEY WHICH LIVE should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for THEM, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know WE no man after the flesh: yea, though WE have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know WE him no more. Therefore if any man be IN CHRIST, he is a NEW CREATURE: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

"All" and "All dead" here refer not to those who died with Christ in co-death but to all things summed up in Christ, so "He died for all"; and it is "they which live" out of the "all" who have died with Christ and are new creations. You're in your head, not reading by the Holy Spirit at all.

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Yes, water baptism follows faith and repentance; regeneration produces faith and repentance.

Increased faith and repentance certainly flow from regeneration, for it is the new life, but regeneration is not to be assumed, but you must first repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated, otherwise you will go to Hell. You're still unwilling, blocked by the idol of Total depravity you erect so you can keep your selfish salvation.

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The Scriptures always must be interpreted from a Jewish cultural perspective; the terms "world", "whole world", and "all men" always must be defined this way.

The Greek word translated "of them who draw back" in Heb. 10:39 is ὑποστολή, and that Scripture refers to human responsibility. Jn. 6:44 refers to an irresistible drawing on God's part, for what saith the Scriptures?

The drawing is unto regeneration, but sadly many draw back. John 6.44 says all those who come to God must be drawn not that all drawn must come to God. Your practical logic is not so good.

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Job 15:16: "How much more ABOMINABLE and FILTHY is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?"

Isa. 1:5-6: "The WHOLE head is sick, and the WHOLE heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is NO soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Isa. 64:6: "But we are ALL as an UNCLEAN THING, and ALL our righteousnesses are as FILTHY RAGS."

Rom. 3:11: "There is none that understandeth, there is NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD."

Jn. 6:44: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me DRAW (ἕλκω) him."

Jn. 18:10: "Then Simon Peter having a sword DREW (ἕλκω) it...."

Jn. 21:6: "They cast therefore, and now they were not able TO DRAW (ἕλκω) it for the multitude of fishes."

Acts 21:30: "And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and DREW (ἕλκω) him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut."

Amen.

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There are two places of torment for the reprobate, ᾅδης and γέεννα. One day ᾅδης will be thrown into γέεννα, but that doesn't nullify what I just said.

Hell is not thrown into Hell. Hades is thrown into Hell. You're confused. Speaking to me in tongues won't help you either.

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You hear me again, sir. I'M NOT AFRAID OF YOU or THE DEVIL that's motivating you, and don't you ever forget it. BY GOD'S GRACE, I'M NOT GOING AWAY, I WILL NOT BE INTIMIDATED. IF THE LORD WILL, I will continue to defend the truth of Calvinism in this forum, as I now call respectfully upon the LORD JESUS CHRIST to give me the grace to do it, to His glory and honor, for He is worthy (Rev. 4:11).

You're not born-again. The reason you are not born-again is simple:
1. You refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated by erecting an idol called Total depravity which says you can't so you won't;
2. You worship a god who sends people to Hell from birth without any opportunity to be saved and they could do nothing about it. What love is this? You worship a god who does not provide sufficient grace to all or is unable (impotent) to. Isn't this what Hitler did to the Jews?;
3. You worship an evil tyrant that must irresistibly impose its kind of regeneration on people without giving them the choice (not much of a gift). Isn't this what Hitler did to his Aryan race?;
4. Your god contradicts himself with his two wills you claim secretly doesn't want all to be saved but openly says he does. If something is a secret then by definition you can't make any claim about it or if it even exists;
5. It's wrong to give people false hope to deliver the gospel to them when your god made them unable to respond. There is no way around this duplicity and charade;
6. The god of Calvinism could save all, but doesn't, whereas God of the Bible doesn't save all because most people refuse His love, e.g. Calvinists.
Let's call this the 6 Major Sins of Calvinism.
11-22-2009, 12:45 PM
briancook007

The Scriptures that I have given DO support Calvinism, no matter what linguistic legerdemain you may use to attempt to explain them away.

No, when God is worshiped in vain, a false god is not being worshiped, God is being worshiped in vain; THAT is what the Scriptures say. And NO, the Scriptures NEVER say Lydia worshiped God NOT in vain. If anybody is engaging in eisegesis in this debate it is you, sir.

You're still evading. Your argument is predicated on Lydia's having been saved before Acts 16:14, that because she worshiped (σέβω) God, that that proves she was a believer. What saith the Scriptures?

Mt. 15:9: "But IN VAIN they do worship (σέβω) ME, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Mk. 7:7: "Howbeit IN VAIN do they worship (σέβω) ME, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Jn. 8:43, 47: "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot HEAR (ἀκούω) my word. He that is of God HEARETH (ἀκούω) God's words: ye therefore HEAR (ἀκούω) them not, because ye are not of God."

Jn. 1:13: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God."

II Cor. 5:17: "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new CREATURE (κτίσις, "CREATION"): old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Acts 13:48: "And when the Gentiles HEARD THIS (ἀκούω), they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED to eternal life BELIEVED."

Acts 16:14: "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped (σέβω) God, HEARD (ἀκούω) us: whose heart THE LORD opened (διανοίγω, "to open thoroughly"), THAT SHE ATTENDED (προσέχω) unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

When it says she "heard" them, it's talking about her spiritual ears, for what saith the Scripture (Mk. 4:9)? "And he said unto them, He that hath ears TO HEAR (ἀκούω), LET HIM HEAR (ἀκούω)." God opened her heart, He regenerated her, thus producing the effectual response to the Gospel, faith and repentance; such was the case in Acts 13:48. Lydia was baptized immediately, showing that this was her salvation experience, just as the Philippian jailor was baptized immediately upon his salvation experience (Acts 16:30-33).

You say there are no verses for total inability? The Greek word δύναμαι, "to be able", is found in Jn. 3:27, Jn. 6:44, and Jn. 6:65. What saith the Scriptures?

Jn. 3:27 (George Ricker Berry Interlinear Greek-English New Testament translation): "A man IS ABLE to receive NOTHING unless it be given to him from the heaven."

Jn. 3:27 (Young's Literal Translation): "A man IS NOT ABLE to receive ANYTHING, if it may not have been given him from the heaven."

Jn. 3:27 (Philip W. Comfort New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament): "A man IS NOT ABLE to receive ANYTHING unless it has been given to him from Heaven."

Jn. 6:44 (George Ricker Berry Interlinear Greek-English New Testament translation): "NO one IS ABLE to come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise up him at the last day."

Jn. 6:44 (Young's Literal Translation): "NO one IS ABLE to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day."

Jn. 6:44 (Philip W. Comfort New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament): "NO one IS ABLE to come to me unless the Father having sent me should draw him, and I will raise up him in the last day."

Jn. 6:65 (George Ricker Berry Interlinear Greek-English New Testament translation): "NO one IS ABLE to come to me unless it be given to him from my Father."

Jn. 6:65 (Young's Literal Translation): "NO one IS ABLE to come unto me, if it may not have been given him from my Father."

Jn. 6:65: (Philip W. Comfort New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament): "NO one IS ABLE to come to me unless it has been given to him from the Father."

You say there are no verses for total depravity or irresistible grace? What saith the Scriptures?

Jer. 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? THEN MAY YE ALSO DO GOOD, that are accustomed to do evil."

Jer. 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately WICKED: who can know it?"

Psa. 9:17: "The wicked shall be turned into HELL...."

Psa. 10:4: "The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in ALL HIS THOUGHTS."

"Psa. 58:3: "The wicked are estranged FROM THE WOMB: they go astray AS SOON AS THEY BE BORN, speaking lies."

Eph. 2:1-3: "And you hath he quickened, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were BY NATURE the children of wrath, even as others."

Job 15:16: "How much more ABOMINABLE and FILTHY is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?"

Isa. 1:5-6: "The WHOLE head is sick, and the WHOLE heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is NO soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Isa. 64:6: "But we are ALL as an UNCLEAN THING, and ALL our RIGHTEOUSNESSES are as FILTHY RAGS."

Rom. 3:10-11: "As it is written, There is none RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE: There is NONE that understandeth (συνίημι), there is NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD."

Jn. 6:44: "NO man CAN come to me, EXCEPT the Father which hath sent me DRAW (ἕλκω) him."

Jn. 18:10: "Then Simon Peter having a sword DREW (ἕλκω) it...."

Jn. 21:6: "They cast therefore, and now they were not able TO DRAW (ἕλκω) it for the multitude of fishes."

Acts 21:30: "And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and DREW (ἕλκω) him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut."

Eze. 36:26-27: "A NEW HEART also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the STONY HEART out of your flesh, and I will give you an HEART OF FLESH. And I will put my spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

Acts 16:14: "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart THE LORD opened, THAT SHE ATTENDED(προσέχω)unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

You wish to know where the Word of God has defeated your Arminian HERESY? What saith the Scriptures?

Mat. 16:16-17: "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for FLESH AND BLOOD HATH NOT REVEALED IT UNTO THEE, BUT MY FATHER which is in heaven."

Jn. 3:27: "A man can receive NOTHING, except it be GIVEN (δίδωμι) him from heaven."

Jn. 6:65: "NO MAN can come unto me, except it were GIVEN (δίδωμι) unto him of my Father."

Acts 11:18: "Then HATH GOD...GRANTED (δίδωμι) REPENTANCE unto life."

Acts 13:48: "And AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED to eternal life believed."

II Tim. 2:25: "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if GOD...WILL GIVE (δίδωμι)...REPENTANCE to the acknowledging of the truth."

I never said God was the Author of sin, I said He foreordains it, brings it to pass, for His own glory; what saith the Scriptures?

Gen. 50:20: "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, TO BRING IT TO PASS, as it is this day, to save much people alive."

I Kgs. 12:19-24: "So Israel REBELLED against the house of David unto this day. And it came to pass, when all Israel heard that Jeroboam was come again, that they sent and called him unto the congregation, and made him king over all Israel: there was none that followed the house of David, but the tribe of Judah only. And when Rehoboam was come to Jerusalem, he assembled all the house of Judah, with the tribe of Benjamin, an hundred and fourscore thousand chosen men, which were warriors, to fight against the house of Israel, to bring the kingdom again to Rehoboam the son of Solomon. But the word of God came unto Shemaiah the man of God, saying, Speak unto Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and unto all the house of Judah and Benjamin, and to the remnant of the people, saying, Thus saith the LORD, Ye shall not go up, nor fight against your brethren the children of Israel: return every man to his house; for THIS THING IS FROM ME."

Job 1:21: "The LORD gave, and THE LORD HATH TAKEN AWAY."

Isa. 53:4: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, SMITTEN OF GOD, and afflicted."

Acts 2:23: "Him, BEING DELIVERED BY THE DETERMINATE COUNSEL AND FOREKNOWLEDGE OF GOD, ye have taken, and by WICKED hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For TO DO WHATSOEVER THY HAND AND THY COUNSEL DETERMINED BEFORE TO BE DONE."

No, Jesus died for the elect only, those whom the Father had chosen, securing our salvation at Calvary, for what saith the Scriptures?

Jn. 10:11, 15: "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for THE SHEEP. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for THE SHEEP."

Eph. 5:25-28: "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved THE CHURCH, and gave himself for IT; That HE MIGHT SANCTIFY (ἁγιάζω) and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

Heb. 2:9-17: ""But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many SONS unto glory, to make the captain of THEIR salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and THEY WHO ARE SANCTIFIED(ἁγιάζω) are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them BRETHREN, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my BRETHREN, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the CHILDREN which God hath given me. Forasmuch then as the CHILDREN are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his BRETHREN, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."

Heb. 10:14: "For by one offering HE HATH PERFECTED (τελειόω) for ever THEM THAT ARE SANCTIFIED (ἁγιάζω)."

I Pet. 1:2: "ELECT according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through SANCTIFICATION (ἁγιασμός) of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

Again, John Piper is not the authority; the Scriptures are. NEVER ONCE in the Exodus narrative is it said that Pharaoh's heart would be hardened apart from God's hardening it. As the Hebrew shows, He hardened it by LEAVING IT IN ITS NATURAL STATE, that of a wicked, evil, totally depraved sinner, for what saith the Scriptures?

Ex. 7:14: "And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is HARDENED (Heb. "kabed") he refuseth to let the people go."

Ex. 17:12: "But Moses' hands were HEAVY (Heb. "kabed")."

Ex. 18:18: "Thou wilt surely wear away, both thou, and this people that is with thee: for this thing is too HEAVY (Heb. "kabed") for thee."

Num. 11:14: "I am not able to bear all this people alone, because it is too HEAVY (Heb. "kabed") for me."

I Kgs. 12:4: "Thy father made our yoke grievous: now therefore make thou the grievous service of thy father, and his HEAVY (Heb. "kabed") yoke which he put upon us, lighter, and we will serve thee."

Psa. 38:4: "For mine INIQUITIES are gone over mine head: as an HEAVY (Heb. "kabed") burden they are too heavy for me."

Isa. 1:4: "Ah sinful nation, a people LADEN (Heb. "kabed") with INIQUITY..."

You accuse God of injustice in reprobation? What saith the Scriptures?

Prov. 16:4: "The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even THE WICKED FOR THE DAY OF EVIL."

Rom. 9:19-22: "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O MAN, WHO ART THOU THAT REPLIEST AGAINST GOD? SHALL THE THING FORMED SAY TO HIM THAT FORMED IT, WHY HAST THOU MADE ME THUS? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, WILLING TO SHEW HIS WRATH, AND TO MAKE HIS POWER KNOWN, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath FITTED TO DESTRUCTION."

No, God does NOT love every single member of the human race, for what saith the Scriptures?

Psa. 5:5: "Thou HATEST all workers of iniquity."

Psa. 11:5: "The wicked and him that loveth violence his soul HATETH."

Psa. 53:4-5: "Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God. There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath DESPISED them."

Rom. 9:13: "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I HATED."

Again, unregenerate people can help a lady across the street, but, regarding that, what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 64:6: "But we are ALL as an UNCLEAN THING, and ALL our RIGHTEOUSNESSES are as FILTHY RAGS."

Tit. 1:15-16: "Unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK REPROBATE."

Again, the "filthy rags" in Isa. 64:6 are MENSTRUAL RAGS, what we would call today a SOILED TAMPON. That's the BEST man can do apart from God's grace!

No, again, "all" in II Cor. 5:14-17 refers to God's elect; what saith the Scriptures?

"For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one DIED FOR ALL, then were ALL dead: And that he DIED FOR ALL, that THEY WHICH LIVE should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which DIED FOR THEM, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know WE no man after the flesh: yea, though WE have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know WE him no more. Therefore if any man be IN CHRIST, he is a NEW CREATURE: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Again, Calvinists do NOT assume regeneration before faith and repentance, we say that man must do those things this very day, this very moment. We say that the ONLY way man does those two things is because God allows them to him, for what saith the Scriptures?

Jn. 6:28-29: "Then said they unto him, What shall WE DO, that WE MIGHT WORK (ἐργάζομαι) the WORKS (ἔργον) of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the WORK (ἔργον) of God, THAT YE BELIEVE on him whom he hath sent."

Phil. 1:6: "Being confident of this very thing, that HE which HATH BEGUN a good WORK (ἔργον) in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."

Jn. 4:10: "Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the GIFT (δωρεά, from δῶρον) OF GOD, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; THOU WOULDEST HAVE ASKED OF HIM, and he would have given thee living water."

Eph. 2:8-10: "For by grace are ye saved through FAITH; and THAT not of yourselves: it is the GIFT (δῶρον) OF GOD: Not of WORKS (ἔργον), lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, CREATED (κτίζω) in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God HATH BEFORE ORDAINED that we should walk in them."

Dr. George Ricker Berry, noted Greek scholar, translates Jn. 5:40 as, "Ye are unwilling to come to me...." And yes, all those who are drawn by the Father irresistibly are elect, saved, for what saith the Scriptures?

Jn. 6:37: "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and HIM THAT COMETH (ἔρχομαι) to me I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT."

Jn. 6:44: "No man can COME (ἔρχομαι) to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."

Again, there are two places of torment for the reprobate, ᾅδης and γέεννα. Christ referred to both in His public ministry, and both are translated as "hell" in the King James Bible. One day ᾅδης will be thrown into γέεννα (Rev. 20:14).

It doesn't surprise me that you devalue Greek scholarship, because it shows Arminianism to be the FALSE DOCTRINE that it is. The New Testament was not written in English, it was written in Koine Greek. Any exegetical study must be conducted from the original language, as something always is lost in any translation. By the way, Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, was a Calvinist; so was John Gresham Machen, another prominent Koine Greek scholar.

No, sir, you are NOT an apostle; those twelve men have accomplished their blessed work on this earth. For you to claim apostleship is proud, arrogant, and UNSCRIPTURAL.

I dare say that what you call the "6 Major Sins of Calvinism", God calls BLASPHEMY on your part.

<Removed impersonal, repeated, copy and pasted, large block of text>
11-22-2009, 04:11 PM
Churchwork

Worshiping God in vain is worshiping God falsely. God is never to be worshiped falsely for that is making a false god out of God. Paul said positively, she "worshiped God" then what follows was she "heard us" (Acts 16.14).

You're assuming into the text she worshiped falsely.

Goes the the opening and she did the attending. Don't assume into the text that regeneration is irresistible. God has His part of opening. She has her part in accepting. Many people don't believe in God before receiving Christ, but Lydia did believe in God. She worshiped God. Don't assume more than that, don't assume that she was doing so vainly. The way Paul spoke was a positive way, for she "heard us".

God creates human beings. Just because God creates human beings doesn't mean we are Totally deprave. All that we have and can be is by His sufficient enabling grace. This doesn't mean we are Totally depraved. Your negative portrayal is not by the Holy Spirit. When man fell from grace, His willfulness was towards sin, but he was not incapable of receiving the gifts of God and believing in Christ. Repentance precedes faith for initial salvation without which you can't be saved. If you are unrepentant and think you have faith for salvation, that is a false faith. God is not going to save you if you stand there and assume you were regenerated without prior repentance and faith. God will not save you into a selfish salvation of "stacking the deck."

I agree with these verses. Nothing about Total depravity or irresistible generation in them. Stop posting verses as though they agree with you, but deal with them specifically.

These verses are saying God uses evil for good not that he is the author of sin which is necessary if everyone is Totally depraved and your god has to irresistibly regenerate them and evilly sends billions to hell without any grace whatsoever. What love is this? This makes your god the author of evil.

The first active hardening was the Pharaoh hardening his own heart first as your own Calvinist brethren admits which contradicts his own faith. This is within God's allowance.

Nowhere do we find reprobation here is by God not providing sufficient grace to all. Why read into the text that which is not there?

You work apart from God's grace because you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Just as you can help an old lady across the street you can obtain the gift of faith if you come to God with an honest heart. You prefer to remain soiled tampon-one of your favorite phrases.

"They which live" are only some of those for whom Jesus died, for Jesus died for all.

"Therefore as by the offense of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Rom. 5.18). "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2.4). All men can be saved "whosoever should believeth" (John 3.16) "to the knowledge of truth" and "unto justification of life." This is a parallelism. Same "all men".

You can't do something if you are Totally depraved. You're Totally unable to, so it would be odd to be commanded to do something you couldn't do it. How sadistic! God provides sufficient for all, not just some. That would be evil. If it is evil for man to behave this way, why would God have morals less than ours? I am glad I don't have to spend eternity in the New City with any Calvinists. That would be Hell.

Many who are drawn to God "draw back unto perdition" (Heb. 10.39). Certainly all that come to God must be drawn, but we don't read in John 6.44 that all drawn do come to God. All that are given in verse 37 do come, but it doesn't say all that are drawn come. Read the text with humility, without assuming a thing.

Quote:

Again, there are two places of torment for the reprobate, ᾅδης and γέεννα. Christ referred to both in His public ministry, and both are translated as "hell" in the King James Bible. One day ᾅδης will be thrown into γέεννα (Rev. 20:14).

Hell can't be thrown into Hell. That's silly. That's like saying I am going to put the dish waster instead of the dishes into the dish waster. There are not two Hells anymore than there are two 3rd Heavens. Hades is thrown into Hell. KJV got it wrong. ASV, RSV, NLT, NIV, etc. corrected this mistake in the KJV. You can see the problem with being a KJV onlyist for you will rationalize falsely by making an idol out of King James.

Quote:

It doesn't surprise me that you devalue Greek scholarship, because it shows Arminianism to be the FALSE DOCTRINE that it is. The New Testament was not written in English, it was written in Koine Greek. Any exegetical study must be conducted from the original language, as something always is lost in any translation. By the way, Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, was a Calvinist; so was John Gresham Machen, another prominent Koine Greek scholar.

I appreciate the Greek, that is not the issue; the issue is you can't get the Greek to agree with you without reading into it that which is not there. Time and again this is has been shown.

Quote:

No, sir, you are NOT an apostle; those twelve men have accomplished their blessed work on this earth. For you to claim apostleship is proud, arrogant, and UNSCRIPTURAL.

The Apostles are for today which I am one and you couldn't show otherwise, after all, you are not even born-again, because you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Paul was an Apostle and he was not one of the 12, thus by your reasoning he is not an Apostle. You are accusing one of the mightiest workers for the Church. You also accuse women, for Junias was an Apostle, a notable one at that, and there were "all the Apostles" in addition to the "12 Apostles". Every century there have been Apostles. You deny Church history and the call of Eph. 4.11 of the Apostles during and for every church period, for this is still the mystery age of the Church.

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers" (Eph. 4.11). The role of the Apostles is still today. Who could even consider you a Christian that you deny God's workers in the Ministry of the Work for the Church. Of course, are a false Christian, so that make sense.

"Thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars" (Rev. 2.2). For there to be those who are false Apostles implies that there are Apostles during John's day around 95 AD when he wrote Revelation after all the original Apostles had died.

Quote:

I dare say that what you call the "6 Major Sins of Calvinism", God calls BLASPHEMY on your part.

What you consider holy these 6 major sins, God considers unholy.

Who are these false tares who try to look like the saved wheat, the unsaved swine with cloven hooves but don't chew their cud? Who are they who say to the Lord, didn't we work in your name? for which He responds, those who say Lord, Lord, He never knew you Brian. To come so close to Lord but still reject Him is a very sad thing indeed. It would have better that you never knew God (2 Pet. 2.21) since it will be much more difficult for you to give your life to Christ now, and at worse, your permanent stay in Hell will be worse than most.

My prayers go out to you that may you yet one day repent as a helpless sinners to the cross as you are not Totally depraved to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior. Amen.
11-23-2009, 11:55 AM
briancook007

No, worshiping God in vain is exactly that, worshiping HIM in vain, NOT worshiping a false god. That assertion on your part is eisegesis; you're groping. In both Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7 Christ is quoting Isa. 29:13; what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 29:13: ""Wherefore THE LORD said, Forasmuch as this people draw near ME with their mouth, and with their lips do honour ME, but have removed their heart far from ME, and their fear toward ME is taught by the precept of men."

Mat. 15:9: "But IN VAIN they do worship (σέβω) ME, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Mk. 7:7: "Howbeit IN VAIN do they worship (σέβω) ME, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Acts 16:14: " And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped (σέβω) GOD, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Again, you're evading. Your argument is predicated on Lydia's having been saved before Acts 16:14, that because she worshiped (σέβω) God, that that proves she was a believer. What saith the Scriptures?

Mt. 15:9: "But IN VAIN they do worship (σέβω) me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Mk. 7:7: "Howbeit IN VAIN do they worship (σέβω) me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Jn. 8:43, 47: "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot HEAR (ἀκούω) my word. He that is of God HEARETH (ἀκούω) God's words: ye therefore HEAR (ἀκούω) them not, because ye are not of God."

Jn. 1:13: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God."

II Cor. 5:17: "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new CREATURE (κτίσις, "CREATION"): old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Acts 13:48: "And when the Gentiles HEARD THIS (ἀκούω), they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED to eternal life BELIEVED."

Mk. 4:9: "And he said unto them, He that hath ears TO HEAR (ἀκούω), LET HIM HEAR (ἀκούω)."

Jn. 6:44-45: "No man CAN (δύναμαι) come to me, except the Father which hath sent me DRAW (ἕλκω) him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore THAT HATH HEARD (ἀκούω), and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

Acts 16:14: "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped (σέβω) God, HEARD (ἀκούω) us: whose heart THE LORD opened (διανοίγω, "to open thoroughly"), THAT SHE ATTENDED (προσέχω) unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Your position is that Lydia was saved before Acts 16:14, that because she worshiped (σέβω) God, that that worship proves she was a believer; the Word of God says that is NOT SO. And no, Paul didn't say anything there at all; Luke wrote the Book of Acts.

God opened (διανοίγω) her heart, He regenerated her, thus producing the effectual response (προσέχω) to the Gospel, faith and repentance; such was the case in Acts 13:48. Lydia was baptized immediately, showing that this was her salvation experience, just as the Philippian jailor was baptized immediately upon his salvation experience (Acts 16:30-33). You wrote, "God has His part of opening. She has her part in accepting." That comment shows Arminianism to be the man-centered theology, the HERESY, that it is.

You still deny total inability? Again, the Greek word δύναμαι, "to be able", is found in Jn. 3:27, Jn. 6:44, and Jn. 6:65. What saith the Scriptures?

Jn. 3:27 (George Ricker Berry Interlinear Greek-English New Testament translation): "A man IS ABLE to receive NOTHING unless it be given to him from the heaven."

Jn. 3:27 (Young's Literal Translation): "A man IS NOT ABLE to receive ANYTHING, if it may not have been given him from the heaven."

Jn. 3:27 (Philip W. Comfort New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament): "A man IS NOT ABLE to receive ANYTHING unless it has been given to him from Heaven."

Jn. 6:44 (George Ricker Berry Interlinear Greek-English New Testament translation): "NO one IS ABLE to come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise up him at the last day."

Jn. 6:44 (Young's Literal Translation): "NO one IS ABLE to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day."

Jn. 6:44 (Philip W. Comfort New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament): "NO one IS ABLE to come to me unless the Father having sent me should draw him, and I will raise up him in the last day."

Jn. 6:65 (George Ricker Berry Interlinear Greek-English New Testament translation): "NO one IS ABLE to come to me unless it be given to him from my Father."

Jn. 6:65 (Young's Literal Translation): "NO one IS ABLE to come unto me, if it may not have been given him from my Father."

Jn. 6:65: (Philip W. Comfort New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament): "NO one IS ABLE to come to me unless it has been given to him from the Father."

You still say there are no verses for total depravity or irresistible grace? What saith the Scriptures?

Jer. 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? THEN MAY YE ALSO DO GOOD, that are accustomed to do evil."

Jer. 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately WICKED: who can know it?"

Psa. 9:17: "The wicked shall be turned into HELL...."

Psa. 10:4: "The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in ALL HIS THOUGHTS."

"Psa. 58:3: "The wicked are estranged FROM THE WOMB: they go astray AS SOON AS THEY BE BORN, speaking lies."

Eph. 2:1-3: "And you hath he quickened, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were BY NATURE the children of wrath, even as others."

Job 15:16: "How much more ABOMINABLE and FILTHY is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?"

Isa. 1:5-6: "The WHOLE head is sick, and the WHOLE heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is NO soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Isa. 64:6: "But we are ALL as an UNCLEAN THING, and ALL our RIGHTEOUSNESSES are as FILTHY RAGS."

Rom. 3:10-11: "As it is written, There is none RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE: There is NONE that understandeth (συνίημι), there is NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD."

Mat. 16:16-17: "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for FLESH AND BLOOD HATH NOT REVEALED IT UNTO THEE, BUT MY FATHER which is in heaven."

Jn. 6:44: "NO man CAN come to me, EXCEPT the Father which hath sent me DRAW (ἕλκω) him."

Jn. 18:10: "Then Simon Peter having a sword DREW (ἕλκω) it...."

Jn. 21:6: "They cast therefore, and now they were not able TO DRAW (ἕλκω) it for the multitude of fishes."

Acts 21:30: "And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and DREW (ἕλκω) him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut."

Eze. 36:26-27: "A NEW HEART also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the STONY HEART out of your flesh, and I will give you an HEART OF FLESH. And I will put my spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

Acts 16:14: "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart THE LORD opened, THAT SHE ATTENDED(προσέχω)unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Jn. 3:27: "A man can receive NOTHING, except it be GIVEN (δίδωμι) him from heaven."

Jn. 6:65: "NO MAN can come unto me, except it were GIVEN (δίδωμι) unto him of my Father."

Acts 11:18: "Then HATH GOD...GRANTED (δίδωμι) REPENTANCE unto life."

Acts 13:48: "And AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED to eternal life believed."

II Tim. 2:25: "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if GOD...WILL GIVE (δίδωμι)...REPENTANCE to the acknowledging of the truth."

"What love is this?", you ask? What saith the Scriptures?

Rom. 9:16-22: "So then IT IS NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH, NOR OF HIM THAT RUNNETH, BUT OF GOD THAT SHEWETH MERCY. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore HATH HE MERCY ON WHOM HE WILL HAVE MERCY, and WHOM HE WILL HE HARDENETH. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O MAN, WHO ART THOU THAT REPLIEST AGAINST GOD? SHALL THE THING FORMED SAY TO HIM THAT FORMED IT, WHY HAST THOU MADE ME THUS? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, WILLING TO SHEW HIS WRATH, AND TO MAKE HIS POWER KNOWN, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath FITTED TO DESTRUCTION."

Again, Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that "fitted to destruction" is in the PASSIVE VOICE, which means that the subject is being ACTED UPON, and has NOTHING to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it.

Again, John Piper is NOT the authority; the Scriptures are. NEVER ONCE in the Exodus narrative is it said that Pharaoh's heart would be hardened apart from GOD'S hardening it. As the Hebrew shows, He hardened it by LEAVING IT IN ITS NATURAL STATE, that of a wicked, evil, totally depraved sinner, for what saith the Scriptures?

Dan. 4:35: "And ALL the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as NOTHING: and HE DOETH ACCORDING TO HIS WILL in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and NONE CAN STAY HIS HAND, or say unto him, What doest thou?"

Ex. 3:19: "And I AM SURE that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand."

Ex. 4:21: "And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I WILL HARDEN HIS HEART, that he shall not let the people go."

Ex. 9:17: "And in very deed FOR THIS CAUSE have I raised thee up, for TO SHEW IN THEE MY POWER; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth."

Rom. 9:22: "What if God, WILLING TO SHEW HIS WRATH, AND TO MAKE HIS POWER KNOWN, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath FITTED TO DESTRUCTION."

Ex. 7:14: "And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is HARDENED (Heb. "kabed") he refuseth to let the people go."

Ex. 17:12: "But Moses' hands were HEAVY (Heb. "kabed")."

Ex. 18:18: "Thou wilt surely wear away, both thou, and this people that is with thee: for this thing is too HEAVY (Heb. "kabed") for thee."

Num. 11:14: "I am not able to bear all this people alone, because it is too HEAVY (Heb. "kabed") for me."

I Kgs. 12:4: "Thy father made our yoke grievous: now therefore make thou the grievous service of thy father, and his HEAVY (Heb. "kabed") yoke which he put upon us, lighter, and we will serve thee."

Psa. 38:4: "For mine INIQUITIES are gone over mine head: as an HEAVY (Heb. "kabed") burden they are too heavy for me."

Isa. 1:4: "Ah sinful nation, a people LADEN (Heb. "kabed") WITH INIQUITY..."

You dare to question God's holiness and justice in His sovereign foreordination of sin? What saith the Scriptures?

I Jn. 1:5: "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."

Jos. 11:20: "For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses."

I Sam. 16:23: " And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him."

II Sam. 16:8-11: "The LORD hath returned upon thee all the blood of the house of Saul, in whose stead thou hast reigned; and the LORD hath delivered the kingdom into the hand of Absalom thy son: and, behold, thou art taken in thy mischief, because thou art a bloody man. Then said Abishai the son of Zeruiah unto the king, Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? let me go over, I pray thee, and take off his head. And the king said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah? so let him curse, because the LORD hath said unto him, Curse David. Who shall then say, Wherefore hast thou done so? And David said to Abishai, and to all his servants, Behold, my son, which came forth of my bowels, seeketh my life: how much more now may this Benjamite do it? let him alone, and let him curse; for the LORD hath bidden him."

I Kgs. 22:23: "Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee."

II Kgs. 24:2-3: "And the LORD sent against him bands of the Chaldees, and bands of the Syrians, and bands of the Moabites, and bands of the children of Ammon, and sent them against Judah to destroy it, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake by his servants the prophets. Surely at the commandment of the LORD came this upon Judah, to remove them out of his sight, for the sins of Manasseh, according to all that he did."

II Chr. 33:11: "Wherefore the LORD brought upon them the captains of the host of the king of Assyria, which took Manasseh among the thorns, and bound him with fetters, and carried him to Babylon."

II Chr. 36:16-17: "But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy. Therefore he brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: he gave them all into his hand."

Isa. 5:25-29: "Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still. And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly: None shall be weary nor stumble among them; none shall slumber nor sleep; neither shall the girdle of their loins be loosed, nor the latchet of their shoes be broken: Whose arrows are sharp, and all their bows bent, their horses' hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind: Their roaring shall be like a lion, they shall roar like young lions: yea, they shall roar, and lay hold of the prey, and shall carry it away safe, and none shall deliver it."

Isa. 10:5-7, 15: "O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation. I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few. Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood."

Isa. 29:16: "Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?"

Jer. 25:9-12: "Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations."

Lam. 1:17: "Zion spreadeth forth her hands, and there is none to comfort her: the LORD hath commanded concerning Jacob, that his adversaries should be round about him: Jerusalem is as a menstruous woman among them."

Amos 9:9: "For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth."

Isa. 53:4: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."

Lk. 22:22: "And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!"

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 3:18: "But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

Acts 19:9: "But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus."

I Pet. 2:8: "And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."

Rev. 17:17: "For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."

Again, unregenerate people can do charitable things, but what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 64:6: "But we are ALL as an UNCLEAN THING, and ALL our RIGHTEOUSNESSES are as FILTHY RAGS."

Tit. 1:15-16: "Unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK REPROBATE."

Again, the "filthy rags" in Isa. 64:6 are MENSTRUAL RAGS, what we would call today a SOILED TAMPON. That's the BEST man can do apart from God's grace!

No, Jesus died for the elect only, securing our salvation at Calvary. Again, "all" in II Cor. 5:14-17 refers to God's elect, for what saith the Scriptures?

II Cor. 5:14-17: "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one DIED FOR ALL, then were ALL dead: And that he DIED FOR ALL, that THEY WHICH LIVE should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which DIED FOR THEM, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know WE no man after the flesh: yea, though WE have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know WE him no more. Therefore if any man be IN CHRIST, he is a NEW CREATURE: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Jn. 10:11, 15: "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for THE SHEEP. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for THE SHEEP."

Eph. 5:25-28: "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved THE CHURCH, and gave himself for IT; That HE MIGHT SANCTIFY (ἁγιάζω) and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

Heb. 2:9-17: ""But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many SONS unto glory, to make the captain of THEIR salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and THEY WHO ARE SANCTIFIED(ἁγιάζω) are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them BRETHREN, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my BRETHREN, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the CHILDREN which God hath given me. Forasmuch then as the CHILDREN are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his BRETHREN, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."

Heb. 10:14: "For by one offering HE HATH PERFECTED (τελειόω) for ever THEM THAT ARE SANCTIFIED (ἁγιάζω)."

I Pet. 1:2: "ELECT according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through SANCTIFICATION (ἁγιασμός) of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

In Rom. 5:15 Paul changes the object of his discussion to BELIEVERS, for what saith the Scriptures (Rom. 5:15-19)?

"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto MANY. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more THEY WHICH RECEIVE ABUNDANCE OF GRACE AND OF THE GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be MADE RIGHTEOUS."

How do the Scriptures, a JEWISH Book, define the term "all men" in Rom. 5:18 and I Tim. 2:4? How do they define "all" in I Tim. 2:6? What saith the Scriptures?

Acts 9:15: "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before THE GENTILES, and KINGS, and THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL."

Acts 22:15: "For thou shalt be his witness unto ALL MEN of what thou hast seen and heard."

Rom. 2:9-11: "Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of THE GENTILE; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to THE GENTILE: For there is NO RESPECT OF PERSONS with God."

Rom. 10:12: "For there is no difference between the Jew and the GREEK: for the same Lord over ALL is rich unto all that call upon him."

I Tim. 2:1-7: "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL MEN; For KINGS, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, TO BE TESTIFIED IN DUE TIME. WHEREUNTO I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of THE GENTILES in faith and verity."

Who repents and believes? What saith the Scriptures?

Mat. 16:16-17: "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for FLESH AND BLOOD HATH NOT REVEALED IT UNTO THEE, BUT MY FATHER which is in heaven."

Jn. 3:27: "A man can receive NOTHING, except it be GIVEN (δίδωμι) him from heaven."

Jn. 6:65: "NO MAN can come unto me, except it were GIVEN (δίδωμι) unto him of my Father."

Acts 11:18: "Then HATH GOD...GRANTED (δίδωμι) REPENTANCE unto life."

II Tim. 2:25: "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if GOD...WILL GIVE (δίδωμι)...REPENTANCE to the acknowledging of the truth."

Acts 13:48: "And AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED to eternal life BELIEVED."

Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that Acts 13:48b is in the PASSIVE VOICE, which means that the subject is being ACTED UPON, and has NOTHING to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it.

You continue to try to understand God completely, to deny reprobation because it makes no sense to the carnal mind, your mind. What saith the Scripture (Isa. 55:9)? "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

You wrote, "I am glad I don't have to spend eternity in the New City with any Calvinists. That would be Hell." Again, be careful what you wish for, Arminian; God may give it to you.

The Greek word in Heb. 10:39 is ὑποστολή, a different word than is used in John chapter 6. You wrote, "All that are given in verse 37 do come, but it doesn't say all that are drawn come." You are WRONG, your logic is faulty; ALL those who COME are DRAWN by God irresistibly, and they are ELECT, SAVED, for what saith the Scriptures?

Jn. 6:37: "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and HIM THAT COMETH (ἔρχομαι) to me I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT."

Jn. 6:44: "No man can COME (ἔρχομαι) to me, except the Father which hath sent me DRAW (ἕλκω) him: and I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY."

All those who come (ἔρχομαι) are drawn (ἕλκω), and they all are raised up at the last day, SAVED, ELECT.

I am not a King James Only advocate, I merely pointed out that both ᾅδης and γέεννα are translated as "hell" in the King James Bible. They are both places of TORMENT (Lk. 16:23, Mk. 9:43) for the reprobate, and one day ᾅδης will be thrown into γέεννα (Rev. 20:14).

No, sir, that IS the issue. The Greek has shown your Arminian FALSE DOCTRINE to be the HERESY that it is; THAT is why you downplay it. You never responded to the Berry, Young, and Comfort translations of Jn. 3:27, Jn. 6:44, and Jn. 6:65, because they prove total inability.

No, sir, you are NOT an apostle; for you to claim that sacred office is proud, arrogant, and UNSCRIPTURAL. Paul was a legitimate apostle, He was God's replacement for Judas, "the apostle of the Gentiles" (Rom. 11:13), chosen by God Himself (Acts 9:1-15). And no, no woman ever was an apostle, for it is written (I Cor. 14:34), "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law," and it is written again (I Tim. 2:11-12), "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." The Apostle Paul said He had seen Christ (I Cor. 9:1). Have you seen Him? If you say you have, you're a liar, for it is written (I Pet. 1:8), "Whom having not seen, ye love." Yes, Rev. 2:2 indeed does say, "Thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars." John must have had YOU in mind.

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11-23-2009, 04:12 PM
Churchwork

Stop sinning the sin of Calvinism

Quote:

Originally Posted by briancook007

No, worshiping God in vain is exactly that, worshiping HIM in vain, NOT worshiping a false god. That assertion on your part is eisegesis; you're groping. In both Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7 Christ is quoting Isa. 29:13; what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 29:13: ""Wherefore THE LORD said, Forasmuch as this people draw near ME with their mouth, and with their lips do honour ME, but have removed their heart far from ME, and their fear toward ME is taught by the precept of men."

Mat. 15:9: "But IN VAIN they do worship (σέβω) ME, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Mk. 7:7: "Howbeit IN VAIN do they worship (σέβω) ME, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Acts 16:14: " And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped (σέβω) GOD, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Worshiping God in vain is not the same thing as worshiping God. To worship falsely is to effectively worship God like some false god.

You shouldn't accuse Lydia of worshiping in vain, for she "worshiped God, heard us."

Worship can be true and false, not just false.

Quote:

Again, you're evading. Your argument is predicated on Lydia's having been saved before Acts 16:14, that because she worshiped (σέβω) God, that that proves she was a believer. What saith the Scriptures?

Mt. 15:9: "But IN VAIN they do worship (σέβω) me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Mk. 7:7: "Howbeit IN VAIN do they worship (σέβω) me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Jn. 8:43, 47: "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot HEAR (ἀκούω) my word. He that is of God HEARETH (ἀκούω) God's words: ye therefore HEAR (ἀκούω) them not, because ye are not of God."

Jn. 1:13: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God."

II Cor. 5:17: "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new CREATURE (κτίσις, "CREATION"): old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Acts 13:48: "And when the Gentiles HEARD THIS (ἀκούω), they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED to eternal life BELIEVED."

Mk. 4:9: "And he said unto them, He that hath ears TO HEAR (ἀκούω), LET HIM HEAR (ἀκούω)."

Jn. 6:44-45: "No man CAN (δύναμαι) come to me, except the Father which hath sent me DRAW (ἕλκω) him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore THAT HATH HEARD (ἀκούω), and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

Acts 16:14: "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped (σέβω) God, HEARD (ἀκούω) us: whose heart THE LORD opened (διανοίγω, "to open thoroughly"), THAT SHE ATTENDED (προσέχω) unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Lydia "worshiped God, heard us"; so this is not in vain. Even if she wasn't a believer in God before receiving Christ, that still would not demand irresistible regeneration so your argument fails.

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Your position is that Lydia was saved before Acts 16:14, that because she worshiped (σέβω) God, that that worship proves she was a believer; the Word of God says that is NOT SO. And no, Paul didn't say anything there at all; Luke wrote the Book of Acts.

God opened (διανοίγω) her heart, He regenerated her, thus producing the effectual response (προσέχω) to the Gospel, faith and repentance; such was the case in Acts 13:48. Lydia was baptized immediately, showing that this was her salvation experience, just as the Philippian jailor was baptized immediately upon his salvation experience (Acts 16:30-33). You wrote, "God has His part of opening. She has her part in accepting." That comment shows Arminianism to be the man-centered theology, the HERESY, that it is.

"She attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul" (Acts 16.14), but you said "Paul didn't say anything there at all"?

Just like people in the OT were saved who believed in God and the Messiah had not yet come, Lydia also worshiped the One True God which is why she accepted Christ so readily. What she received in Christ was regeneration of her spirit for the Holy Spirit to indwell. This is regeneration: born-again, the new birth. You're missing the fact that regeneration for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (now that the veil is rent) does mean those in the OT were going to Hell because Jesus had not arrived yet. Otherwise you become like Satan the great accuser who accuses the brethren day and night (Rev. 12.10). I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.

That God enjoys our participation in His will is not man centered. "Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent, and believe in the gospel'" (Mark 1.15) "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out" (Acts 3.19). Man-centered is assuming one is regenerated in Calvinism without having had to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Baptism does follow being born-again, but does not mean Lydia was not a believer in God like David or Jeremiah or Isaiah or Abel were. Man-centered ideas say things like, women can't be Apostles or Baptism must follow immediately after the new birth even though the person may not yet be ready to be baptized, imposing constricting and invasive rules by men on people to control them unethically. That will never do.

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You still deny total inability? Again, the Greek word δύναμαι, "to be able", is found in Jn. 3:27, Jn. 6:44, and Jn. 6:65. What saith the Scriptures?

Jn. 3:27 (George Ricker Berry Interlinear Greek-English New Testament translation): "A man IS ABLE to receive NOTHING unless it be given to him from the heaven."

Jn. 3:27 (Young's Literal Translation): "A man IS NOT ABLE to receive ANYTHING, if it may not have been given him from the heaven."

Jn. 3:27 (Philip W. Comfort New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament): "A man IS NOT ABLE to receive ANYTHING unless it has been given to him from Heaven."

Jn. 6:44 (George Ricker Berry Interlinear Greek-English New Testament translation): "NO one IS ABLE to come to me unless the Father who sent me draw him, and I will raise up him at the last day."

Jn. 6:44 (Young's Literal Translation): "NO one IS ABLE to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day."

Jn. 6:44 (Philip W. Comfort New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament): "NO one IS ABLE to come to me unless the Father having sent me should draw him, and I will raise up him in the last day."

Jn. 6:65 (George Ricker Berry Interlinear Greek-English New Testament translation): "NO one IS ABLE to come to me unless it be given to him from my Father."

Jn. 6:65 (Young's Literal Translation): "NO one IS ABLE to come unto me, if it may not have been given him from my Father."

Jn. 6:65: (Philip W. Comfort New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament): "NO one IS ABLE to come to me unless it has been given to him from the Father."

These verses show God is the Great Enabler not that man is Totally depraved. Since you can't find anything in these verses that teaches Total depravity, but you must read into the text, realize this idol you have created for yourself is what you use to keep yourself from truly repenting and believing in Christ to be regenerated.

God's grace is sufficient for all. Your god's grace is not. He provides sufficient enabling grace to all whether by common or special grace of the gospel.

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You still say there are no verses for total depravity or irresistible grace? What saith the Scriptures?

Jer. 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? THEN MAY YE ALSO DO GOOD, that are accustomed to do evil."

Jer. 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately WICKED: who can know it?"

Psa. 9:17: "The wicked shall be turned into HELL...."

Psa. 10:4: "The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in ALL HIS THOUGHTS."

"Psa. 58:3: "The wicked are estranged FROM THE WOMB: they go astray AS SOON AS THEY BE BORN, speaking lies."

Eph. 2:1-3: "And you hath he quickened, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were BY NATURE the children of wrath, even as others."

Job 15:16: "How much more ABOMINABLE and FILTHY is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?"

Isa. 1:5-6: "The WHOLE head is sick, and the WHOLE heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is NO soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Isa. 64:6: "But we are ALL as an UNCLEAN THING, and ALL our RIGHTEOUSNESSES are as FILTHY RAGS."

Rom. 3:10-11: "As it is written, There is none RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE: There is NONE that understandeth (συνίημι), there is NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD."

Mat. 16:16-17: "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for FLESH AND BLOOD HATH NOT REVEALED IT UNTO THEE, BUT MY FATHER which is in heaven."

Jn. 6:44: "NO man CAN come to me, EXCEPT the Father which hath sent me DRAW (ἕλκω) him."

Jn. 18:10: "Then Simon Peter having a sword DREW (ἕλκω) it...."

Jn. 21:6: "They cast therefore, and now they were not able TO DRAW (ἕλκω) it for the multitude of fishes."

Acts 21:30: "And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and DREW (ἕλκω) him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut."

Eze. 36:26-27: "A NEW HEART also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the STONY HEART out of your flesh, and I will give you an HEART OF FLESH. And I will put my spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

Acts 16:14: "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart THE LORD opened, THAT SHE ATTENDED(προσέχω)unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Jn. 3:27: "A man can receive NOTHING, except it be GIVEN (δίδωμι) him from heaven."

Jn. 6:65: "NO MAN can come unto me, except it were GIVEN (δίδωμι) unto him of my Father."

Acts 11:18: "Then HATH GOD...GRANTED (δίδωμι) REPENTANCE unto life."

Acts 13:48: "And AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED to eternal life believed."

II Tim. 2:25: "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if GOD...WILL GIVE (δίδωμι)...REPENTANCE to the acknowledging of the truth."

Being wicked, unrepentant and disobedient in these verses do not imply Total inability but willfulness and propensity. God provides the grace to enable us to receive Him, does not suggest irresistible regeneration for some and preterition for others. What you would need for your faith to be true is a verse that says God sends people to Hell from birth without recourse and saves people irresistibly without any right to accept it. And you would have to explain so much pleading by God, commading us to believe on Him by faith, and how God can contradict Himself with a secret will that conflicts with a revealed will. That's just for starters. What an evil tyrant your god is, very much like Hitler who sends the Jews to the gas chambers from birth without recourse. What love is this?

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"What love is this?", you ask? What saith the Scriptures?

Rom. 9:16-22: "So then IT IS NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH, NOR OF HIM THAT RUNNETH, BUT OF GOD THAT SHEWETH MERCY. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore HATH HE MERCY ON WHOM HE WILL HAVE MERCY, and WHOM HE WILL HE HARDENETH. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O MAN, WHO ART THOU THAT REPLIEST AGAINST GOD? SHALL THE THING FORMED SAY TO HIM THAT FORMED IT, WHY HAST THOU MADE ME THUS? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, WILLING TO SHEW HIS WRATH, AND TO MAKE HIS POWER KNOWN, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath FITTED TO DESTRUCTION."

I didn't ask, What love is this in Romans 9? I asked, What love is this that God sends people to Hell from birth without any opportunity for salvation and must irresistibly regeneration someone like a robot? What an impotent and pathetic god the god of Calvinism is! Such a god is not worthy of anyone's worship.

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Again, Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that "fitted to destruction" is in the PASSIVE VOICE, which means that the subject is being ACTED UPON, and has NOTHING to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it.

When God renders someone fitted for destruction, that's His call, which doesn't imply or necessitate the person had no choice in the matter to receive God's saving grace.

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Again, John Piper is NOT the authority; the Scriptures are. NEVER ONCE in the Exodus narrative is it said that Pharaoh's heart would be hardened apart from GOD'S hardening it. As the Hebrew shows, He hardened it by LEAVING IT IN ITS NATURAL STATE, that of a wicked, evil, totally depraved sinner, for what saith the Scriptures?

Dan. 4:35: "And ALL the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as NOTHING: and HE DOETH ACCORDING TO HIS WILL in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and NONE CAN STAY HIS HAND, or say unto him, What doest thou?"

Ex. 3:19: "And I AM SURE that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand."

Ex. 4:21: "And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I WILL HARDEN HIS HEART, that he shall not let the people go."

Ex. 9:17: "And in very deed FOR THIS CAUSE have I raised thee up, for TO SHEW IN THEE MY POWER; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth."

Rom. 9:22: "What if God, WILLING TO SHEW HIS WRATH, AND TO MAKE HIS POWER KNOWN, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath FITTED TO DESTRUCTION."

Ex. 7:14: "And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is HARDENED (Heb. "kabed") he refuseth to let the people go."

Ex. 17:12: "But Moses' hands were HEAVY (Heb. "kabed")."

Ex. 18:18: "Thou wilt surely wear away, both thou, and this people that is with thee: for this thing is too HEAVY (Heb. "kabed") for thee."

Num. 11:14: "I am not able to bear all this people alone, because it is too HEAVY (Heb. "kabed") for me."

I Kgs. 12:4: "Thy father made our yoke grievous: now therefore make thou the grievous service of thy father, and his HEAVY (Heb. "kabed") yoke which he put upon us, lighter, and we will serve thee."

Psa. 38:4: "For mine INIQUITIES are gone over mine head: as an HEAVY (Heb. "kabed") burden they are too heavy for me."

Isa. 1:4: "Ah sinful nation, a people LADEN (Heb. "kabed") WITH INIQUITY..."

There is nothing that any of us can do without God's permission just as the Pharaoh hardening his own heart first is within God's provision and providential hand. It doesn't mean God irresistibly made him to harden his heart first, for then God would be the author of evil like the god of Calvinism. Your own Calvinist brethren, though contradicting himself, was right, the first active hardening was the Pharaoh hardening his own heart first. Subsequent hardening were done by God. There are two kinds of verses of hardening for the Pharaoh. There are verses that say he hardened his own heart and there are verses that say God hardened his heart. The first active instance is the Pharaoh hardening his own heart first. Thus, destroying the heart of Calvinism.

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You dare to question God's holiness and justice in His sovereign foreordination of sin? What saith the Scriptures?

I Jn. 1:5: "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."

Jos. 11:20: "For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses."

I Sam. 16:23: " And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him."

II Sam. 16:8-11: "The LORD hath returned upon thee all the blood of the house of Saul, in whose stead thou hast reigned; and the LORD hath delivered the kingdom into the hand of Absalom thy son: and, behold, thou art taken in thy mischief, because thou art a bloody man. Then said Abishai the son of Zeruiah unto the king, Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? let me go over, I pray thee, and take off his head. And the king said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah? so let him curse, because the LORD hath said unto him, Curse David. Who shall then say, Wherefore hast thou done so? And David said to Abishai, and to all his servants, Behold, my son, which came forth of my bowels, seeketh my life: how much more now may this Benjamite do it? let him alone, and let him curse; for the LORD hath bidden him."

I Kgs. 22:23: "Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee."

II Kgs. 24:2-3: "And the LORD sent against him bands of the Chaldees, and bands of the Syrians, and bands of the Moabites, and bands of the children of Ammon, and sent them against Judah to destroy it, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake by his servants the prophets. Surely at the commandment of the LORD came this upon Judah, to remove them out of his sight, for the sins of Manasseh, according to all that he did."

II Chr. 33:11: "Wherefore the LORD brought upon them the captains of the host of the king of Assyria, which took Manasseh among the thorns, and bound him with fetters, and carried him to Babylon."

II Chr. 36:16-17: "But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy. Therefore he brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: he gave them all into his hand."

Isa. 5:25-29: "Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still. And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly: None shall be weary nor stumble among them; none shall slumber nor sleep; neither shall the girdle of their loins be loosed, nor the latchet of their shoes be broken: Whose arrows are sharp, and all their bows bent, their horses' hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind: Their roaring shall be like a lion, they shall roar like young lions: yea, they shall roar, and lay hold of the prey, and shall carry it away safe, and none shall deliver it."

Isa. 10:5-7, 15: "O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation. I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few. Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood."

Isa. 29:16: "Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?"

Jer. 25:9-12: "Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations."

Lam. 1:17: "Zion spreadeth forth her hands, and there is none to comfort her: the LORD hath commanded concerning Jacob, that his adversaries should be round about him: Jerusalem is as a menstruous woman among them."

Amos 9:9: "For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth."

Isa. 53:4: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."

Lk. 22:22: "And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!"

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 3:18: "But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

Acts 19:9: "But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus."

I Pet. 2:8: "And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."

Rev. 17:17: "For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."

I don't question God's handling of sin. I reject your god for being the cause of sin since he sends people to Hell without recourse and is limited in having to irresistibly impose salvation without giving the person the choice to receive the gift of faith if she or he comes to Him with an honest heart. Something you are quite unfamiliar with! Where in any of these verses can you find your god to be true as the author of sin and evil? Since you don't deal with any verse specifically, but can only reference verses vaguely, therein lies the problem. They say the Devil is in the details to prevent you from looking specifically at a verse unassumingly.

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Again, unregenerate people can do charitable things, but what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 64:6: "But we are ALL as an UNCLEAN THING, and ALL our RIGHTEOUSNESSES are as FILTHY RAGS."

Tit. 1:15-16: "Unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK REPROBATE."

We are all fallen, born into sin, full of willfulness, but where in these verses do we read Total inability and the insufficiency of God's grace to us all to give us all the opportunity to be saved?

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Again, the "filthy rags" in Isa. 64:6 are MENSTRUAL RAGS, what we would call today a SOILED TAMPON. That's the BEST man can do apart from God's grace!

Where's the Total inability in Isaiah 64.6? We are still made in God's image with free will. That will never change.

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No, Jesus died for the elect only, securing our salvation at Calvary. Again, "all" in II Cor. 5:14-17 refers to God's elect, for what saith the Scriptures?

II Cor. 5:14-17: "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one DIED FOR ALL, then were ALL dead: And that he DIED FOR ALL, that THEY WHICH LIVE should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which DIED FOR THEM, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know WE no man after the flesh: yea, though WE have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know WE him no more. Therefore if any man be IN CHRIST, he is a NEW CREATURE: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Jn. 10:11, 15: "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for THE SHEEP. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for THE SHEEP."

Eph. 5:25-28: "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved THE CHURCH, and gave himself for IT; That HE MIGHT SANCTIFY (ἁγιάζω) and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

Heb. 2:9-17: ""But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many SONS unto glory, to make the captain of THEIR salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and THEY WHO ARE SANCTIFIED(ἁγιάζω) are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them BRETHREN, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my BRETHREN, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the CHILDREN which God hath given me. Forasmuch then as the CHILDREN are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his BRETHREN, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."

Heb. 10:14: "For by one offering HE HATH PERFECTED (τελειόω) for ever THEM THAT ARE SANCTIFIED (ἁγιάζω)."

I Pet. 1:2: "ELECT according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through SANCTIFICATION (ἁγιασμός) of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

Jesus died for the sins the whole world in 2 Cor. 5.14: "if one DIED FOR ALL, then were ALL dead [sums up all in death]: And that he DIED FOR ALL [for the whole world]" then out of which, those who repent and believe in Christ are "THEY WHICH LIVE." Your god doesn't have the love, power or ability to die for the sins of the whole world so anyone may be saved whosoever is willing, but he is the author of evil, Satan no less, who provides insufficient grace for all to have the opportunity to be saved. What love is this?

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In Rom. 5:15 Paul changes the object of his discussion to BELIEVERS, for what saith the Scriptures (Rom. 5:15-19)?

"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto MANY. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more THEY WHICH RECEIVE ABUNDANCE OF GRACE AND OF THE GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be MADE RIGHTEOUS."

Through Adam all have sinned. Through Christ the free "gift came upon all men unto justification of life": God's grace was sufficient for all. Many are made righteous because many receiving God's saving grace.

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How do the Scriptures, a JEWISH Book, define the term "all men" in Rom. 5:18 and I Tim. 2:4? How do they define "all" in I Tim. 2:6? What saith the Scriptures?

Acts 9:15: "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before THE GENTILES, and KINGS, and THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL."

Acts 22:15: "For thou shalt be his witness unto ALL MEN of what thou hast seen and heard."

Rom. 2:9-11: "Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of THE GENTILE; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to THE GENTILE: For there is NO RESPECT OF PERSONS with God."

Rom. 10:12: "For there is no difference between the Jew and the GREEK: for the same Lord over ALL is rich unto all that call upon him."

I Tim. 2:1-7: "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL MEN; For KINGS, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, TO BE TESTIFIED IN DUE TIME. WHEREUNTO I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not a teacher of THE GENTILES in faith and verity."

Choosing Israel doesn't not mean they are irresistibly saved, for they still must individually believe in God to be saved. God chose the nation of Israel because she had a heart to listen among the nations for she was enslaved for 430 years.

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Who repents and believes? What saith the Scriptures?

Mat. 16:16-17: "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for FLESH AND BLOOD HATH NOT REVEALED IT UNTO THEE, BUT MY FATHER which is in heaven."

Jn. 3:27: "A man can receive NOTHING, except it be GIVEN (δίδωμι) him from heaven."

Jn. 6:65: "NO MAN can come unto me, except it were GIVEN (δίδωμι) unto him of my Father."

Acts 11:18: "Then HATH GOD...GRANTED (δίδωμι) REPENTANCE unto life."

II Tim. 2:25: "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if GOD...WILL GIVE (δίδωμι)...REPENTANCE to the acknowledging of the truth."

Acts 13:48: "And AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED to eternal life BELIEVED."

God provides the gift of repentance, but in no way implies that it is irresistibly imposed. Why read into the text that which is not there?

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Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that Acts 13:48b is in the PASSIVE VOICE, which means that the subject is being ACTED UPON, and has NOTHING to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it.

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13.48). This verse does not say how they were ordained whether by God foreknowing their free choice or by evilly being irresistibly imposed upon, but the context of the whole chapter clearly tells us that it was by God foreknowing our free choice. There is nothing passive about "believed". It is a free choice. Context is what matters.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7rOmLZs4W8

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You continue to try to understand God completely, to deny reprobation because it makes no sense to the carnal mind, your mind. What saith the Scripture (Isa. 55:9)? "For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."

I believe in reprobation. The carnal mind can't understand how God is so loving and powerful that He can provide sufficient grace to us all to give us all the opportunity to be saved, without which is a false reprobation and a false salvation.

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You wrote, "I am glad I don't have to spend eternity in the New City with any Calvinists. That would be Hell." Again, be careful what you wish for, Arminian; God may give it to you.

You won't be able to drag me to Hell with you. He told me by the Holy Spirit and His word, I won't have to spend one second with any Calvinists in the New City because there are no Calvinists there. Thank you God. But I would go to Hell for you to save you, because where you are going I wish upon no man.

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The Greek word in Heb. 10:39 is ὑποστολή, a different word than is used in John chapter 6. You wrote, "All that are given in verse 37 do come, but it doesn't say all that are drawn come." You are WRONG, your logic is faulty; ALL those who COME are DRAWN by God irresistibly, and they are ELECT, SAVED, for what saith the Scriptures?

Jn. 6:37: "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and HIM THAT COMETH (ἔρχομαι) to me I WILL IN NO WISE CAST OUT."

Jn. 6:44: "No man can COME (ἔρχομαι) to me, except the Father which hath sent me DRAW (ἕλκω) him: and I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY."

All those who come (ἔρχομαι) are drawn (ἕλκω), and they all are raised up at the last day, SAVED, ELECT.

Different words are good. God likes variety. Sometimes the same word is used in two different contexts like with Lydia who believed in God and worshiped Him, willingly heard us, while others worship in vain.

Certainly all that come to God are drawn for nobody can come to God without being drawn, but sadly many "draw back unto perdition" (Heb. 10.39) especially Calvinists such as yourself. All that the Father gives come and must be drawn but are never drawn irresistibly for that would be evil. Don't assume irresistibly drawing, for God does His part and man must respond to His drawing for a relationship to develop and flourish. Otherwise, it is just a world of robots. God is not a god of robots! How dull that would be despite the many Calvinists who want to be that way, like Hitler's Aryan race irresistibly selected.

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I am not a King James Only advocate, I merely pointed out that both ᾅδης and γέεννα are translated as "hell" in the King James Bible. They are both places of TORMENT (Lk. 16:23, Mk. 9:43) for the reprobate, and one day ᾅδης will be thrown into γέεννα (Rev. 20:14).

Hades is never translated as Hell, that was a mistake of the late text the KJV was built on, which is why none of the later versions agree with the KJV. This error was fixed. There is only one Hell, not two Hells. Get use to this fact! Hades is thrown into Hell. Be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8). You can't throw a dishwasher into a dishwasher. Dishes go in a dishwasher. You should repent of your false teaching.

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No, sir, that IS the issue. The Greek has shown your Arminian FALSE DOCTRINE to be the HERESY that it is; THAT is why you downplay it. You never responded to the Berry, Young, and Comfort translations of Jn. 3:27, Jn. 6:44, and Jn. 6:65, because they prove total inability.

Since you can't show these verses point to any Total inability, nor by various writers you cite, then why assume into the text? What in heavens makes you think I downplay Arminian for it is 100% true? Jacob Arminius got it right in response to the evil of Calvinism he was faced with. God predestinates by foreknowing our free-choice: a conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, for preservation of the saints. Amen.

Since God only saves one way, as agreed to by OSAS Arminian, and you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated, you are not born-again. God will not receive you selfishly by assuming regeneration without having had to repent and believe in Him by grace through faith. How sad for you. You know not what you do.

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No, sir, you are NOT an apostle; for you to claim that sacred office is proud, arrogant, and UNSCRIPTURAL. Paul was a legitimate apostle, He was God's replacement for Judas, "the apostle of the Gentiles" (Rom. 11:13), chosen by God Himself (Acts 9:1-15). And no, no woman ever was an apostle, for it is written (I Cor. 14:34), "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law," and it is written again (I Tim. 2:11-12), "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence." The Apostle Paul said He had seen Christ (I Cor. 9:1). Have you seen Him? If you say you have, you're a liar, for it is written (I Pet. 1:8), "Whom having not seen, ye love." Yes, Rev. 2:2 indeed does say, "Thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars." John must have had YOU in mind.

You said "Paul...was God's replacement for Judas." Matthias was the replacement of Judas in Acts 1, not Paul. You need to get you facts straight. Just as Paul was an Apostle and Matthias was an Apostle, so were Junias and "all the Apostles" not just the "12 Apostles" for the Apostles are for today (Eph. 4.11).

Since you are not born-again, naturally you attack the Apostles. I can understand your hostility in your cult of Calvinism. It is perfectly reasonable given the heresies you cling to. Your abusiveness towards women takes 1 Tim. 2.11-12 out of context. Since there is a woman Apostle, you must reconcile this verse by realizing that women can be emotional and need to humble themselves. Don't try to legalize this verse out of context and miss the spirit of the message. You don't need to see Jesus in Person to be an Apostle, for many Apostles have never seen Jesus, even Apostles in the first century. John had all Apostles in mind throughout all the centuries, myself included.

You are not a child of God, but a child of perdition, a false Christian. That's why Jesus says you are "condemned already" (John 3.18). Sure you may say to Jesus, Lord, Lord, didn't you work in His name? to which Jesus replies with much conviction, He never knew you. How sad for you.
11-28-2009, 11:50 AM
briancook007

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Your point is invalid. Again, in both Mat. 15:9 and Mk. 7:7 Christ is quoting Isa. 29:13. Your argument is predicated on Lydia's having been saved before Acts 16:14, that because she worshiped (σέβω) God, that that proves she was a believer. That is NOT SO, for what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 29:13: ""Wherefore THE LORD said, Forasmuch as this people draw near ME with their mouth, and with their lips do honour ME, but have removed their heart far from ME, and their fear toward ME is taught by the precept of men."

Mat. 15:9: "But IN VAIN they do worship (σέβω) ME, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Mk. 7:7: "Howbeit IN VAIN do they worship (σέβω) ME, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men."

Acts 16:14: " And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped (σέβω) GOD, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

Jn. 8:43, 47: "Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot HEAR (ἀκούω) my word. He that is of God HEARETH (ἀκούω) God's words: ye therefore HEAR (ἀκούω) them not, because ye are not of God."

Jn. 1:13: "Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, NOR OF THE WILL OF MAN, but of God."

II Cor. 5:17: "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new CREATURE (κτίσις, "CREATION"): old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

Acts 13:48: "And when the Gentiles HEARD THIS (ἀκούω), they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED to eternal life BELIEVED."

Mk. 4:9: "And he said unto them, He that hath ears TO HEAR (ἀκούω), LET HIM HEAR (ἀκούω)."

Jn. 6:44-45: "No man CAN (δύναμαι) come to me, except the Father which hath sent me DRAW (ἕλκω) him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore THAT HATH HEARD (ἀκούω), and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."

Acts 16:14: "And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped (σέβω) God, HEARD (ἀκούω) us: whose heart THE LORD opened (διανοίγω, "to open thoroughly"), THAT SHE ATTENDED (προσέχω) unto the things which were spoken of Paul."

God opened (διανοίγω) her heart, He regenerated her, thus producing the effectual response (προσέχω) to the Gospel, faith and repentance. Lydia was baptized immediately, showing that this was her salvation experience, just as the Philippian jailor was baptized immediately upon his salvation experience (Acts 16:30-33).

Your ignorance of the Book of Acts is showing; people were baptized on the same day they were saved (Acts 2:41, Acts 8:12-13, Acts 10:47-48, Acts 18:8). Are you accusing the REAL Apostles, not FALSE apostles like YOU, of "imposing constricting and invasive rules"?

And no, Paul didn't say anything there at all as far as his being the writer. Luke wrote the Book of Acts; your comment made it appear as if Paul wrote it.

You wrote, "What an evil tyrant your god is, very much like Hitler who sends the Jews to the gas chambers from birth without recourse." You also wrote, "I wouldn't want to be in your shoes." Boy, isn't that "the pot calling the kettle 'black'". I wouldn't want to be in your shoes.

And no, again, Calvinism does NOT say that man must assume he is regenerated before he repents and believes. It says that the ONLY way he does that is by God's sovereign, efficacious, certain, unconquerable, irresistible grace in regeneration, which PRECEDES faith and repentance, for what saith the Scriptures?

Eze. 36:26-27: "A NEW HEART also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the STONY HEART out of your flesh, and I will give you an HEART OF FLESH. And I will put my spirit within you, and CAUSE you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

Mat. 16:16-17: "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for FLESH AND BLOOD HATH NOT REVEALED IT UNTO THEE, BUT MY FATHER which is in heaven."

Jn. 3:27: "A man can receive NOTHING, except it be GIVEN (δίδωμι) him from heaven."

Jn. 6:65: "NO MAN can come unto me, except it were GIVEN (δίδωμι) unto him of my Father."

Acts 11:18: "Then HATH GOD...GRANTED (δίδωμι) REPENTANCE unto life."

II Tim. 2:25: "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if GOD...WILL GIVE (δίδωμι)...REPENTANCE to the acknowledging of the truth."

Acts 13:48: "And AS MANY AS WERE ORDAINED to eternal life BELIEVED."

Again, Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that Acts 13:48b is in the PASSIVE VOICE, which means that the subject is being ACTED UPON, and has NOTHING to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it.

Again, the Greek word δύναμαι, "to be able", is found in Jn. 3:27, Jn. 6:44, and Jn. 6:65. What saith the Scriptures?

Jn. 3:27 (George Ricker Berry Interlinear Greek-English New Testament translation): "A man IS ABLE to receive NOTHING unless it be GIVEN to him from the heaven."

Jn. 3:27 (Young's Literal Translation): "A man IS NOT ABLE to receive ANYTHING, if it may not have been GIVEN him from the heaven."

Jn. 3:27 (Philip W. Comfort New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament): "A man IS NOT ABLE to receive ANYTHING unless it has been GIVEN to him from Heaven."

Jn. 6:44 (George Ricker Berry Interlinear Greek-English New Testament translation): "NO one IS ABLE to come to me UNLESSthe Father who sent me DRAW him, and I will raise up him at the last day."

Jn. 6:44 (Young's Literal Translation): "NO one IS ABLE to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not DRAW him, and I will raise him up in the last day."

Jn. 6:44 (Philip W. Comfort New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament): "NO one IS ABLE to come to me UNLESS the Father having sent me should DRAW him, and I will raise up him in the last day."

Jn. 6:65 (George Ricker Berry Interlinear Greek-English New Testament translation): "NO one IS ABLE to come to me unless it be GIVEN to him from my Father."

Jn. 6:65 (Young's Literal Translation): "NO one IS ABLE to come unto me, if it may not have been GIVEN him from my Father."

Jn. 6:65: (Philip W. Comfort New Greek-English Interlinear New Testament): "NO one IS ABLE to come to me unless it has been GIVEN to him from the Father."

Those verses DO show total inability, total depravity, regardless of your feeble attempts to explain them away. Again, what saith the Scriptures?

Jer. 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? THEN MAY YE ALSO DO GOOD, that are accustomed to do evil."

Jer. 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately WICKED: who can know it?"

Psa. 9:17: "The wicked shall be turned into HELL...."

Psa. 10:4: "The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in ALL HIS THOUGHTS."

Psa. 58:3: "The wicked are estranged FROM THE WOMB: they go astray AS SOON AS THEY BE BORN, speaking lies."

Eph. 2:1-3: "And you hath he quickened, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins; Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were BY NATURE the children of wrath, even as others."

Job 15:16: "How much more ABOMINABLE and FILTHY is man, which drinketh iniquity like water?"

Isa. 1:5-6: "The WHOLE head is sick, and the WHOLE heart faint. From the sole of the foot even unto the head there is NO soundness in it; but wounds, and bruises, and putrifying sores: they have not been closed, neither bound up, neither mollified with ointment."

Isa. 64:6: "But we are ALL as an UNCLEAN THING, and ALL our RIGHTEOUSNESSES are as FILTHY RAGS."

Rom. 3:10-11: "As it is written, There is NONE RIGHTEOUS, NO, NOT ONE: There is NONE that understandeth (συνίημι), there is NONE THAT SEEKETH AFTER GOD."

Mat. 16:16-17: "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for FLESH AND BLOOD HATH NOT REVEALED IT UNTO THEE, BUT MY FATHER which is in heaven."

Jn. 6:44: "NO man CAN come to me, EXCEPT the Father which hath sent me DRAW (ἕλκω) him."

Jn. 18:10: "Then Simon Peter having a sword DREW (ἕλκω) it...."

Jn. 21:6: "They cast therefore, and now they were not able TO DRAW (ἕλκω) it for the multitude of fishes."

Acts 21:30: "And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and DREW (ἕλκω) him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut."

These verses DO show total depravity, and there is NOTHING you can say to change that, for it is written (Rom. 3:4), "Let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged."

"What love is this?", you ask? What saith the Scriptures?

Rom. 9:16-22: "So then IT IS NOT OF HIM THAT WILLETH, NOR OF HIM THAT RUNNETH, BUT OF GOD THAT SHEWETH MERCY. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore HATH HE MERCY ON WHOM HE WILL HAVE MERCY, and WHOM HE WILL HE HARDENETH. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O MAN, WHO ART THOU THAT REPLIEST AGAINST GOD? SHALL THE THING FORMED SAY TO HIM THAT FORMED IT, WHY HAST THOU MADE ME THUS? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, WILLING TO SHEW HIS WRATH, AND TO MAKE HIS POWER KNOWN, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath FITTED TO DESTRUCTION."

Again, Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that "fitted to destruction" is in the PASSIVE VOICE, which means that the subject is being ACTED UPON, and has NOTHING to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it. You can deny the Greek of this verse all you please, but that doesn't change its truth.

Once again, John Piper is NOT the authority; the Scriptures are. NEVER ONCE in the Exodus narrative is it said that Pharaoh's heart would be hardened apart from GOD'S hardening it. As the Hebrew shows, He hardened it by LEAVING IT IN ITS NATURAL STATE, that of a wicked, evil, totally depraved sinner, for what saith the Scriptures?

Isa. 14:24: "The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely AS I HAVE THOUGHT, SO SHALL IT COME TO PASS; and AS I HAVE PURPOSED, SO SHALL IT STAND."

Dan. 4:35: "And ALL the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as NOTHING: and HE DOETH ACCORDING TO HIS WILL in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and NONE CAN STAY HIS HAND, or say unto him, What doest thou?"

Eph. 1:11: "...the PURPOSE of him who worketh ALL THINGSafter the counsel of his OWN will..."

Prov. 16:9: "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps."

Prov. 20:24: "Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?"

Jer. 10:23: " O LORD, I know that THE WAY OF MAN IS NOT IN HIMSELF: IT IS NOT IN MAN THAT WALKETH TO DIRECT HIS STEPS."

Ex. 3:19: "And I AM SURE that the king of Egypt will not let you go, no, not by a mighty hand."

Ex. 4:21: "And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I WILL HARDEN HIS HEART, that he shall not let the people go."

Ex. 9:17: "And in very deed FOR THIS CAUSE have I raised thee up, for TO SHEW IN THEE MY POWER; and that my name may be declared throughout all the earth."

Rom. 9:22: "What if God, WILLING TO SHEW HIS WRATH, AND TO MAKE HIS POWER KNOWN, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath FITTED TO DESTRUCTION."

Ex. 7:14: "And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is HARDENED (Heb. "kabed") he refuseth to let the people go."

Ex. 17:12: "But Moses' hands were HEAVY (Heb. "kabed")."

Ex. 18:18: "Thou wilt surely wear away, both thou, and this people that is with thee: for this thing is too HEAVY (Heb. "kabed") for thee."

Num. 11:14: "I am not able to bear all this people alone, because it is too HEAVY (Heb. "kabed") for me."

I Kgs. 12:4: "Thy father made our yoke grievous: now therefore make thou the grievous service of thy father, and his HEAVY (Heb. "kabed") yoke which he put upon us, lighter, and we will serve thee."

Psa. 38:4: "For mine INIQUITIES are gone over mine head: as an HEAVY (Heb. "kabed") burden they are too heavy for me."

Isa. 1:4: "Ah sinful nation, a people LADEN (Heb. "kabed") WITH INIQUITY..."

You still dare to question God's holiness and justice in His sovereign foreordination of sin? What saith the Scriptures?

I Jn. 1:5: "God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."

Gen. 50:20: "But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good, TO BRING TO PASS, as it is this day, to save much people alive."

Jos. 11:20: "For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses."

I Sam. 16:23: " And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him."

II Sam. 16:8-11: "The LORD hath returned upon thee all the blood of the house of Saul, in whose stead thou hast reigned; and the LORD hath delivered the kingdom into the hand of Absalom thy son: and, behold, thou art taken in thy mischief, because thou art a bloody man. Then said Abishai the son of Zeruiah unto the king, Why should this dead dog curse my lord the king? let me go over, I pray thee, and take off his head. And the king said, What have I to do with you, ye sons of Zeruiah? so let him curse, because the LORD hath said unto him, Curse David. Who shall then say, Wherefore hast thou done so? And David said to Abishai, and to all his servants, Behold, my son, which came forth of my bowels, seeketh my life: how much more now may this Benjamite do it? let him alone, and let him curse; for the LORD hath bidden him."

I Kgs. 22:23: "Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee."

II Kgs. 24:2-3: "And the LORD sent against him bands of the Chaldees, and bands of the Syrians, and bands of the Moabites, and bands of the children of Ammon, and sent them against Judah to destroy it, according to the word of the LORD, which he spake by his servants the prophets. Surely at the commandment of the LORD came this upon Judah, to remove them out of his sight, for the sins of Manasseh, according to all that he did."

II Chr. 33:11: "Wherefore the LORD brought upon them the captains of the host of the king of Assyria, which took Manasseh among the thorns, and bound him with fetters, and carried him to Babylon."

II Chr. 36:16-17: "But they mocked the messengers of God, and despised his words, and misused his prophets, until the wrath of the LORD arose against his people, till there was no remedy. Therefore he brought upon them the king of the Chaldees, who slew their young men with the sword in the house of their sanctuary, and had no compassion upon young man or maiden, old man, or him that stooped for age: he gave them all into his hand."

Isa. 5:25-29: "Therefore is the anger of the LORD kindled against his people, and he hath stretched forth his hand against them, and hath smitten them: and the hills did tremble, and their carcases were torn in the midst of the streets. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still. And he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly: None shall be weary nor stumble among them; none shall slumber nor sleep; neither shall the girdle of their loins be loosed, nor the latchet of their shoes be broken: Whose arrows are sharp, and all their bows bent, their horses' hoofs shall be counted like flint, and their wheels like a whirlwind: Their roaring shall be like a lion, they shall roar like young lions: yea, they shall roar, and lay hold of the prey, and shall carry it away safe, and none shall deliver it."

Isa. 10:5-7, 15: "O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation. I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets. Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few. Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood."

Isa. 29:16: "Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?"

Jer. 25:9-12: "Behold, I will send and take all the families of the north, saith the LORD, and Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and will bring them against this land, and against the inhabitants thereof, and against all these nations round about, and will utterly destroy them, and make them an astonishment, and an hissing, and perpetual desolations. Moreover I will take from them the voice of mirth, and the voice of gladness, the voice of the bridegroom, and the voice of the bride, the sound of the millstones, and the light of the candle. And this whole land shall be a desolation, and an astonishment; and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years. And it shall come to pass, when seventy years are accomplished, that I will punish the king of Babylon, and that nation, saith the LORD, for their iniquity, and the land of the Chaldeans, and will make it perpetual desolations."

Lam. 1:17: "Zion spreadeth forth her hands, and there is none to comfort her: the LORD hath commanded concerning Jacob, that his adversaries should be round about him: Jerusalem is as a menstruous woman among them."

Amos 9:9: "For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth."

Isa. 53:4: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted."

Lk. 22:22: "And truly the Son of man goeth, as it was determined: but woe unto that man by whom he is betrayed!"

Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."

Acts 3:18: "But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled."

Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."

Acts 19:9: "But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus."

I Pet. 2:8: "And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."

Rev. 17:17: "For God hath put in their hearts to fulfill his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled."

You still deny total depravity? What saith the Scriptures?

Prov. 21:10: "The soul of the wicked DESIRETH EVIL."

Isa. 64:6: "But we are ALL as an UNCLEAN THING, and ALL our RIGHTEOUSNESSES are as FILTHY RAGS."

Tit. 1:15-16: "Unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is NOTHING pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and UNTO EVERY GOOD WORK REPROBATE."

Tit. 1:15-16 (George Ricker Berry Interlinear Greek-English New Testament translation): "All things [are] pure to the pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving NOTHING [is] pure; but are defiled both their mind and [their] conscience. God they profess to know, but in works deny [him], being abominable and disobedient, and as TO EVERY GOOD WORK FOUND WORTHLESS."

Once again, the "filthy rags" in Isa. 64:6 are MENSTRUAL RAGS, what we would call today a SOILED TAMPON. That's the BEST man can do apart from God's grace!

Jesus died for the elect only, securing our salvation at Calvary. "All" in II Cor. 5:14-18 refers to God's elect, for what saith the Scriptures?

Rom. 8:29-34: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for US ALL, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of GOD'S ELECT? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."

Rom. 6:6-13: "Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. LIKEWISE reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God."

I Pet. 2:24-25: "Who his own self bare OUR sins in his own body on the tree, that WE, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes YE were healed. For YE were as SHEEP going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls."

II Cor. 5:14-18: "For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one DIED FOR ALL (πᾶς), then were ALL (πᾶς) dead: And that he DIED FOR ALL (πᾶς), that THEY WHICH LIVE should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which DIED FOR THEM, and rose again. Wherefore henceforth know WE no man after the flesh: yea, though WE have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know WE him no more. Therefore if any man be IN CHRIST, he is a NEW CREATURE (κτίσις): old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled US to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to US the ministry of reconciliation."

I Cor. 12:13: "For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

Col. 2:11-14: "In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross."

Col. 3:9-12: "Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that CREATED (κτίζω, verb form of κτίσις) him: Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in ALL (πᾶς). Put on therefore, as the ELECT OF GOD..."

Isa. 53:6: "All we like SHEEP have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of US ALL."

Jn. 10:11, 15: "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for THE SHEEP. As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for THE SHEEP."

Eph. 5:25-28: "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved THE CHURCH, and gave himself for IT; That HE MIGHT SANCTIFY (ἁγιάζω) and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."

Heb. 2:9-17: ""But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for EVERY MAN. For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many SONS unto glory, to make the captain of THEIR salvation perfect through sufferings. For both he that sanctifieth and THEY WHO ARE SANCTIFIED(ἁγιάζω) are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them BRETHREN, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my BRETHREN, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the CHILDREN which God hath given me. Forasmuch then as the CHILDREN are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his BRETHREN, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people."

Heb. 10:14: "For by one offering HE HATH PERFECTED (τελειόω) for ever THEM THAT ARE SANCTIFIED (ἁγιάζω)."

I Pet. 1:2: "ELECT according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through SANCTIFICATION (ἁγιασμός) of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied."

Again, in Rom. 5:15 Paul changes the object of his discussion to BELIEVERS, for what saith the Scriptures (Rom. 5:15-19)?

"But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto MANY. And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more THEY WHICH RECEIVE ABUNDANCE OF GRACE AND OF THE GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be MADE RIGHTEOUS."

How do the Scriptures, a JEWISH Book, define the term "all men" in Rom. 5:18 and I Tim. 2:4? How do they define "all" in I Tim. 2:6? What saith the Scriptures?

Acts 9:15: "But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before THE GENTILES, and KINGS, and THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL."

Acts 22:15: "For thou shalt be his witness unto ALL MEN of what thou hast seen and heard."

Rom. 2:9-11: "Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of THE GENTILE; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to THE GENTILE: For there is NO RESPECT OF PERSONS with God."

Rom. 10:12: "For there is no difference between the Jew and the GREEK: for the same Lord over ALL is rich unto all that call upon him."

I Tim. 2:1-7: "I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for ALL MEN; For KINGS, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for ALL, TO BE TESTIFIED IN DUE TIME. WHEREUNTO I am ordained a preacher, and an apostle, (I speak the truth in Christ, and lie not;) a teacher of THE GENTILES in faith and verity."

Yes, Jn. 1:29, Jn. 4:42, I Jn. 4:14, and Jn. 3:16-17 all use the term "world" (κόσμος); what saith the Scriptures?

Jn. 12:19-20: "The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the WORLD (κόσμος) is gone after him. And there were certain GREEKS among them that came up to worship at the feast."

Rom. 11:12: "Now if the fall of them be the riches of the WORLD (κόσμος), and the diminishing of them the riches of the GENTILES."

Regarding I Jn. 2:2, what saith the Scriptures?

Gal. 2:9: "And when James, Cephas, and JOHN, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they UNTO THE CIRCUMCISION."

I Jn. 2:2: "And he is the propitiation for OUR sins: and NOT FOR OURS ONLY, but also for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD (κόσμος)."

Jn. 11:51b-52: "Being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for THAT NATION (ἔθνος); And NOT FOR THAT NATION (ἔθνος) ONLY, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad."

Rom. 1:5, 8: "By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among ALL NATIONS (ἔθνος), for his name: First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the WHOLE WORLD (κόσμος)."

You wrote, "God chose the nation of Israel because she had a heart to listen among the nations for she was enslaved for 430 years." Are you serious? Now you're really groping. What saith the Scriptures?

Deut. 7:6-8: "For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people: But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt."

Deut. 32:9-12: "For the LORD's portion is his people; Jacob is the lot of his inheritance. HE found HIM in a desert land, and in the waste howling wilderness; HE led HIM about, HE instructed HIM, HE kept HIM as the apple of his eye. As an eagle stirreth up her nest, fluttereth over her young, spreadeth abroad her wings, taketh them, beareth them on her wings: So the LORD ALONE did lead him, and there was no strange god with him."

God does not provide the possibility to repent, as Arminianism teaches falsely, He provides ACTUAL repentance, for what saith the Scriptures?

Mat. 16:16-17: "And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for FLESH AND BLOOD HATH NOT REVEALED IT UNTO THEE, BUT MY FATHER which is in heaven."

Jn. 3:27: "A man can receive NOTHING, except it be GIVEN (δίδωμι) him from heaven."

Jn. 6:65: "NO MAN can come unto me, except it were GIVEN (δίδωμι) unto him of my Father."

Acts 11:18: "Then HATH GOD...GRANTED (δίδωμι) REPENTANCE unto life."

II Tim. 2:25: "In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if GOD...WILL GIVE (δίδωμι)...REPENTANCE to the acknowledging of the truth."

You are NOT a Greek scholar, you are NOT qualified to give a Greek grammatical opinion. Again, Dr. A.T. Robertson, the greatest Koine Greek scholar of modern times, says that Acts 13:48b is in the PASSIVE VOICE, which means that the subject is being ACTED UPON, and has NOTHING to do with the action, other than being on the receiving end of it.

Again, you are NOT a Greek scholar, you are NOT qualified to give a Greek grammatical opinion; the Greek word in Heb. 10:39 is ὑποστολή, a different word than is used in John chapter 6. You say the elect are not drawn IRRESISTIBLY? What saith the Scriptures?

Jn. 6:44: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me DRAW (ἕλκω)him."

Jn. 12:32: " And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, WILL DRAW (ἕλκω) all men unto me."

Jn. 18:10: "Then Simon Peter having a sword DREW (ἕλκω) it...."

Jn. 21:6: "They cast therefore, and now they were not able TO DRAW (ἕλκω) it for the multitude of fishes."

Jn. 21:11: "Simon Peter went up, and DREW (ἕλκω) the net to land full of great fishes, and hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, yet was not the net broken."

Acts 16:19: "And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and DREW (ἕλκω) them into the marketplace unto the rulers."

Acts 21:30: "And all the city was moved, and the people ran together: and they took Paul, and DREW (ἕλκω) him out of the temple: and forthwith the doors were shut."

James 2:6: "But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and DRAW (ἕλκω) you before the judgment seats?"

παράδεισος is translated as "paradise" in the KJV in reference to both "Abraham's bosom" (Lk. 16:22) and Heaven (II Cor. 12:4, Rev. 2:7); both were places of COMFORT for the elect. Both ᾅδης and γέεννα are translated as "hell" in the KJV, and they both may be considered as such, for they are both places of TORMENT (Lk. 16:23, Mk. 9:43) for the reprobate. One day ᾅδης will be thrown into γέεννα (Rev. 20:14), which is designated as the Lake of Fire; ᾅδης never is designated as such.

No, Matthias was not a legitimate apostle; PAUL was the legitimate twelfth apostle. The folks in Acts chapter 1 were wrong, they acted carnally.

No, there are no women apostles, for what saith the Scriptures?

I Cor. 14:34: "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law."

I Tim. 2:11-12: "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

John indeed did have YOU in mind, you FALSE APOSTLE, when he wrote (Rev. 2:2), "Thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them LIARS."

<Removed large block of robotic, impersonal, repetitive copy and paste text>
11-28-2009, 03:31 PM
Churchwork

Did you ever get a chance to read Dave Hunt's, Final Word to Calvinists?

A Final Word to Calvinists
What Love is This? by Dave Hunt, p. 533

MY HEART HAS BEEN BROKEN by Calvinism's misrepresentation of the God the Bible, whom I love with all my heart, and for the excuse this has given atheists not to believe in Him. My sincere and earnest desire...has been to defend God's character against the libel that denies His love for all and insist that He does not make salvation available to all because He does not want all to be saved. It is my prayer...recognize Christian authors and leaders, ancient or modern and no matter how well respected, are all fallible and that God's Word is our only authority.

God's Word declares that the gospel, which is "the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Rom. 1.16), is "good tidings of great joy," not just to certain elect, but "to all people" (Luke 2.10). Sadly, the insistence that only a select group have been elected to salvation is not "good tidings of great joy to all people"! How can such a doctrine be biblical?

It is my prayer that Calvinist readers who may have gotten...far have been fully persuaded to misrepresent no longer the God of love as having predestinated multitudes to eternal doom while withholding from them any opportunity to understand and believe the gospel. How many unbelievers have rejected God because of this deplorable distortion I do not know-but may that excuse be denied...! And may believers, in confidence that the gospel is indeed glad tidings for all people, take God's good news to the whole world!
11-28-2009, 04:25 PM
Churchwork

Calvinsts are under possession, for they can't sense why the god of Calvinism is evil

Why do you keep avoiding these points (summarized below and summed up by the 6 Major Sins of Calvinism)?

Your mistaken assumptions are as follows (overassuming, reading into the text that which is not supported by the text):

1. Claiming Lydia worshiped God in vain when Acts 16.14 says she positively "worshiped God" so she "heard us" just like those who had believed in God and the coming Messiah though Christ had not yet come. In your first bringing this up at the outset there is not shown conclusively irresistible regeneration and there being no free-will involved even if Lydia did not believe in God, so adding your thought into the text is without foundation. "As she listened to us, the Lord opened her heart, and she accepted what Paul was saying" (v.14). Praise the Lord! Very emphatically, "She was a worshiper of God"! So As she listened to us, God opened her heart. Someone who already believes in God would surely accept the Son of God, for the Son of God is the 2nd Person in the Godhead.

2. Claiming a person can't be baptized for service at any other time other than the day they were born-again!? Please. That's not free will. There is no such demand made in Scripture for baptism required on the day of new birth, being made a new creation of God.

3. You falsely accused, "Your comment made it appear as if Paul wrote it." You're sinning bearing false witness since you can't and don't even try to prove your allegation.

4. You do assume you were regenerated without having to prior repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. And this is why you are not born-again, because God wants a real and genuine heartfelt relationship not an assuming one and in your head.

5. There are no verses in the Bible that teach you have to be regenerated before you can believe in Christ. Therefore, it is clear you are pridefully assuming regeneration without the prerequisite of true repentance and faith. How sad for you that this is the way you want to be-the tares trying to look the saved wheat as you worship a false Christ.

6. The issue is not whether God provides the grace (for obviously He does), but whether God provides sufficient grace to all to give us the opportunity for salvation to freely obtain the gift of repentance and faith to believe on Him. Since Jesus died on the cross for all, this shows Calvinism is evil. A further rationalizing to claim God has a secret will in which He doesn't want all to be saved and a revealed will that He does want all to be saved is a contradiction, and a true and loving God does not contradict Himself.

7. The tense used in "as many as were ordained to eternal life believed" (Acts 13.48b) does not specify in Greek that the ordained is not depending on foreknowing the person's choice to believe.

8. None of the verses you quoted suggest Total depravity, but only willfulness and propensity to sin, not Total inability. Since you can't get the Bible to agree with you, you should repent of the heresy of the biggest TULIP bubble in history: the 5 points of Calvinism. As an aside, did you know Martin Luther who was a Total depravist is the guy responsible in the 1500's for putting the Christmas tree in a home? He subsequently moved it to England and was later sent to North America. "Thus saith the LORD, LEARN NOT THE WAY OF THE HEATHEN, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them. For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe. THEY DECK IT WITH SILVER AND WITH GOLD; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not" (Jer. 10.2-4). With a properly functioning conscience it should be embarrassing for Calvinists that they feel compelled to high jack the Sardis Reformation of "justification by faith" and tack onto it TULIP's and Christmas Trees.

9. The first active instance of hardening was the Pharaoh hardening his own heart first without any mention of God doing the hardening as in the latter instances. I can understand your desire to separate yourself from the embarrassment of Piper contradicting his Calvinism faith by his admitting the first active instance was the Pharaoh hardening his own heart first. Who is being more true to their Calvinism? While Piper is convicted by the clear reading of the text the first active hardening was the Pharaoh hardening his own heart first, Brian you shut your mind down and just insert God did it without giving the Pharaoh the choice in the matter, making the god of Calvinism evil-thus, true to form! I think you are being more true to Calvinism than Piper is, because Piper's conscience at least convicts him, though he will have to come up with a rationalization somehow to deal with it. Then you could ask yourself, who's hell is going to be worse? All else being equal I would have to say Brian, your hell will be worse than Piper's because your conscience is more seared than Piper's. You'll insert whatever you need to obnoxiously. To hell with evidence and clear delineation.

10. Acts 22.15: "For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard." All means all, not just some all men. "For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit" (1 Pet. 3.18). Not just some unrighteous, but all unrighteous, that whosoever is willing may be brought into that sure death on the cross with Christ and made alive in the spirit. Amen.

11. John 6.65: "No man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father." Nobody could be saved without the Father giving us to the Son; nowhere do we find in Scripture the giving is done by irresistibly drawing them without regard for our choice, for many "draw back unto perdition" (Heb. 10.39). To draw back indicates there were was God's initial drawing as He draws all men unto Himself.

12. John 12.32: " And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." This is God providing sufficient grace to all, all things summing up in Christ, not that the elect are irresistibly drawn. You've misread this verse and your pride oozes out in self-exaltation. If this really was a world of irresistibly moved chess pieces and reprobate damned from birth without the opportunity for salvation, who is to say you are not a child of Hell, for it was never your choice? Just like Washer tries to put on a show to compensate for his selfish salvation, you work hard for your salvation too, because you don't really know if you are saved or not as it was never your choice. You could just as easily being the reprobate. Who can know for sure! So false hope is giving to the reprobate of the gospel of Calvinism in quite a sadistic fashion.

13. You said, "Matthias was not a legitimate apostle"!? Acts 1.26 says, "Matthias...was numbered with the eleven apostles" as an Apostle. There were other Apostles to select from such as those in the 70, but Matthias was selected to be one of the 12. Nowhere do we find in Scripture your claim "Paul was the twelfth apostle." How absurd! Paul was an Apostle, not one of the 12 Apostles. Paul was saved about two years after the cross and didn't meet the Apostles Peter and James until three years after that. The Church was not missing a 12th Apostles for 5 years. Silly. Just as Jesus was seen "then of the twelve" (1 Cor. 15.5), He was also seen "then of all the Apostles" (v.7). And last of all he was seen by Paul. Praise the Lord!

Matthias was "chosen to take place in this ministry and apostleship" (Acts 1.24,25) as an Apostle. Realize the glaring contradiction of mistakenly claiming Matthias was not an Apostle but "then the twelve" (1 Cor. 15.5) saw Jesus alive from the dead during the 40 days. What 12? According to you there are only 11. Ask yourself, how do you get more than 11 apostles witnessing Jesus alive from the dead but Matthias is not an Apostle and Paul didn't get saved until at least 2 years after the cross? Your assumption denying the Apostles are for today is a heresy of grandest denomic intent that tries to do damage to God's Church. You're a heathen so I understand your attitude: false tare trying to look like the saved wheat. You're just another false Christian trying to usurp himself against God's will likely for filthy lucre and special teaching that will grab the fleshly. Since there were two notable Apostles to select from, we know there were at least 13, but since there were some Apostles among the 70, the 120 and the 500, we know these are "then of all the Apostles" (1 Cor. 15.7). You're a bad guy Brain. You're going to Hell because you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. That is the nature of being a Calvinist -- a selfish salvation! Naturally the way you read most of the Bible is by a "strange spirit."

"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers" (Eph. 4.11). Is Paul lying? Of course not. In 95 AD, what a strange calling of John who is the last remaining of the 12 Apostles to say these words if there are no other Apostles alive. Brian, you're Satanic to reject the Apostles. "I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars" (Rev. 2.2). If there were not any Apostles in 95 AD, John should have simply said there are no more Apostles, but he says test those who call themselves Apostles because there are Apostles today. Just as there are false Christians in Matthew 13 such as Calvinists, there are false Apostles who try to make themselves out to be true Apostles.
12-03-2009, 12:27 PM
briancook007

Dave Hunt says God loves all people; what saith the Scriptures?

Psa. 9:17: "The wicked shall be turned into HELL...."

Yes, in the Book of Acts people were baptized on the same day they were saved (Acts 2:41, Acts 8:12-13, Acts 10:47-48, Acts 18:8). I don't contend churches today are committing a sin by not baptizing people the same day they're saved, but that is how the Apostles did it.

The Scriptures never once tell us HOW to be born again; it simply is stated as a necessity, for it is a miracle of creation performed by God Himself.

You wrote, "This is a permanent infraction for your false teaching of gibberish babble." Very interesting. UNREGENERATE people held the same view of Christ, for the Scripture saith (Jn. 10:20), "And many of them said, He hath a devil, and is mad; why hear ye him?"

<Removed repetition already addressed before>
12-03-2009, 03:05 PM
Churchwork

According to your beliefs then God does not love you Brain!

You're repeating yourself desperately instead of responding in kind. As was said before, to repeat and hopefully you will address this time, of course the wicked are turned into Hell, but because they refuse God's love dying on the cross for the sins of the whole world, not because they were denied sufficient grace to have the opportunity. How absurd! If such behavior would be evil for us why not for your god? Thus, you make God into your own image, by the evil spirit indwelling your innerman devoid of the Holy Spirit.

Do you believe Jesus died for the sins of all? No? Then you are not a Christian, because Christians don't worship an evil god.

"The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1.29); "we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world" (John 4.42); "we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world" (1 John 4.14); "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world" (1 John 2.21); "He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone" (Heb. 2.9); "Since we believe that Christ died for everyone, we also believe that we [Christians] have all died to the old life we used to live" (2 Cor. 5.14); "...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe" (1 Tim. 4.10); "For God so loved the world...that the world through him might be saved" (John 3.16,17). This is not Total depravity: "Killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you!" (Matt. 23.37a); rather it is free will of evil men committing these acts. "How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!" (v.37b) which is sufficient grace to all.

Not everyone was baptized the same day they were saved in the Bible. You can't ask someone to do something they are not ready to do. Otherwise it is superficial and vain. That's forcing it like the evil tyrant that Calvin was, the Protest murderous Pope of Geneva.

The Scripture never tells us how to be born-again? "What must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved" (Acts 16.30-31). In Calvinism, selfishly, you erect the idol of Total depravity so you make yourself unable to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. So you opt out for assuming regeneration you were irresistibly made to believe, but of course, this is a selfish salvation. God will not receive you that way. There is only one way to be saved and that's God's way which He clearly delineates in His word.

Since there is no gibberish babble in the Bible, you're just trying to teach this cultic behavior to swarm up emotions into allegiance to your heresies. Yes they seem mad, but so do those who spread the word of God in another language, for their words filled with emotion and spirit sound like gibberish babble to one who does not understand that language, but those words are not foreign to the speaker. He knows what he is saying. What is said is "unknown" to the hearer. How foolish you are! You're trying to erect another idol of gibberish babble which was used by a second century cult called Montanism.

There are more than 12 Apostles and Apostles evey century. You're still avoiding James, brother of Jesus, who was an Apostle (please do so in the appropriate thread), http://biblocality.com/forums/showth...=6907#post6907

My prayer is one day you give your life to Christ to be saved the way God saves and not your way. Amen.
12-12-2009, 01:37 PM
briancook007

Dave Hunt says God loves all people; what saith the Scriptures?

Psa. 9:17: "The wicked shall be turned into HELL...."
12-13-2009, 12:19 AM
Churchwork

Quote:

Originally Posted by briancook007

Dave Hunt says God loves all people; what saith the Scriptures?

Psa. 9:17: "The wicked shall be turned into HELL...."

The very first thing you said was wrong.

We need a new approach because we are not getting anywhere you repeating yourself avoiding the response, so let's see if we can deal with one issue first and then move to the next. What makes you think that Jesus did not love all people enough so that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole world?

You said, What saith the Scriptures? But where does Ps. 9.17 agree with you that just because some people perish that that means God did not love them enough to die on the cross for them to give them the choice to be saved by grace through faith?

Furthermore, you are using a faulty text (KJV, NKJV) of the Bible for this particular passage. Psalms 9.17 reads, "The wicked shall depart to Sheol, all the nations that forget God" (RSV; Darby, HNV, ASV, NASB, ESV, NIV, NLT also agree). Sheol is not Hell. Hell is the Lake of Fire. Sheol (Hades) will be thrown into Hell we read in Revelation 20.

Those nations that forget God will die out, hence they go to "the grave" (Ps. 9.17 NLT*, NIV* - Footnote Sheol). They will go down to the bad side of Hades (or Sheol) where the Rich Man went.

Lazarus and the Repentant Thief went down to the good side of Hades of the Grave (Jews call it Paradise below), called Abraham's Bosom from which they will be resurrected 1000 years before those in the bad side of Hades.
12-13-2009, 02:38 PM
briancook007

No, sir, Mr. Hunt said God loves all people; that is NOT biblical.

No, sir, the fact of the matter is that YOU are not getting anywhere because the Word of God has exposed your Arminian heresy to be the false doctrine that it is; obviously, this is why your tone has quailed.

What makes me think Jesus didn't die for the reprobate? What makes me think He hates them? What saith the Scriptures?

Rom. 8:29-34: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for US ALL, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of GOD'S ELECT? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."
12-13-2009, 06:53 PM
Churchwork

Quote:

Originally Posted by briancook007

No, sir, Mr. Hunt said God loves all people; that is NOT biblical.

No, sir, the fact of the matter is that YOU are not getting anywhere because the Word of God has exposed your Arminian heresy to be the false doctrine that it is; obviously, this is why your tone has quailed.

What makes me think Jesus didn't die for the reprobate? What makes me think He hates them? What saith the Scriptures?

Rom. 8:29-34: "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us? He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for US ALL, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things? Who shall lay any thing to the charge of GOD'S ELECT? It is God that justifieth. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us."

First He foreknows. What does He foreknow? He foreknows our free-choice among other things. In seeing who receives His mercy and grace, He predestinates it.

The clear mistake you are making in reading Romans 8.29-34 is that instead of reading it as a looking back upon our salvation (knowing God chose us), you read it as irresistibly being forced into salvation and that God doesn't love people to die for the sins of the whole world. You assume too much which feeds your pride; or should I say, because of pride and disingenuousness in the falsity of the salvation that you want which God does not provide, you assume too much and read into the text that which is not there.

Your approach is to repost recopied large amount of text without responding personally and specifically which is a way to shut your mind down. Nobody has the time to respond to it by having to simply repeat ourselves over again to your belligerency, obstinacy and unwillingness to deal specifically in kind. You're trying to be unethical by using a filibuster. So the Holy Spirit has shown me how to handle this problem.

The first thing you said was wrong. Let's deal with it. I think this new approach is going to be more effective, because if I continue to throw pages of information at you, you buckle up and just repeat yourself like a drone instead of of dealing with the response given. We will deal with everything in good time, but for now I am just responding to the very first thing you say which as we have seen is always wrong. I think this is a proper personal Christian response to help you get out of your creaturely habit of repetitive self-rationalizing. It also helps me not waste time having to repeat myself ad infinitum.

What makes you think that in God foreknowing whom would be saved means that God does not love all enough to die on the cross for all our sins to saved us whosoever is willing? Romans 8.29-34 is looking back upon our (Christian) salvation; not a Calvinist irresistibly imposed salvation that was without any need for prior repentance and faith in Jesus Christ. In no way does Romans 8 suggest that God didn't die on the cross for the sins of the world. You must insert U, L and I of TULIP into the text as it clearly does not say that.

"Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out" (Acts 3.19). Does God offer us salvation when He says "come unto me" (Matt. 11.28) because we have free-will: "If any...whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely" (John 7.37, Rev. 22.17)? A child who reads this could not read it any other way. Hence, Calvinism is false.

"Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life" (Rom. 5.18). "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2.4). All men can be saved "whosoever should believeth" (John 3.16) "to the knowledge of truth" and "unto justification of life." This is a parallelism. Same "all men." This is not different all men but a comparing of the same all men, that Jesus died for all men. A free gift is not free if it is irresistibly imposed on someone. What love is this?

"Yes, Adam's one sin brought condemnation upon everyone, but Christ's one act of righteousness makes all people right in God's sight and gives them life" (Rom. 5.18 NLT). God's grace is upon us all that whosoever is willing may be saved by grace through faith.

Do you believe Jesus died for the sins of all? "The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!" (John 1.29); "we know that this is indeed the Christ, the Savior of the world" (John 4.42); "we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world" (1 John 4.14); "He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world" (1 John 2.21); "He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone" (Heb. 2.9); "Since we believe that Christ died for everyone, we also believe that we [Christians] have all died to the old life we used to live" (2 Cor. 5.14); "...we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe" (1 Tim. 4.10); "For God so loved the world...that the world through him might be saved" (John 3.16,17).

"For God so loved the world..." The god of Calvinism doesn't love the world, nor does he love his enemies, but the Bible says "love your enemy" (Matt. 5.44) just as God does. Even though sinners are enemies of God, God loves them having died on the cross for the sins of the whole world.

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world because He loves everyone. We also believe we have died to the old life we use to live so we come out of the world. God is the Savior of all men everywhere, so He loves us all to die on the cross for all our sins, but He loves those who are born-again especially of all, because He is going to be with us who were willing and wanted to be kept (knowing we couldn't keep ourselves) for eternity in the New City. Praise the Lord!

While Arminians account for these verses, Calvinists cannot see both groups of verses where Jesus loves the world but especially loves those who believe on Him; thus, they worship an evil god, an evil and impotent tyrant, who must resort to irresistibly imposing a false salvation on people through a false conversion experience (often called "easy-believism" by "stacking the deck").

Brian, the reason you work so hard to rationalize your view is because you are stuck in your head (soulical) and not walking by a quickened spirit with God's life. You assume your alleged salvation wasn't your choice. Realize, though, it was you choice. You chose to assume you were irresistibly forced into it. Satan forces. God never infringes on our freewill. But, you don't really know if you are saved or not because it wasn't your choice you believe, so all you can do is work for it and hope your works-based salvation works out. Regeneration does not take place in your soul, but in the spirit by the Holy Spirit when God gives you a new spirit with His uncreated life. He gives eternal life to those who repented and believe in Him. We whom are saved received His shed blood for forgiveness of sins and in co-death on the cross with Christ. You still have not received this because you worship a false Christ who resembles Hitler, Neron Kaisar and the Protestant Pope of Geneva. Sadly, you don't have a conscience to see this even after it has been explained to you so many times. But why don't you see? Because you don't want to. You don't come to God with an honest heart.

"Killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you" (Matt. 23.37a) is not because of Total depravity. Rather, it is the free will of evil men committing these acts. They were not forced to do it by the god of Calvinism, the author of evil and sin, which we know to be Satan. "How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!" (v.37b) describes for us the sufficiency of God's grace. The Calvinist does not know the love of God. And that's why Jesus doesn't know Calvinists.

"What must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved" (Acts 16.30-31).
12-21-2009, 01:16 PM
briancook007

Dave Hunt says God loves all people; what saith the Scriptures?

Psa. 9:17: "The wicked shall be turned into HELL...."
12-21-2009, 02:45 PM
Churchwork

Quote:

Originally Posted by briancook007

Dave Hunt says God loves all people; what saith the Scriptures?

Psa. 9:17: "The wicked shall be turned into HELL...."

What makes you think that since the wicked shall be turned into Hell that God doesn't love them enough to have provided the opportunity for salvation? All you did was repost what you said before like a clanging bell instead of addressing this.

Do you see how you use this verse as evidence for your beliefs but the verse doesn't say what you say it says at all. You have to read into the verse that which is not there.

Once you acknowledge this, let's move onto the next thing you said. The common problem with all your thoughts (which we have been repeatedly addressed) is assuming by erecting an idol called Total depravity which says you can't repent and believe in Christ, so you won't and you don't. This keeps you unsaved.

Our goal here is to assume nothing. Let's see if you can take a baby step in that direction.

God is pleading with you but you deny Him. "What must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved" (Acts 16.30-31). That would be strange if you couldn't respond when we see God is pleading with you, or you were irresistibly selected anyway making God's work of drawing people to Him irrelevant. I can tell by the way you think you don't know God's grace.

Since you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated, as you admit you can't because you erect this idol of Total depravity, then that's what keeps you eternally separated from God. How sad for you.

My prayers go out to you.

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