No True Scotsman Fallacy Misapplied

Re: EddieSchultz62
http://www.youtube.com/user/EddieSchultz62

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Originally Posted by EddieSchultz62

Ahhhh, yet another logical fallacy coming from you, 'No true Scottsman" as Martin pointed out. Do you even care what a logical fallacy is, or means?

example of what you're claiming.

"An argument similar to this is often arises when people attempt to define religious groups. In some Christian groups, for example, there is an idea that faith is permanent, that once one becomes a Christian one cannot fall away. Apparent counter-examples to this idea, people who appear to have faith but subsequently lose it, are written off using the 'No True Scotsman' fallacy: they didn't really have faith, they weren't true Christians. The claim that faith cannot be lost is thus preserved from refutation. Given such an approach, this claim is unfalsifiable, there is no possible refutation of it."

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I am glad you couldn't show it is a "No true Scotsman". This is what you are attempting...

Teacher: All Scotsmen (Christians) enjoy haggis (are OSAS).
Student: My uncle is a Scotsman (Christian), and he doesn't like haggis (is not OSAS)!
Teacher: Well, all TRUE Scotsmen (Christians) like haggis (are OSAS).

What the student said is a false statement, it is not admitted or accepted at all. In the No true Scotsman fallacy what the student said is admitted as factual. But it it is not under the definition of a Christian, so it can't be considered an exception what the student said. Therefore, no true Scotsman fallacious argument is employed. Remember the Bible defines a Christian as one who can never lose salvation, so the student is false or lying when he says someone is a Christian who is not OSAS. It would only be a No True Scotsman if I were to admit to you what the student said was a valid exception, but I do not. So that blows your theory out the window.

As to the matter of falsifiability you mentioned, sure you can falsify Christianity if it was false. You would be able to do one of two things or both: 1) show how the universe could exist without God and overturn the MFA and 4SPFG, or 2) find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs about the resurrection of Jesus.

Since you fail to be able to do so in either case, you're admitting God exists and Jesus is God. Praise the Lord!

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Dude, the earth is not around 6,000 years old, the bible you believe is inerrant isn't, the Jesus you believe is the son of "god" or is "god" most likely didn't exist, a global flood never happened, snakes do not talk, we evolved (which there is mounds of evidence for), so you should do yourself a favor and let go of that "statement of faith" you're holding on to, and start reading some Science books, you'll thank me for it later, when you realize that what you're defending is all myths and fairytales.

Peace,
Eddie

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You're committing the wrong hill fallacy. I am arguing over here, but you respond by arguing about something else unrelated on another hill. I don't believe the earth is 6000 years old, but 4.5 billion years old. And I believe the universe is 13.7 billion years old. The significance of the 6000 years is that was when God breathed in the breath of life, directly creating man's spirit, into the pre-Adamic body, and when the spirit made contact with the body man became a living soul who had a spirit and a body. What this means is that since about 6000 years ago when man became God-conscious, he would never cease to exist when he died.

I have heard of thousands and thousands of arguments to try to disprove the inerrancy of the Bible and never once have any of them panned out. Moreover, you don't even need to worry about the inerrancy of the Bible, but by treating it like any other historical document you can glean certain facts. These minimal facts lead inextricably to the proof the resurrection happened and that Jesus is God. Amen.

The flood in the Bible was a local flood. Think of it in terms of their known world. They didn't know there was a South America back then for example. The talking snake is just the communication by an evil spirit through the snake. The snake is not actually talking. It is performed through the spirit of demonic spirits.

The Bible agrees the body came from dust (Gen. 2.7). This is what you call evolution. We don't dispute this. Rather we say evolution could not begin without the hand of God because you fail to reproduce abiogenesis. We even show there has not been enough interatomic interactions in the history of the universe for this to be possible. For the first replicating single-celled organism to come into being requires, therefore, requires God to do it.

Once you see all the mistakes you have just made in your argumentation, realize you are just living a lie in the fairy tale and myth of a universe that always existed or started up from nothing. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. You might want to stop listening to quacks like Martin Wagner from the Atheist Experience Show or Michael Martin, Case Against Christianity, for starters.

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Originally Posted by EddieSchultz62

You got that wrong...I have researched both sides, and found creation/ID, the bible, gods, the Jesus story etc....have no evidence to support them. They're all accepted with faith, and faith alone. You are the one that believes only what the bible says, so you're the one that has shut your mind down, not me.

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The evidence was already given which you didn't challenge. It is not enough to say that it is not evidence, but you have to show it. What you do is accept on blind faith atheism is true and that God of the Bible is not, but you don't show it. I believe in the Bible because it shows itself to be true, and I don't know how to disprove it just like you, but I give into reality whereas you keep shutting your mind down.

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If you believe in a god, but I don't, so every choice I make in life is made by me, and my judgement.

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We both have the choice to go to Hell. You chose Hell. I chose life.

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Just like I figured, you missed the point. Those that follow a statement of faith believe the bible to be the word of "god", etc.... that is why they say Evolution isn't true, and that the Universe isn't billions of years old. Once a person accepts a statement of faith for what they believe, they don't even want to research anything else that opposes their gods word. And once again, you get the title of being the one who shuts down your mind, due to your s of f.

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You're missing the point. Christians believe evolution is true and the universe is billions of years old so it wouldn't make much sense to argue that we do not, for then you would be sinning bearing false witness. This is another example of shutting your mind down. Realize you don't want to research anything else even God because you have decided God does not exist even though you have no evidence to support your claim. Whereas Christians are free to research everything even God and atheism. We are willing to examine every attempt to disprove God, but you are not willing to examine the data that proves atheism is false. Prove this for yourself by realizing you didn't address the main points above.

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After reading what I already replied to, I think you can clearly see which one of us is the Zombie, shutting their mind down, and not dealing with reality. Your reality is that the bible is inerrant and the word of your god. My reality is that I accept things once I research them and they have evidence to support them. Why can't you guys see this? You, believe things based on faith. I, and others who use our brains to think about all things, base what we accept on evidence.

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You don't accept evidence, because the evidence was already given and you didn't even try to challenge the evidence. In short, nature always needs a cause so it can't start up from nothing, nor can it always have existed because you would have happened already having had an eternity to do so. Therefore, there must exist the uncreated Creator who proves Himself in Christ because you can't find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs. Do you see how you keep avoiding this matter?

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I personally don't believe in a place called hell. But since you do, and you're the one shutting your mind down, have fun in that lake of fire for all eternity. ;)

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Realize you actually prove Hell exists because you can't overturn the proof for God and who God is, who spoke on Hell more than anyone. Those who refuse what Jesus did for them on the cross will go to the Lake of Fire. How sad for you.

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Don't waste my time unless you have evidence for your god's existence, or that Evolution isn't a good Scientific theory, as well as a fact, which is accepted as so by over 99% of Scientists throughout the world.

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You're wasting your own time because the evidence was given and you didn't respond to it. Constantly avoiding is not being intellectually honest with yourself. You're still arguing on that other hill. Christians believe in evolution, but evolution can't explain how it came into being. Do you see how you are like a zombie, like a clanging bell?

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You see, the only thing that matters to you is to defend your god and his bible, at all cost, even if it means lying, and making stuff up.

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The only thing that matters to you is express your hatred of your Creator by all means necessary. Whereas I just go with where the evidence leads me. If the evidence leads me to atheism then I am an atheist. If it leads to me to God in Christ then I am a Christian. Amen. The only difference between us is I give into the evidence whereas you do not. You prefer to remain eternally separated from God, so you can see why you belong in Hell. Christians consider lying and making stuff up to be a sin, so perhaps you are projecting your own condition onto me in that you need to lie and make stuff up to defend yourself.

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Have you even tried to learn about Evolution, maybe took a course in Evolutionary Biology? If not, and since you CAN question your god, I suggest you do so, and get back to me with your findings once you've been educated on the subject. If you don't want to, then you're just shutting your mind down....once again.

Peace,
Eddie

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I believe in evolution. Why do you keep arguing I don't believe in evolution when I do? Isn't that illogical. Learn about evolutionary biology and discover nowhere is it able to empirically prove something in nature comes from nothing or the first single-celled replicating organism came from inanimate nature. Why believe something you have no evidence for? Evolution gives glory to God.

You should be able to come up with a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples' beliefs but still you do not. Wake up!

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Originally Posted by EddieSchultz62

Why aren't comments allowed on the video page anymore, after I told you that you had 62 thumbs down, and no thumbs up? This is typical of christian's, just want to be heard, don't want to hear. Your mind shutting down again?? :)

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I like to transfer the discussion here from Youtube because it is more organized and understandable. The organizational structure of Youtube discussions is hard to follow. You know that.

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Originally Posted by EddieSchultz62

"God" didn't created the Universe in 6 literal 24 hour days, therefor "god" doesn't exist.

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The Bible doesn't say the universe was created in six literal 24 hour days. Again, you are arguing on the wrong hill. I am over here on this other hill with what the Bible says. The Bible says don't sin bearing false witness. That's a sin. Gen. 1.1 says God created. He took 13.7 billion years to create. Gen. 1.2 says then God made desolate and waste because of the sin of the inhabitants of earth's earliest ages, about 65 million years ago. Since then God has restored creation summed up by the six literal 24 hour days.

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We evolved over millions of years, we have evidence for this, therefor there is no need for a god, and the creation story you believe didn't happen.

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Christians believe in evolution, so you are still arguing on the wrong hill. Why be a zombie? Pre-Adamic man evolved over millions of years then at the right time about 6000 years ago the body was fully formed as God willed it then God breathed in the breath of life, directly creating man's spirit, and when it made contact with the body man became a living soul with a spirit and a body. You need God because the universe wouldn't exist without God. And you need God because your sin leads to death and the second death which is Hell. Praise God Jesus paid for all our sins on the cross to save whosoever is willing to receive what He did for us. Amen. Evolution wouldn't exist without God. Evolution didn't just start up all by itself from nothing. That's silly. And that which has a mind, will, emotion, conscience and self-consciousness needs a being to create us with these qualities. The elemental table alone can't do it.

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Again, you're the one shutting your mind, not me. I have researched both sides, and I am going to guess you haven't done the same, because your statement of faith is something you value over anything that opposes your god and his bible.

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I am not sure what statement of faith you are reading, but the reason I have faith in God is because God proved Himself, and you admit you can't overturn that proof. Praise the Lord! Don't you realize you are leading people to Christ because you can't overturn the proof?

http://biblocality.com/forums/showth...Facts-Approach

Obviously you have not researched either side, because I keep repeating the proof to you and you keep avoiding it. Why shut your mind down? How is that being honest with yourself? I can't overturn the proof for God and atheism shown to be false, so I give into the evidence. Why don't you?

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Now prove to me that your god exists. And prove to me that Evolution is a lie, a fraud, as my christian brother says it is. He couldn't show me any evidence for it, just continues to claim it....and I am sure you'll do the same.

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Why ask for me to prove God exists after it was already done? All I need to do is wait for your response. Why do you want me to prove evolution is a lie when I believe it? How can you have a Christian brother if you are not a Christian? If he is your brother then he is not a Christian. Sounds like that person you think is a Christian is not a Christian. Lots of people think someone is a Christian who is not. They usually do this because that person is wrong about something, so you assume that is Christianity to try to debase God's word.

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BTW, you didn't ask me if you could post my replioes to your youtube video on your christian site, so please delete all of it. Can't you do this one on one, instead of needing the people that believe as you do to back you up?

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I am allowed to do this. Who is backing me up here in this thread, since nobody has posted but me? It's just you and me talking here. And it is easy to understand and follow unlike other places you want to discuss. I can understand why you want it removed because this information exposes your unwillingness to deal with the 4 Step Proof for God, so it makes you look bad.

My prayer is that this leads people to Christ because they can see how you evade the matter. We shall know you by your fruits.

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Originally Posted by EddieSchultz62

It fascinates me that you and others who are believers that the bible is the inerrant word of god can just read that and automatically claim that it is evidence. Do you think that evidence would stand up in a court of law if you were to present it as evidence? It wouldn't, so why should you or I believe it is factual evidence that a god exists?

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The lawyer who holds the record in the Guinness Book of Records for 245 cases won in a row said the case for the resurrection of Jesus is the best case he has ever seen.

The most famous lawyer of the 19th century who did more jurisprudence than all the lawyers in Europe combined said, "Every document apparently ancient coming from the proper repository or custody and bearing on its face no evident marks of forgery, the law presumes to be genuine and devolves on the opposing party the burden of proving it to be otherwise."

Since almost all skeptical scholars for the reasons they give (see the work done by Gary R. Habermas) concede the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings, then using the Minimal Facts Approach we have a substantial, even a perfect proof. Thus, the burden is on you.

Actually, if you really get into it, you realize God couldn't produce a better proof and establish true free will at the same time, and including the proper balance of mercy and justice, and both common grace and special grace of the gospel. Remember, God is no respecter of persons (Acts 10.34). So He doesn't show partiality.

If you can't find a naturalistic explanation, you lose the case in a court of law. Yup, you are one of the bad people because you will avoid this again and again and again, even when you are in Hell keeping yourself there...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbrbx...h+div-1f-21-HM

Think how crazy you are that you would rather be in Hell than with God!

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Originally Posted by EddieSchultz62

You've been told this before....just because Science doesn't know exactly how things came into existence, it's not logical to just say "god did it", especially when all you have is your link that says it's proof for "god's" existence.

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Watch the videos, that is not the argument used at all as was said time and again, but you never listen. I am on this hill over here, and you are arguing on the wrong hill. Come meet me over here.

To repeat, science proves the uncreated Creator exists because nature always has a cause from something due to the overwhelming preponderance of evidence of trillions of causes in nature beyond a reasonable doubt, and no hard evidence something from nothing, so nature can't come from nothing, nor always have existed, because you would have happened already, having had an eternity to do so.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyMc7U256lA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YfpgOKtiZDM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PfT3ch9gvNA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgM4o1o-IeA

Which video do you like most?

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Originally Posted by EddieSchultz62

How can't there be an eternity of the past? Something eternal neither has a beginning nor it has an end. The fact that a human mind can't slightly imagine an eternity, doesn't mean it isn't. Talking mathematically doesn't make you sound even more intelectual. How can conscience have exponential progression as it is something it can be hardly measured nowadays? Your last sentence just sounds like something you just thought about and typed, without even looking at the keyboard

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It was already explained there can't be an eternity of the past of cause and effects because you would have happened already having had an eternity to do so. You don't need to know everything that entails. You can measure conscience. For example, human sacrifices that were so prevalent among the nations don't exist anymore. The murder and crime rate per capita are down dramatically. The sentence you were referring to stands: "Similarly, heat death would be far greater than it is for a universe(s) older than 13.7 billion years, and any alleged universe we were in would have undergone far more heat death than has already occurred."

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Excuse me? What part of the conservative law of energy haven't you understood? If god can be so eternal, why can't the universe be? I agree with the part that everything has a cause, living in a natural universe this can be easily demonstrated. Every action has a reaction, just we humans can act according to our own decisions. Nature doesn't take decisions as we do, therefore those ramifications in our whole universe could be as good as wrong. The rest of the paragraph still puzzles me.

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The universe exists within time, but God does not. God is greater than time. The uncreated Creator outside of time and space must exist because nature can't always have existed since we would have happened already having had an eternity to do so. Whether our actions are right or wrong doesn't change the law of cause and effect and the first law of thermodynamics that something can't come from nothing. The rest of the paragraph was simple: "And that which does not exist can't produce anything for it doesn't exist! For the atheist no time existed [in the singularity], therefore according to him without time this universe can't come into being and we should not exist."

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How can we misrepresent God? How can you be so sure of your own interpretacion of God of the bible? The bible is the only thing you have regarding your god, and nothing in there has been written directly fro your allegied deity. It is natural that we also use the bible to talk about your god, because that's the only thing we have against the belief.

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I am just taking data that you and almost every sane human being accepts, when you conceded, "I agree with the part that everything has a cause." Therefore, if there was this infinite regress of cause and effects, then there would be an eternity going on before now so this point would never be reached, and you should not exist. And you would have existed already by now having had an eternity to do so. Obviously, your infinite regress theory is inherently contradictory and therefore, false. So God must exist, that is, the uncreated Creator outside of nature, time and space.

All 66 books are written by the hand of God through people. Since it is so well reported that the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead, then you would need to find a naturalistic explanation to account for the origin of the disciples' beliefs. The burden is on you. I don't think you will succeed when nobody has ever been able to find one. Surely two millennia has been enough time.

I think you missed the point of Step 3: "Don't misrepresent God of the Bible in forming your arguments, otherwise you are on the wrong hill and not dealing with the character and nature of God being shown to you on this other hill." Forming arguments from your misreading the Bible is an invalid approach. It's a sin bearing false witness.

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... Same as number 1. You repeated a whole bunch in this "argument". How are you then suggesting an eternity of the past when talking about this god? And none of us are suggesting things outside of this realm, because this one "realm" is all we have until now. Why the need of having a supernatural realm outside this universe? Even if there is one, how can you be so sure it's the realm of your specific god? Have you said this to the aliens in another galaxies that have deities?

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Step 4 is important because atheists once they realize there can't be infinite regress in the natural realm they special plead for a supernatural infinite regress, but the same law applies we would not still be sinning to the extent we still do along the exponential progression of conscience we are clearly on. I am not "suggesting an eternity of the past" but showing you that it is impossible, thus the need for God. And gods creating gods gets you nowhere but realizing we would have happened already having had an eternity to do so, for we would have approximated into that alleged past supernatural eternity. What is left with is the uncreated Creator all alone by Himself outside of nature, outside of time and space. How do we know God of the Bible is the right one? Because He proves Himself by the resurrection. Always remember, you still can't find a naturalistic explanation for the origin of the disciples beliefs and none are more personal than Jesus who enters His creation. Other religions have distant ethereal gods that are unable to do what Jesus in effectively dealing with the sin problem. Perhaps they are too selfish. We are not saved by works lest any man should boast.

You want to claim there are aliens without evidence and that their god is superior to God of the Bible? All we have is evidence. You have no evidence for aliens or their god. But we have evidence life could not exist on any planet in the universe but this one in this solar system and this galaxy. There are over 800 variables required for life to exist on a planet. There are not enough planets in the universe.

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How can clearly invisible things be clearly visibly seen?

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By the evidence and when the invisible takes on a body for us to see Him visually.

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I am not scared of Hell and don't believe in fairy tales.

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You're not scared of going to Hell I can see that, so you belong in Hell and prefer to believe in the fairy tale of infinite regress and that we came into being from bouncing atoms that have no mind or self-consciousness or conscience to degrade morally. You don't mind being illogical believing in infinite regress even though you would have happened already if there was. Satan wants you to be that mindless.

Logic states since almost all scholars concede the disciples truly believed they saw Jesus alive from the dead in various group settings, then you would need a naturalistic explanation. Shutting your mind down is a hellish way to live. Just know that for a Christian to be in your shoes for just one day is a deplorable way to live for us which you might find quite normal for yourself because it is all you know. But we can sense the difference in our being. You don't know there is something better out there for you. Just know there is a life that is so much better than what you are going through, but right now your oblivious in your own demise.

Eventually it gets to the point where you would never give your life to Christ because it becomes more painful for you to do so, giving up self, than spend eternity burning forever in the Lake of Fire. I guess there really is such a thing as a bad person!

How truly sad for you.