Those not found in the book of life?

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12-23-2006, 02:18 PM
Y'shua friend.

Those not found in the book of life?

Does your BIBLE say in the word of God that the lost sinners, share the same gift of eternal life as do the redeemed in Jesus Christ?

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
We are given a contrast here, the one is to perish, and the other is to have eternal life. But don’t the wicked live forever separated in Hell also?

Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. So what is their everlasting punishment?

Rev. 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Rev. 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Mortal death is a temporary separation from God, while as the second spiritual death is a permanent eternal separation from God. Death being a curse is a punishment in of itself, the Bible commands a punishment of death for many crimes, yet the spirit that rejected Yeshua HaMashiach will be punished by a painful everlasting second death. 2Cor. 2:15-16.

Death in itself is a separation from God. Ps.6:5. 49:19-20. 88:11-12. 115:17. 146:4. Pr.21:16. Ecc.9:5,10. Isa.38:18.

How cleverly Satan has portrayed our loving God, to be the cruelest most sadistic monster anyone could ever imagine. My God being a God of compassionate love, can not by His very Holy and loving nature, become so sadistic as to create a living creature just to torture it and watch it suffer for all eternity, if it should not preform as He planned for it to. How will we teach others, that our God is a God of great love and mercy, while contradicting ourselves through heresies portraying the same God to be a monster that is more heartless and sadistic than Hitler, or Stalin could have ever been had they been given a thousand years to accomplish it? Is this the image of a Holy, Just, and righteous God, that we tell men they should love and pattern their lives after? If so, then when my dog disobeys me, I would be a godly righteous man in beating and torturing him endlessly every day of his life so long as he lived.

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Amen!

Y’shua friend. Shalom! :yes:
12-23-2006, 11:36 PM
Churchwork

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Originally Posted by Y'shua friend.

Does your BIBLE say in the word of God that the lost sinners, share the same gift of eternal life as do the redeemed in Jesus Christ?

No. The unsaved have eternal separation, not eternal life.

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John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
We are given a contrast here, the one is to perish, and the other is to have eternal life. But don’t the wicked live forever separated in Hell also?

Yes. This is the second death, but they don't have life. The term "death" here doesn't mean annihilation, but eternal separation. For example, non-Christians today are dead to God? Yet they are still walking and breathing. Therefore, what this means is that they have no communion and are separated from God.

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Acts 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
1 John 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. So what is their everlasting punishment?
Rev. 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Rev. 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The Bible says "death and hades were cast into the lake of fire" (see NKJV which corrected the KJV, NLT, NIV, ESV, NASB, RSV, ASV, Youngs, Darby, HNV), not death and hell. How strange it would be to throw hell into hell.

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Mortal death is a temporary separation from God, while as the second spiritual death is a permanent eternal separation from God. Death being a curse is a punishment in of itself, the Bible commands a punishment of death for many crimes, yet the spirit that rejected Yeshua HaMashiach will be punished by a painful everlasting second death. 2Cor. 2:15-16.

Mortal death is irrelevant since we will all be resurrected either before the 1000 years or after the 1000 years. Just because when I go to rest in the good side of Hades does not mean I am separated from God. He is omnipresent, as I wait to be resurrected at the consummation of this age (1 Thess. 4.15-17) with my brothers and sisters.

We all must die because the flesh is utterly corrupted. It can not be refined or improved or saved. It has one verdict which is death. The second death is the eternal separation from God, when those who face the consequences of their rejecting salvation are resurrected at the end of the 1000 years to be judged at Great White Throne and cast into hell for all eternity-all those waiting for resurrection in the bad side of hades to be judged for hell.

Lazarus went down to paradise below, a waiting for resurrection. He is not separated from God, but God gives him a paradise below to wait for resurrection to paradise above so as to return with Christ unto rewards if accounted worthy; if not, to spend the 1000 years in outer darkness (which has no fire or furnace about it and is not hell) to be made ready for the new city in the new earth.

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Death in itself is a separation from God. Ps.6:5. 49:19-20. 88:11-12. 115:17. 146:4. Pr.21:16. Ecc.9:5,10. Isa.38:18.

Death is never desirable, but the natural consequences of being born into sin. Because there is no praise from the grave, we may call this a timeless unawares-sleep until resurrection. You can't know anything down in hades (sheol) if you are sleeping awaiting resurrection. Some call this soul sleep, an acceptable description. "The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence" (Ps. 115.17). Your thoughts will perish in sheol, but upon resurrection they are revived. To be dead to God is to have no communion with Him because eternal conscious separation is the verdict, already known even while waiting in sheol to be resurrected after the thousand years. All people are made in God's image, so all people since Adam are to be resurrected. The image of God can never cease to exist. That you would try to annihilated the image of God in some is not right at all. A person can be destroyed and perish which is to be allotted the lake of fire (hell). Once you die, you get no more reward in this life (Ecc. 9.5); "there will be no work or planning or knowledge or wisdom" (v.10) there. You get no more chances once you die (Is. 38.18).

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How cleverly Satan has portrayed our loving God, to be the cruelest most sadistic monster anyone could ever imagine. My God being a God of compassionate love, can not by His very Holy and loving nature, become so sadistic as to create a living creature just to torture it and watch it suffer for all eternity, if it should not preform as He planned for it to. How will we teach others, that our God is a God of great love and mercy, while contradicting ourselves through heresies portraying the same God to be a monster that is more heartless and sadistic than Hitler, or Stalin could have ever been had they been given a thousand years to accomplish it? Is this the image of a Holy, Just, and righteous God, that we tell men they should love and pattern their lives after? If so, then when my dog disobeys me, I would be a godly righteous man in beating and torturing him endlessly every day of his life so long as he lived.
Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Amen!

The flesh will accuse God for God having to eternally separate people into hell for all eternity. Don't blame God for that choice people have made for themselves. If a person only has the meager consequence of ceasing to exist, then it really doesn't matter what they do in this life, but if they are required to be resurrected, then they shall face that consequence righteously according to God's will.

God needs not for us to plan to be saved, for man is not saved by the will of the flesh, nor its passions. The reason God describes vividly the very undesirable place that is hell is because he doesn't want you to go there, but if you insist by denying resurrection unto consciousness in hell, then it is your portion, for Jesus spoke on hell more than any other as a place of eternal separation from God, not a place of annihilation. To annihilate a soul made in God's image is a very evil thing to do.

Whenever you have a verse that could go either way on a point, it is important to start first with something that has a clear teaching. After looking at Psalm 37; 145.20 and Is. 1.28, now look at the verses where Christ died for everyone. After you do that, then see Dan. 12.2 which says both the saved and unsaved will be resurrected for everlasting.

There is no contempt in a soul that ceases to exist, but there is in hell. Those who go to hell are intrinsically valuable people made in God's image. C.S. Lewis wrote the doctrine of hell is "one of the chief grounds on which Christianity is attacked as barbarous and the goodness of God impugned" [The Problem of Pain]. "Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt." (Dan. 12.2). Everyone is going to be resurrected, whether to everlasting life or everlasting contempt. Everlasting existence is the same everlasting either way, except the destination is different. Ceasing to exist is not an everlasting, nor is the resurrection of the damned to lead to annihilation. God is not going to resurrect the unsaved then annihilate them. J.P. Moreland says the flame language is figurative. Death put to an end is because there will be no more death, so the everlasting flames in punishment is meant as a figure of speech for judgment and eternal separation, not a literal burning. In Heb. 12.29, God is called a consuming fire. Yet nobody thinks God is a cosmic Bunsen burner. Flames pertain to God's judgment.

Satan accuses God of being contradictory that He requires Hell for the unsaved, but nonetheless, it is according to His righteousness. Committing suicide thinking you can just cease to exist, I assure you is no way out. If the consequences of nuking ten cities is merely to cease to exist, how unrighteous God would be. Let go of the heresy of annihilation, for it has no consequences to it that are righteous and holy.

Your dog is not made in God's image, so it is wrong to be abusive to animals who are disobedient or if you are a human that rejects hell; God will just send you there and you will find out what you accused it of is not like you think. God does not beat you endlessly in hell and torture you as you view it in your limited mind. That is just your misreading of the Word of God and overlooking Dan. 12.2.

Understand your confusion is because of the KJV. Where God describes, "Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire" (Matt. 5.22), He is describing Hell in the most undesirable way because nothing is worse and He doesn't want you to go there; but, be sure that though God does this, it is not to be known exactly what it is like till you get there. It's like a parent telling her child not to do that thing again, otherwise... Usually this otherwise is highly exaggerated. "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom (Luke 16.23). There is a very serious torment in the bad side of hades before being resurrected for eternal separation in hell. Yet again, notice this: hades is really timeless unawares. To have torment then is God exaggerating the point to express how much He doesn't want you to go there. Whatever this torment is, it is not very pleasant to be sure. Imagine having an eternal regret.

Romans 3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged. Amen!
12-24-2006, 12:07 AM
Churchwork

God honors people in hell for their free-choice made in His image to want to live out existence eternally separated from God, and that includes most people who reject Hell as conscious separation for eternity, because the Bible says we shall know them by their fruit. If a person were to be annihilated instead, then that person would just be a means to an end, instead of intrinsically valued.
01-09-2007, 01:11 PM
Y'shua friend.

Y'shua friend.

This reply is but double talk, (1) Seporation from G-d is the state of death, just as death is a seporation from G-d. (2) The only likenes we have to G-d or to His immage, is our ability to reason and choose of our own free will. (3) The parable of the rich man and lazarith, is just that, a PARABLE, to demonstrate a teaching, not an actual advent. Today we would call it a
Hypothetical example.

Y'shua friend. Shalom!
01-09-2007, 04:01 PM
Churchwork

No, this is not double talk, nor do you show, for just declaring it would not count. Yes, we are made in God's image to have the choice, though it is not limited to the will alone, for we are more than just will. We have a conscience and intuition of our spirit able to commune. We have emotion. God often shows His emotion. I believe the parable of the rich man and Lazarus is just a parable because in actuality in hades (timeless unawares below) people sleep and are not conscious until the day of resurrection for them.

Separation from God is never annihilation of the soul. That a person chooses not to be saved, he will resurrected at the end of the millennium. If there is no resurrection for the damned, then it really doesn't matter what the unsaved do, for there is no consequences. The worse thing that could happen to you is that you cease to exist. That would be unrighteous of God if that were the case. God values you. He will never let you be annihilated, though He have to separate you from Him forever a the righteous thing to do.

I believe you have rejected God's plain word: "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection" (Rev. 20.5). The Bible is clear, they live again, to be eternally separated from God.

"For if God spared not the messengers that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;" (2 Peter 2.4).

"The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name" (Rev. 14.10-11).

If the unsaved will be tormented day and night forever in hell with no rest, how can they be annihilated? Torment can't occur if you have been annihilated. "...and these shall go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into life eternal" (Matt. 25.46). "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9.46).

"And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation" (John 5.29). To be resurrected for hell is to be consciously alive and aware in hell forever. These don't sound like words of annihilation: "And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Matt. 13.50).

"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt" (Dan. 12.2).

I believe you will be resurrected to wailing and gnashing of teeth forever if you keep this belief of yours, because you don't believe God's plain Word, so God will show you that it is the case. How can I convince you of anything if don't want to be convinced? You would be asking me to do an impossible thing.
01-12-2007, 09:58 PM
Churchwork

"Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels" . . . "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matthew 25:41, 46) "And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night" (Rev. 14.11).

EVERLASTING PUNISHMENT!

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Originally Posted by Y'shua friend.

It doesn't say wailing and gnashing of teeth forever, nor does it mean such. It is only saying that Hell will be a very painful death, that will cause wailing and gnashing of teeth.

It is temporary for Christians, which Matt. 10.28 is referring to.

If you are annihilated, how can you experience everlasting punishment? Just as the first death does not cause you to cease to exist, nor does the second death. You will get no rest day or night.

Doesn't awaking to everlasting contempt to be conscious since it is an awaking?
"And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame [and] everlasting contempt" (Dan. 12.2).

There is always the problem too with annihilating the image of God. I don't think that is possible. His image will never cease to exist because you are not merely instrumental value, but intrinsic value to God. Always the negative consequence will be for you to lower your conscience if you would merely cease to exist.

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Psalm 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be. Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

By your teaching he still exist, he has only become separated from G-d. But that is not what G-d’s word says, so who is the one that needs to repent of false teaching?

Israel speaks earthy, so v.9 says, "they shall inherit the earth". The wicked disappearing is from earth. And v.11, "meek shall inherit the earth." It's in relation to earth. The same can be said for v.20.

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Maybe their smoke is supposed to bare the image of G-d as it consumes away?

By the same token, according to your thought, then if you are saved and vanish like smoke when you die, the image of God will be in your smoke. Silly argument on your part.

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Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

I didn’t know that anyone had a god who’s image could burn up and become stubble? That must not be the same G-d image you say all of the ungodly sinners represent?

Of all men created in His image, does his physical death make him not in God's image? Then when you die, if you were saved, you would not be in God's image. Considering what Matt. 25.46 said about eternal punishment, then isn't Mal. 4.1 just talking about the ending presence of the wicked on earth itself, and speaks in earthly terms: stubble, branches, roots, ashes, and feet on earth?

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Malachi 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the Lord of hosts.

Who would have ever thought that ashes could go on living and suffering forever? When you can give me a good Biblical reference, which proves these scriptures to be wrong. Then I will throw my Bible away, and start reading from yours. But private interpretations, or doctrines of men, and speculations don’t prove anything. Only a good foundation of scriptural exegesis too support the truth. Amen!

Whoever thought your ashes could go on living and have eternal life forever? I don't want you to throw your Bible away, assuming it is the same Bible. So why is it that your exalted words don't bear out with regard to Matt. 25.46?

Matt. 25.46 proves eternal separation in hell is an eternal conscious separation of punishment. Dead men aren't punished. They're dead.
01-12-2007, 10:53 PM
Churchwork

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Originally Posted by Y'shua friend

Show me where the Bible says any believer is cast into outer darknes?

Non-overcomer believers spend a temporary period in outer darkness, outside the light of the reward of returning (Jude 14,15) with Christ to reign. Notice it has no fire or furnace about it, since it is not hell.

Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Not all believers "overcometh" (Rev. 2.7,11,17,26; 3.5,12,21) and are given something over and above salvation, for not all believers meet the qualifications of those in 20.4, keep the word of His patience (3.10), are watchful an prayerful (Luke 21.36, Matt. 24.42) and keep the conduct of Matt. 5-7.