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Do you think these people that were raptured were raptured before the Tribulation or at the last trumpet?
They seem sorrowful and one person is crouched down in tears, yet they were in church and appeared to be believers.
Does this mean that though they were saved they were not ready to be received?
There is an IF, because both the taken and the left are saved in Matt. 24.37,40-41, so verse 42 says be watchful otherwise you will be left to pass through the Tribulation just like how Enoch was raised up then Noah had to pass through tribulation. Any who love God, who can deny this?Quote:
Originally Posted by A Believer
Neither do those who died represent martyrs then according to your view, so it goes both ways. What we can say for certainty is Enoch was raptured before the tribulation, but Noah, who represents rapture too had to go through it in terms of the time period no matter how well he was protected in the ark. I would consider his undertaking quite arduous on the stormy waters day and night waiting for the promise, even though comforted in the ark as believers comforted in their faith. He does not represent martyrdom as some will be martyred in the Tribulation like perhaps if any were saved in his day but died in the flood, they could be considered martyrs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Just A Clay Pot
Who can say Moses was not directly impacted, for he was stuck in a situation he had to remain in until the stormy waters subsided? Though he was not martyred, which happens to some believers who get caught in the storm.
Its the same with Abraham and Lot. Both Abraham (the intercessor) and Lot (who passed through tribulation) were saved too. All believers who need to pass through and were not received first will have to go through the time of testing, but shall come out raptured.
If you were raptured and yet had to go through a time of trouble like Noah did in the ark before you could find dry land and this was demanded of every believer, would that be right and just of a loving God to do that to us?
As an Overcomer Believer said, if you are truly saved, seeketh to overcome in Christ so that you may be accounted worthy to escape the hour of trial.
Jesus is the loving bridegroom and He would not allow believers who still cling to the world to be received when they are not yet ready to be taken, so they are left to undergo testing.
What will happen to you when you see 5 million people raptured, because you thought no matter how fleshly you were you assumed you would be with them? Would you accuse them?
Though it is true there are the unsaved tares who go to church, would there not also be those in the church who are saved, but cling to the world as though unsaved? Should they not be treated by God?Quote:
Originally Posted by Betty
Others object that rapture is part of redemption, that since redemption is according to grace, rapture cannot be based on the concept of worthiness. In reply, it needs to be pointed out that while the act of changing (see 1 Cor. 15.51-52) is indeed according to grace, the act of being taken (rapture) is according to works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Third Day
I would hate to see you as one of those crouched down in that video because though you have eternal life which can never be lost it is possible you did not keep the Word of His patience, the conduct of Matt. 5-7, and were prayerful and watchful to escape all these things which will come upon the whole earth.
Indeed, if all one needs to do is appeal to God to be accepted for salvation, it is man's doing, and it is just a matter of time and a person could lose their salvation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Just A Clay Pot
If on the other hand, salvation is given to some people, but not others without regard first for their choice, there is the problem of being a robot, which could never glorify God, and God making people go to hell without regard for their choice. That would seem to be unrighteous and unholy as taught in calvinism and antinomian for those who were saved.
As in all things with God the obvious choices are quite often wrong. There is yet another way, the only way where salvation can still be assured by His promise, but uniquely place believers in a position of accountability in which the person has a personal relationship with God to have the choice to be a carnal Christian or a spiritual Christian with consequences with respect to the kingdom.
We see this third way in John 17. 'They believe you sent me' (v.8) for God foreknew their free-choice ('all who will ever believe in me because of their testimony' v.20) 'before the world began,' (v.24); this is how 'they were always yours, and you gave them to me...' (v.6), and Jesus said, 'I have revealed you to them' (v.26) that convinced those who received Him. Jesus said to His Father, He 'will keep on revealing you' (v.26) so you may have faith more abundantly, and to His Father, He said, by 'your love for me may be in them and I in them' (v.26).
'Apostles' are not the Church, but the workers for the Church. Nowhere in the Bible do you find all Christians called apostles. All Christians are priests and a royal priesthood, but not everyone is directly commissioned by God to be an apostle.
Some people say that the rapture of the church cannot be divided because the body of Christ cannot be divided. It should be noted in reply, however, that the body is a figure of speech which signifies one life. If the body is taken literally, then there is already division today because the Lord is now in heaven, Paul has already died, we remain living on earth, and some believers are yet to be born.
May we see the unity of the Church universal, but the righteous requirement of God in the timings of the raptures. Since the dead will not go through the Great Tribulation, would it not be unfair to the living for them to go through it? Will not the righteous God be unjust in this regard? In response, let me say that we do need to be concerned; for during the millennium each and every believer (including all believers who died prior to the Great Tribulation) will receive, as a consequence of appearing before Christ’s judgment seat, the things done in the body while alive, according to what he has done whether it be good or bad (2 Cor. 5.10).
Is the church not already divided in one sense with saved souls in many different ways of organizing? Is that not significantly more than spreading the raptures across a meager 7 year period? Is not there again a rapture after a 1000 years, and shall those who were saved after the Tribulation not be raptured at that time? Has not Enoch and Elijah been raised up? and those in Matt. 27.52? These are far greater dividings in terms of time.
In a backward sense yes, since the 5 wise virgins represent those overcomer believers who receive the reward of reigning in the 1000 years, so of course, they would be raptured at the first rapture if they were alive at that time, and the same goes for the profitable servant. But, specifically speaking they are not addressing the first rapture according to readiness. Most overcomer believers are raptured at the last trumpet, not the first rapture.Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimmie
It has been my experience that I can't even begin to start talking to my brothers and sisters in Christ about deeper Biblical truths that help bolster their spiritual lives, so I find partial rapture an excellent tool to find some common ground to begin doing so. As difficult as it is to convince people of separate rapture, it is still much easier to grasp than these other deeper truths. If they can begin to trust the evidence given for partial rapture, perhaps they can begin to look at the evidence for other Biblical truths that the Lord has place as a burden on my heart to share.
If you were to ask 100 people what their end-times view is (assuming they had a view), it would probably (based on the number of RC, EC, Pentecostals, and other denoms) look something like this as my best guess:Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimmie
1. 50 historicists (amill, postmill or various preterisms)
2. 26 pretrib or midtrib
3. 23 posttrib or prewrath
4. 1 separate rapture
This has been my experience based on various polls I have seen such as these ones and just talking to people.
I am being very generous too with the 1 separate rapture believer. I think it is more like 1 in a thousand. At any rate, to say it is on the rise from such low numbers is inconsequential, but what I find most intriguing is pretribbers and posttribbers keep arguing with each other, and right there before their eyes all along is partrib. I think this speaks for the power of the flesh that people prefer to remain in their boxes. People really don't know how to respond to partial rapture, because as you can see, they are so unprepared, having rarely if ever come across someone like me in the body of Christ. I don't deny this makes me feel very special to God that I have preserved His Word. I feel like Jeremiah preaching for 40 years and nobody listening and yet it is such a wonderful blessing. This is true on other matters as well such as 1) our being tripartite, 2) gap restoration, 3) osas arminian, and 5) Scriptural locality (e.g., regional Apostles of the churches in Asia Minor appoint Elders of the church of Ephesus and other church locales in Asia Minor; there is no church of USA or Ontario or Asia Minor-never does God consider the region of the churches as the church locale, and never is a region of churches for Apostles every considered a very large area such as all of India or all of USA).
The reason some will not be ready to be received at the first rapture is because they do not fulfill the condition set forth for first rapture in Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36, and Matt. 24.42.Quote:
Originally Posted by WCG777
It is not something you do that puts you through the Tribulation, but it is something that you don't do as indicated in these three verses. Just as God has 144,000 virgin firstfruits in mind in Rev. 14.1-5, so too does He have a specific number who will be raptured at the first rapture to be included in the man-child overcomers (12.5) raised to the throne (7.9) before the trumpets of the Tribulation commence (ch.8ff).
All believers have Jesus in their heart, for we are saved with eternal life which can never be lost. But some believers, most in fact, are still tied down to the world as though like a balloon tied down to a poll (a play on words) and do not have a spirit of rapture. Therefore, they will need to go through the time of testing, because they were not yet ready to be received. As one writer puts it, 'there are advanced parties and harbingers in every sphere', which explains the conditions God set forth for first rapture.
Wouldn't you love to stop arguing with posttribbers, to accept the harmony of first rapture according to readiness before the first trumpet and the last harvest resurrection and rapture at the last trumpet (pre-wrath)? This is God's will, and for you to seek after the prize (hidden treasure, Matt. 13) to be included in Rev. 20.4 (notice not all believers fulfill these three groups mentioned) and not all "overcometh" as some shall in each church period (Rev. 2 & 3). Instead of being fearful you might have to go through Tribulation, accept it with grace and confidence that you had yet some things to overcome causing you not to be ready at the first rapture; then you would not blame those who were raptured first.
Though it is true we all sin and the flesh can still rear its ugly head while we are in these bodies, this does not mean God does not have those who overcometh, otherwise He would not have called us to do so and specifically mentioned those overcomers in Rev. 20.4 or used such overcoming words as... "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name" (3.8). To the other churches Jesus has something against them, but not so here. And as Jesus calls us to overcometh, and says, "To him that overcometh will I grant..." (v.21), is Jesus talking about overcoming after rapture or before? Obviously, it is before, in the here and now. Let us not forget this.
Therefore, some will have attained a certain level that God deems is the pinnacle to call forth for the first rapture to begin the parousia of Christ.