Rambo123UK,
Quote Originally Posted by Rambo123UK
Just because someone is willing to die for a belief doesn't make it true.
That's right. But people don't go to their death for something they know is a lie, but they really do believe in the reason why they are doing it. Similarly, the apostles really believed they talked with Jesus, touched him and ate with him. And since hallucination is not possible in multiple settings of different groups, and no plausible other explanation has been given by non-believers, what is the reasonable conclusion then?
The gospels disagree with each other on many points
The gospels never disagreed with each other once. The burden of the proof is on you to show it.
The post crucifixion accounts do not agree
The post crucifixion accounts all agree. The burden of the proof is on you.
The gospel of Mark originally had no resurrection. That part was written later
That is not a certainty. Plus, Mark was written about AD 59. Galatians, Thessalonians, Corinthians (1 Cor. 15 speaks on early creeds and resurrection testimonies Paul receiving from James and Peter, also mentioned in Acts, within a couple years after the death of Christ) and Romans all precede Mark's completion of his book. So if there was evolution in the gospel for a resurrection you would expect these earlier documents to make no mention of resurrection. Jesus said "Everyone will see the Son of Man arrive on the clouds with great power and glory" (Mark 13.27) which is compared to "I saw someone who looked like the son of man coming with the clouds of heaven" (Dan. 7.13). How can the Son of Man return if He is not resurrected? Jesus teaches about resurrection in Mark: Jesus said, "Your problem is you don't know the Scriptures, and you don't know the power of God. For when the dead rise, they won't be married...You made a serious error" (Mark 12.24-25,27). And Jesus said, "the Son of Man...they will mock him, spit on him, beat him with their whips, and kill him, but after three days he will rise again" (Mark 10.33,34). There is nothing wrong with Mark not mentioning the resurrection accounts. The 4 Gospels are not designed to repeat everything, but the fact that they show such a wide difference, even leaving the resurrection out in Mark, shows the independent accounts. Yet they agree completely. Mark incidentally is not one of the apostles and may not have seen Christ personally, so maybe that is why there is no mention of a resurrection eyewitness account in his writing.
none of the traditional attributions of the canonical gospels stand up to scrutiny. They are NOT eyewitness accounts
John is an eyewitness account. He is one of the sons of thunder named by Jesus. John's brother James was the first of the 12 apostle to be murdered. Matthew is one of the original 12 apostles. Mark worked closely with Peter, so his writing closely matches what he gathered from Peter. Luke traveled with Paul, and Luke said: "Many people have written accounts about the events that took place among us. They used as source material the reports circulating among us from the early disciples and other eyewitnesses of what God has done in fulfillment of his promises. Having carefully investigated all of these accounts from the beginning, I have decided to write a careful summary for you, to reassure you of the truth of all you have taught" (Luke 1.1-4). So though Mark and Luke are not eyewitnesses, they are the closest thing possible to an eyewitness, having received this information from those eyewitnesses, including Paul.
It is also important to distinguish between the cannons of the 2nd and 3rd century compared to the cannons written and oral as in 1 Cor. 15 which Paul received from Peter and James when they met together. The traditional attributions canonical gospels stand up to scrutiny which is why these past 2000 years none can find any problems. We have three things. Oral Tradition, Written Tradition an Paul's eyewitness testimony. There is Peter's testimony, James, brother of Jesus' testimony, John's, Matthew's, and in eleven different accounts of different group settings is the resurrection of Jesus documented between Matthew, Mark, Luke and Paul. One time 500 people gathered together saw Jesus resurrected Paul said. Paul even said at the time when he wrote these words that many are still alive who could write and find fault with him if what he said was not true of the various eyewitness accounts of the resurrection of Jesus.
Most of the Pauline epistles are forged, or, more politely, psuedepigraphic- along with most of the early christian texts
The most trusted Pauline writings most scholars consider to be Paul's very writings such as the earliest letters mentioned above. There is a spiritual reason also to believe all the books of the Bible are authentic and original. The total number of books is 66. If God's Word is true, He would give a specific number to the books of the Bible as a clue to its authenticity. Why 66? Because 6 is the number of Satan and man loves Satan's ways, so his number is 6 also. The Bible describes in full the redemptive design to break apart that union of 6 and 6, Satan and man. So these 66 books would not be pseudepigraphic as are the other books added to the 66 books commonly thought. Since there is no evidence for your claim, it is disregarded, and the Word is in complete harmony in the 66 books.
Paul does not supply any biographical details of Jesus, nor did he know him personally
Paul knew Jesus personally in the sense that he had a personal encounter seeing His appearance in Person and has a personal relationship with Jesus for Christ lived in Paul by the Holy Spirit. Paul did not spend his time in Jerusalem very much to recount the events, so that was left up to the Gospel writers. Paul was traveling most of the time so that is what his writings mostly comprise. He said, "I pass on to you what was most important and what has also been passed onto me-that Christ died for our sins, just as the Scriptures said. He was buried and was raised from the dead on the third day, as the Scriptures said. He was seen by Peter and then by the twelve apostles. After that he was seen by more than five hundred of his followers at one time, most of whom are still alive today, though some have died by now. Then he was seen by James and later by all the apostles. Last of all, I saw him, too, long after the others, as though I had been born at the wrong time" (1 Cor. 15.3-8). The purpose of the Gospels is to recount the life of Jesus. The purpose of Paul's writings is to show growth and experience in resurrection life.
Jesus is not mentioned in any secular sources
There are a total of 42 sources mentioned in The Case for the Resurrection of Jesus (2004) by Gary R. Habermas within the first 150 years of the death of Christ, 28 refer to his death as noted in The Historical Jesus by (Habermas). 17 are non-Christian sources. 12 of these non-Christian sources refer to his death, which exhibits an incredible amount of interest in this event. 129 facts of Jesus are documented. 30 record His teaching, which surprisingly includes 17 from secular sources.
Lucian of Samosata, the Greek satirist, writes, "The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day-the distinguishing personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account." Mara Bar-Serapion, writing to his son from prison comments, "Or [what advantage came to] the Jews by the murder of their Wise King, seeing that from that very time their kingdom was driven away from them?" This document is the British Museum. The Talmud reports that "one on the eve of Passover Yeshu was hanged." Jewish writings never deny the existence of Jesus, his miracles and execution. Yeshu is Joshua in Hebrew. The equivalent in Greek is Iesous or Jesus. Josephus said, "When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing amongst us, had condemned him to be crucified." Tacitus writes, "Nero fastened the guilt [of the burning of Rome] and inflicted most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name has its origin, suffered extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of the our procurators, Pontius Pilate."
Even the highly critical scholar of the Jesus Seminar, John Dominic Crossan, writes, "That he was crucified is as sure as anything historical can ever be."
There is no evidence except tradition to place 1 Clement in the first century. It is much more likely to have been written between 130 and 140
We do have a letter we know Clement, bishop of Rome (c.30-100), wrote to the church in Corinth around the year 95. Clement died AD 100 so, he could not have written it at your arbitrary date. Around 185, Irenaeus writes about that letter in Against Heresies. Around 200, Tertullian confirms this information too in Prescription Against Heretics. So they both write in agreement that Clement, and Polycarp, were appointed by the original apostles. In Clement's letter, he writes that the apostles were fully assured of Jesus' resurrection. If Clement knew the apostles, and considering Clement in Phill. 4.3, he could very well be the same Clement. They certainly would be in a better position than you or I to know these things being much closer to the information at the time.
Polycarp flourished a century after the crucifixion. It is exceeding unlikely he knew any actual disciples who were grown men 100 years earlier!
Polycarp was martyred in Smyrna (modern Izmir, Turkey) around the year 160 at the age of eighty-six as noted in The Martyrdom of Polycarp 9:3. Also known as the Encyclical Letter of the Church of Smyrna. Around 110, he wrote a letter to the Philippian church, speaking of the righteousness and endurance witnessed in the lives of several including "Paul himself and the other apostles." If Irenaeus and Tertullian are correct about Clement and Polycarp when they say they were appointed by the original apostles, specifically Peter and John, then the things that Polycarp says about the resurrection can be linked to what he personally received from the apostles.
At AD 100 Polycarp would be 26 years old, a prime age for giving the gospel. John was still alive at this time for he wrote Revelation around AD 95. Tertullian wrote that the apostle John appointed Polycarp, Prescription Against Heresies (p.32). The oldest of men will impart there final thoughts to be sure to the younger generation. This is a tradition.
I have seen no evidence to cause to give doubt these claims.
Though Iraneus might well have known Polycarp (after all, he wrote only 2 decades after the man is thought to have died) for his writings we are reliant on quotes from other sources, ie, Eusebius - from the 4th century!
Yes, this is the letter by Irenaeus, To Florinus, cited by the fourth-century church historian, Eusebius who regarded Irenaeus as a reliable source (Ecclesiastical History 5.20).
Mass hallucination is a known phenomenon.
There is no known records of mass hallucination. A hallucination is a false perception of something that is not there: that is, there is no properties outside the mind having a direct correlation to reality in a hallucination. A technical definition is: "sensory experience such as seeing persons or objects, hearing voices, and smelling odors in the absence of environmental stimuli" (Baker Encyclopedia of Psychology).
A delusion can be experienced by the masses, for it is a false belief, but not a hallucination. Jesus would have to not be there when the apostles and the women said they were eating with and touching him. Therefore, there would be no environmental stimuli. Masses of people do not say someone is seen who was not actually there. What they might do is see someone who looks like someone they know, but doesn't mean he is that person. Elvis sitings happen all the time. Lots of people in Elvis costumes. No alternative explanation is put forth by skeptics for the apostles seeing Jesus resurrected.
If you spent three and a half years traveling with Jesus, and then you eat and drink, talk with and touch Him after His resurrection, you certainly can't have a hallucination experienced by several different combination and group sizes of people (I think eleven different scenarios noted). Maybe one person individually, but note 12 people sitting at a table seeing the same thing at the same time and then again and again in different settings by all the apostles (more than 12). That has never happened before in the history of the world. So Jesus must have been really resurrected as He said He would be to give resurrection life to the saved. No mind games!
Group prayer can produce brain activity simillar to taking hallucinogenic drugs
Of course, but it can't cause everyone at the same time to see the same exact thing in the same way and over multiple occasions. That's the difference. Hallucinations are private occurrences.
On the other hand an illusion is something that is there but mis-perceiving it. Jesus was not actually there if it was a hallucination, but the hallucination can't be experienced by groups, since a hallucination takes place in the brain of one person only to see only what he sees, and he can't have the same scene as the other person all the time of something that is not there.
Also, hallucinations don't account for the empty tomb. Plus, Paul was not in the frame of mind to have a hallucination. He was doing his godly work of persecuting the Christians according to Jewish law. Hallucinations don't account for the conversion of the skeptic James either. Since he did not believe his brother was God, he was not stricken over his death to the point of a hallucination.
With UFOs there is too many incident variances. It is the same with those who saw Jesus resurrected. We can't say all those people viewing the UFO were hallucinating, because there were so many different types of people and places from which they viewed the UFO. With Jesus, His witnesses also were men an women, inside and outside, a hard headed Peter and a soft hearted Mary. Not all these people are in the same state of mind. While UFOs can be illusions of something already there, seeing Jesus resurrected could not have been an illusion.