4 Step Proof for God of the Bible

Sesshiro · 02-25-2006, 12:57 AM

"Every effect has a cause, and thus the cause for everything that is created has a cause except that which is uncaused."

Other than being slightly confusing(In wording) this does nothing to prove your point without also agreeing not every effect needs a cause, therefor a scientific theory of how exstance is what it is now is not less true than christian belief.

**Churchwork** · 02-25-2006, 01:02 AM

Originally Posted by Sesshiro

"Every effect has a cause, and thus the cause for everything that is created has a cause except that which is uncaused."

Other than being slightly confusing this does nothing to prove your point without also agreeing not every effect needs a cause, therefor a scientific theory of how exstance is what it is now is not less true than christian belief.

This is not confusing. All things in creation are caused; this is always the case. The uncreated is uncaused and the reason for why is given in the 4 Step Proof agreeing that every effect has a cause in creation. Science, if it is true, agrees with the words of Christ. When science disagrees with God's Word it is not true; that is, the application of the laws of science have been misused somehow. Your point is flawed because you are petty, still not looking at the 4 Step Proof.

Sesshiro · 02-25-2006, 01:12 AM

Your entire proof and arguement is assuming science argees with christian belief, which is not the case. You may want to rethink that.

**Churchwork** · 02-25-2006, 01:16 AM

Originally Posted by Sesshiro

Your entire proof and arguement is assuming science argees with christian belief, which is not the case. You may want to rethink that.

Science that is true agrees with God's Word. If it were not the case you could show it, but you don't. This is then, your presupposing, without a reason, that science might not agree with the Proof, but the Proof proves science agrees with the Word.

Sesshiro · 02-25-2006, 01:21 AM

There is solid evidence to Darwin's Theory(Yes, I know, theories are not proven)which clearly does not agree with "with word". Even so, your proof is no more proven than Darwin's theory, which actually relies on more than intuition and twisted logic, as your proof does.

This is, of course, only one example.

**Churchwork** · 02-25-2006, 01:26 AM

Originally Posted by Sesshiro

There is solid evidence to Darwin's Theory(Yes, I know, theories are not proven)which clearly does not agree with "with word". Even so, your proof is no more proven than Darwin's theory, which actually relies on more than intuition and twisted logic, as your proof does.

It agrees with Gen. 2.7 in one sense regarding the "dust," as this is the meaning of the body from dust. Darwin's theory only speaks about physical causes and effects since the amoeba; it does not address what occurred before the amoeba. Nor does it deal with the distinction of man's spirit that is unique from all of creation. Darwin's theory is limited in its scope and there it will remain. This is why the Proof goes beyond evolution, and deals with the cause and effects of evolving, even before the amoeba. Your logic is twisted and your spirit's intuition is corrupted. Since you find no fault with the 4 Step Proof, why blame it? That is illogical and corrupted like that great false accuser. Self-declarations (the "banal" and "recondite") are of no interest here.

**Churchwork** · 03-01-2006, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by Harlequin

Step 1.

Since none have the ability to overturn the 4 Step Proof, sometimes I will go out and find someone's argument to show its flaw. This is one such case at the Randi Corporation, in which I am banned for no valid reason; banning me for truth given clearly is not a valid reason, for it is never a valid reason to put your head in the sand rand.

You are welcome to post your effort personally on the forum where it needs to be refuted at biblocality.com/forums for those that want to make the effort. Other forums do not qualify. Also, because of the censoring at Randi (their admitting I don't even post that much, so why ban? It is illogical). Please post my reply in this post on Randi if you like since I am not allowed to. Notice too they move the 4 Step Proof from the million dollar section so as not to have to confront the matter. This is all expected behavior for people who don’t want to accept the truth when it is staring right in front of them like a great neon sign. Let's begin.

If evolution has had infinite time to operate then we should by now be perfect. We are not perfect, therefore the Universe has not been around forever. (confused idea of evolution, but still vaguely sound reasoning)

If you admit you have confused the idea of evolution, then why do it? This is belligerence, warned not to do. And you admit you are being vague, then stop it. Don't do it. Since we have not had an eternity to be perfected you know the universe is not from an eternity of the past in cause and effects. Given the interpolation of the progression of our conscience in the past 6000 years, we know it will not take another 6000 years to reach sinless as Step 1 already said. This is scientifically proven by pure math, in conjuction with observing our conscience. So Step 1 holds true, not vaguely, but very precisely.

Step 2. Everything has a single cause. (hmmm, no real justification here, but apparently we're calling that cause "God".)

It does not say everything has a single cause, but that eveything has a cause. I find it funny that people like to put their own thought into what is being said to try to disprove something. This is lame. Since nothing in nature happens all by itself, we know that it was caused. Since everything has a cause, therefore, the cause must be that which is uncaused. The big bang or other first event was caused by that which is uncaused so that when we compare all claimed uncaused causes only God wins out because of Christ's sinless sacrifice of which only God could be sinless. Sounds reasonable. Step 2 holds true and goes unchallenged.

Step 3. God is the only thing that was not "created" by something else. (apparently by definition).

You misread Step 3. Step 3 is not saying God was the only thing NOT created by something else, but rather, that the Proof is about God who was uncreated (not created), so that if you are going to try to disprove something, it is the attempt to disprove God of the Bible who is uncreated, not something else. How illogical it would be to try to disprove something other than what the Proof is about. This has all been explained in extensive detail so the fact that you would misread it, indicates your condition in a state of obstinacy and belligerency from which only God can extricate you. Still this step holds true, of course.

Step 4. Uhm, apparently there's only one God? (justified because, uh, we're not perfect, which we would have been had there been an infinite chain of gods - What the heck does that mean?)

Step 1 and Step 2 show God, yes. Step 4 already explains itself. Step 1 deals with natural cause and effect, whereas Step 4 deals with supernatural or other etheral cause and effects, rendering the same conclusion as Step 1, since we still sin, thus we have not had an eternity of the past to reach sinlessness. This Step holds as solidly as the day it was founded.

Wow. Staggering. Where's that million bucks?
Is it really true that this is the best proof and it "has never been challenged at all since the dawn of man"?

Yes, where is the million bucks? God is perfectly proven yet the award has not been given. This bespeaks of the unethicalness and poor conscience of Randi. This is really the best Proof of God of the Bible; it is in fact an extension of what God already said: look at the mountains and the stars and ask yourself, did you do that? Amen. Still to this day the 4 Step Perfect Proof has never been challenged since the dawn of man. Praise the Lord! This is the Proof of the Power of God's Word which the 4 Step Proof agrees.

Let me be the first to challenge it since the dawn (at least today's dawn): If God is perfect, shouldn't his creation be perfect? You have said that we are flawed and sinful, shouldn't that reflect badly on our creator? I'd say God is not perfect, because apparently he/she/it is incapable of creating anything better than us. Seems a rather sad excuse for a perfect being if it can't do better.

His creation is perfect. The fact that we are made in God's image perfectly does not mean we are robots or automatons that can't fall, otherwise then that would not be a perfect creation of having a free will like God's to have the right to fall; though God does not because He is God. It would reflect badly on God if He was merely a robot manufacturer, lol. God can't create anything better than us because we are the best thing He could create in creation - we are made in His image out of His glory whom He wants to walk with those who receive His uncreated life. What glory to God that we are His best creation! And because we are made in His image He righteously according to His holiness does not treat us as instrumental value, but as intrinsic value. Ergo, He will not annihilate our souls, but for those who refuse salvation will go to eternal separation in hell, while the saved with be with God in the new city and the new earth. Praise the Lord!

In layman's terms there is lots of bad people out there, like Satan (not a person), who are self-exalting themselves separating themselves apart from God's will.

I don't know why I bother, except for mild curiosity about where you will go next in your rant. It's a bit like watching a drunk on the dance floor. You almost can't help cheering and clapping just to encourage the poor fool to do another ridiculous spin. Yay! Wave your hands again! Now jump up and do the splits...

You bother because you have a spirit of God-consciousness that intrinsically is made in God's image has a right to receive salvation. But the choice is still afforded to you, which God awaits. You do seem like a drunk dancing around God. I was like you too unsaved before I was born again so I know what you are going through. Your ridiculous spin has been shown flawed to the bone, but I do not clap for your independency and reviling against the very reason you are here. Stop projecting yourself, jumping around, for it makes you hellbound. Do you not know you are a bad person? And if you leave God no choice but to cast you into hell forever, righteously that is exactly what God will do, to keep you eternally separated from His own that He wants to be with. Your being made in His image has the full capacity to come to the cross as a helpless sinner to receive Jesus as your Lord and Savior. No one is forcing you to reject the truth.

My prayers go out to you. Listen to the music in the chat room to soften your outerman, then read the Proof again, and read my words here, that continue to show you are in error. It is so easy to see, a child can see it.

**Churchwork** · 03-03-2006, 03:40 PM

Conclusion: every argument against the Proof I have seen failed, and do you know how they fail? They require misreading something about the Proof such as what ChristineR writes, who is a critical thinker, but critically erroneous in thinking. You can waste your time reading ChristineR, but in so doing what happens? You don't get to see how she misreads the Proof if you are not discerning. From time to time, I will allow some people to post their efforts here, if their thoughts are not so dull, so you can see how it is true, the cause of error is their misreading something, thus rendering their effort unsuccessful.

spiritplumber · 03-09-2006, 01:02 AM

Are you claiming that your proof is inerrant? I thought that Christians believed that the Bible, and only the Bible, is inerrant.

**Churchwork** · 03-09-2006, 02:47 AM

Just because the Bible is inerrant, does not mean other things can not be inerrant, that is, without mistakes. For example 2+2 =4. This is a flawless calculation. How silly it would be if Christians believed everything had a mistake. Do you see how you misread Christians? In your heart you sin bearing false witness, overassuming which is illogical and without the love of the Lord. After hundreds of tries, no one even came close to finding fault against the Proof of God of the Bible. The Holy Spirit gave me this Proof, and it remains solid because it was founded on the Spirit of truth.

The essential 4 Steps are perfect. Therefore, for you to still reject Christ after understanding the Proof of God, is punishable with eternal separation from God, since this is in fact what you want. In fact, you never even needed to hear the Proof, for you are made in God's image already without excuse. However, the Proof is powerfully convincing since it is perfectly unchallenged, and thus quite helpful to unregenerates. In the same way, we give the Gospel to lead people to Christ.