Quote Originally Posted by Ed
In truth, we see much human reasoning but so far no actual engagement of Scripture in context or for plain meaning. Instead, we see a consistent and very narrow presentation of an interpretation overriding context. Several years ago we subscribed to Conditional Mortality magazine. It is instructive that they have a regular column entitled "Twisted Scriptures." Within this column there is an annual rotation of explanation to deal with Scriptures that very clearly contradict their position. Consequently, they are bound to an endless carousel, circling endlessly in efforts to explain why the Scriptures don't say what they so clearly do. That approach is very evident in the response we have seen.
Your first sentence was pompous, for you can see in my above responses I dealt with various verses and gave quotes. I find your view to be very narrow minded, because you leave unaddressed the contradictions cited in your theory which leaves one unsatisfied with your man-made theories. Just like Calvinists have a glaring problem with their god with two wills in contradiction, left unexplained pleading mystery. It looks like you weren't able to access your revolving responses to deal with the issues I have presented you as being problems with your beliefs.

None of this is helped by the prideful "Remember the position I am coming from. You are teaching falsely and you are in a better position than most with knowledge." In short, you have admitted that you are driven by preconceptions.
Where did I admit I was driven by misconceptions? I said, "Remember the position I am coming from. You are teaching falsely and you are in a better position than most with knowledge" in which I proved by correct interpretation of the verses we discussed which you are free to respond to or leave unaddressed and undealt with.

Consequently, it is not surprising to see some very narrow human reasoning:

"Hebrews 12 does not say they are resurrected in spirit, soul or body, but they are those whose names are written in heaven: "To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven" (v.23a). This is present tense. Present tense doesn't mean they are actually in heaven, but that they are written in heaven, for that great and wonderful day of resurrection: "For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and left unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep" (1 Thess. 4.15). And "the dead in Christ shall rise first" (v.16) "to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord" (v.17). And SO we shall be with the Lord! Not before."

Please note, how carefully the previous paragraph is parsed. Much stress is laid upon "written," with attendant definition immediately following lest someone actually read the Scripture and see what it literally says. "Written" is also translated "enrolled," as in "current attendance." That meaning is further in context demonstrated because we are clearly told that these are the "the spirits of just men made perfect," yet apparently there is little effort believe the simple statement of Scripture. Context, however, is very important, for if the argument you advance is true, then the literal presence of "God the judge of all" and "Jesus the mediator of a new covenant" is not a present reality either. You can't have it both ways as the context clearly presents a "series" of the present inhabitants of heaven. The only way to postulate a "future" habitation for the "spirits of just men" is to insert or add that to Scripture. This you have done.
To be enrolled or written in heaven I experience resurrection life in my spirit and have even received a spirit of rapture, but this in no way suggests I am in the New City right now (nor would David be), for none can come before the High Priest naked. Yet you try to violate this principle. You exalt yourself where God has not done so. Who can say they are "before the throne" (Rev. 7.9) as the condition of the saints now since the resurrection has not taken place yet (1 Thess. 4.15-17), nor has first rapture occurred based on readiness (Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36, Matt. 24.42)?

It seems to me due to lack of faith you are a reductionist, spiritualizing the New City and allegorizing it, not realizing that it will actually come down at the end of the 1000 years and be a physical structure on the New Earth. Please read Watchman Nee's 17 point proof for the physical New City. During the 1000 years the New City is represented by the overcomer believers, since there is still a temple on earth. After the 1000 years it is inhabited by all the resurrected-saved. As the Roman Church allegorizes the 1000 years by making it now, you are allegorizing the New City, misrepresenting it and to when the saints will inhabit it.

Why are the "the spirits of just men made perfect" (Heb. 12.23)? Because they have been quickened with God's life. The innerman has been regenerated. Not that some are walking around in the New City as we speak. Not at all. How absurd to think that when not even David, who was seen as being perfect in God's eyes, has NOT been resurrected yet. "...perfect with the LORD his God, as the heart of David" (1 Kings 11.4). You're not understanding the constituent parts of man's tripartite being, the laws and functions of each part of man, and how man is sanctified wholly. This can induce false teaching and by not walking by the spirit. The division of spirit and soul and body does not place one's spirit in one dimension without mind or will or emotion of the soul left another domain (hades). How weird that would be.

"God the judge of all" and "Jesus the mediator of a new covenant" stands true, but your enrollment precedes class attendance. Don't add your own thought that you are currently attending the New City in 3rd Heaven and are potentially able to talk with people in 3rd Heaven. In reality you would be trying to communicate with dead people and even worse, demonic spirits masquerading as inhabitants of the New City. Remember when you were enrolled in university months before classes started. Your name was written on the books. How wonderful that first day of university was. The Lexicon result doesn't read as you claim, but says "to enter in a register or records." Can you feel an onset of delusion in your beliefs thinking you are in the New City right now? Explain that to your loved ones. They will think you are nuts.

The "series" of just men made perfect must be equal which is regeneration. If the saints that were resting are already resurrected and walking around in the New City then so would you be. But you are not. So think. If you are not, then they are not, for you will be resurrected together at the last day. Your argument is totally torn apart, because you should realize you are first assuming a position that is mistaken (you are in 3rd Heaven) then claiming there is a contradiction if the person doesn't accept your premise. But your premise is false, for the various reasons cited and which you could not counter.

We have looked at all your other issues and replied to them in the previous post, so you have no excuse to cling to your false teaching.

At this point we can do nothing further as we have already presented the simple facts of Scripture and are already familiar with the imposition of human tradition.

May God bless and encourage you beyond the limitations of our human expectation and understanding.

Thank you for writing.

Ed
You did not address almost all the issues presented and could not justify your view with regard to Heb. 12, so what do you have but to shut your mind down? Your human tradition of violently separating spirit and soul into different dimensions is completely unworkable and your desire to come before the High Priest naked is your great sin!

May God grace you with the understanding to live by the spirit and not to smother your spirit with your emotional appeals of your natural man.

My prayer is you look at these responses again conscientiously.

Praise the Lord for this discernment.