Islam the Opposite

[PeteWaldo]

Of course he was talking to Muslims. He wasn't giving a seminar to Christians.

Try to understand what I am saying. The Jews don't call Jesus the Christ. You admitted this, so Muhammad was not referring to the Jews unless Muhammad made a mistake.

That's the whole point. Mohammed did blunder over and over and over again. If a writer had written something like that verse in his book in Judaism or Christianity it wouldn't have been canonized for such a stunning internal error. Ask a Muslim. They will still tell you that is Jews that are referenced.

Nor could Muhammad be referring to Christians, because Christians don't kill the Christ. So what other group could he be referring to? If there is no other group, it proves Muhammad has internally contradicted himself with his own material.

Comically, partly because of Mohammed's untimely death, the Quran was left in such a mess that a whopping 71, out of only 114 suras, are subject to Abrogation. The Al-Nasikh wal-Mansoukh (the abrogator and the abrogated) is the Arabic language book that details all of the abrogated verses, and what they have been abrogated by.

Even Mohammed had a tacit admission to what a mess he made of it

Surah 2:106 (Asad) Any message which, We annul or consign to oblivion We replace with a better or a similar one. Dost thou not know that God has the power to will anything?

He even had to engage in damage control, knowing how he was being, and would continue to be perceived

Surah 16:101 When We substitute one revelation for another, and Allah knows best what He reveals (in stages), they say, "Thou art but a forger": but most of them understand not.

That's why when Muslims are in their Mecca mode (beginning to take over a country) you will hear the "no compulsion in religion" verses from waaayyy back in sura 2 and Mohammed's peaceful Mecca days. But when Muslims gain control they become the Medina style Muslims, with the verses that abrogate those from Mohammed's early years.

sura 8:12 I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them

In Indonesia 3 teenage girls were beheaded on their way to their Christian school and one of their heads left on the steps of a Church. The note left behind reads: "We will murder 100 more Christian teenagers and their heads will be presented as presents."

"Once again, women are the targets. In mid-March, rebels assaulted three women gathering firewood and cut off their ears, lips, and breasts."
"Starting in 2003, Janjaweed Arabs, a Sudan-backed militia, have driven 2 million villagers from their homes in ethnic-cleansing attacks designed to suppress local rebels."

"Eyewitness accounts detailing the militia attacks are horrifying. "They killed my 3-year-old son right in front of my eyes," one father from West Darfur said. Since last fall, women have reported more than 500 rapes. Three women said five militiamen beat and raped them last August. The women said, "After they abused us, they told us that now we would have Arab babies. And, if they would find any [more] women, they would rape them again to change the color of their children.""

AP - December 06, 2006 MOGADISHU, Somalia - "Residents of a southern Somalia town who do not pray five times a day will be beheaded, an Islamic courts official said Wednesday, adding the edict will be implemented in three days."

So that is where the contradiction lies, not necessarily in merely saying the Jews killed their Jesus Christ. Christians have to be brought into the equation as well to fully show the internal contradiction by Muhammad.

Do you understand what I am saying?

I hope that answered to it.

[Churchwork]

They call it progressive revelation so it is open to any kind of changes their leaders want as they see fit. Sorta like atheism, their own progressive morality with no fixed reference point. It is just assumed they won't turn into Hitlers. So there is no consistent unchanging word of God for them like the Bible has a clear OT and a clear NT. There is no objective moral reference point like we have in Jesus.

[PeteWaldo]

Of course, you should go through the word of God with them, spend time reading it with them showing what it really says. That's really the only solution to show how what they assumed was not true. But after you have done a pretty good job of explaining everything and still not response. You got to kick the dust under your feet and move onto the next Muslim to see if he hath an ear to hear.

What did I say that you thought was more than what the Qur'an said for the Muslim?

"...except all the parts Muslims say were added later and don't agree with one man in a cave all by himself."

I thought you were crediting the Quran with being the reason modern Muslims suggest that the bible was corrupt, or parts added later, etc.
But the claim of bible cannot be supported by the Quran. Another of Mohammed's oxymorons.

[Nottheworld]

Of course the Qur'an is irrelevant six centuries later.

But Muslims do claim, say, the parts about the Trinity were added later; that is the only explanation to resolve contradictions between the Bible and the Qur'an. Those are the true Muslims who take that approach. Based on the Qur'an, you can make from the perspective of a Muslim a case for not accepting all chapters of all 66 books by saying parts revealed by Allah hath revealed therein Jesus didn't die on the cross and God is not Triune.

sura 5:47 Let the people of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel.

[PeteWaldo]

Islam is the stunning direct opposite of Christianity. The only anti-another-religion, religion, on earth. Indeed Islam is so perfectly the opposite it should cause a Jew, or even a devout atheist, to Consider the odds of this being an accident. For example:

1. Christians hold the doctrine of Christ:

2John 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Muslims are taught that if they confess that Jesus is the Son of God they will have committed the ONLY unpardonable sin in Islam (shirk).

Surah 9.30 The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!

Matthew 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.


2. The whole subject and point of the New Testament is the new covenant we are given in Jesus Christ through His crucifixion, death and resurrection. The sacrifice of the Lamb without spot to save all who believe in Him from our sins through His shed blood.

Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

This event was witnessed by many:

Mark 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the Son of God.
Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.
John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

While even many secular historians confirm that Jesus was crucified, Mohammed came along five centuries later and denied Jesus' crucifixion and death on the Cross:

Surah 4:157 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

This is the single most deadly verse in the Quran.


3. There are at least 10 verses that tell us that Jesus is the ONLY begotten Son of God.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

beget
1. To father; sire.
2. To cause to exist or occur; produce: Violence begets more violence.

If God didn't beget Jesus, then who caused Jesus to be made manifest to us? Who was responsible for putting Jesus in Mary?
In God's own words:

Matthew 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Amazingly, Muslims even believe that Jesus was the only person in human history to be born of a virgin by the will of God. They even believe He led a sinless life, yet they deny that Jesus is the Son of God and that God is His Father.

Sura 19:88 They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!" 89 Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!


4. Christians are instructed to:

1Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing.

This describes a relationship and constant communication with God through the Holy Ghost.

The Hadith tells us that earlier Muslims were instructed to pray 50 times a day. Mohammed later reduced this to a more manageable 5 times per day after his alleged flight on a horse.

From "Infidel" Ali explains part of salat, "You say Praise be to Allah thirty-three times; God forgive me thirty-three times; Allah is great thirty-three times; and then, if you choose, you may also say Gratitude to Allah."
That's a total of 495 repetitions of just those first three prayers - every day - because Muslims are commanded to perform salat fives times a day.

Islam requires so much repetitive prayer one would have to wonder how those folks would find time for a relationship with their Creator. God's Word on the subject:

Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen [do]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Add to that the opposite when it comes to imams head coverings:

1Cr 11:4 Every man praying or prophesying, having [his] head covered, dishonoureth his head.
1Cr 11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover [his] head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.


Mat 6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.


Always the opposite, Muslims pray their repetitive mantras in front of each other in mosques 5 times a day. In Saudi Arabia if you miss showing up for these prayers (salat) they send the police to your house to find out why

5. Mohammed was the OPPOSITE of Jesus.
Perhaps the most violent thing Jesus did was to overturn the tables of the moneychangers.

From the time Mohammed plundered his first caravan, Islam was financed with property stolen from others. There is a whole sura regarding "Spoils of war, booty" detailing Mohammed's/Allah's 1/5 share. Along with pillage and plunder, even poets were killed for speech at Mohammed's behest. Fatwas are put out on folks that speak against Islam today, because Islam cannot stand the light of the truth of God's Word. That's why bibles and Christian materials are banned in Muslim countries. Muslims are encouraged to sexually violate and enslave women that are taken as spoils of war. Mohammed was allowed by Allah all the wives he wanted, but only for him. Mohammed was allowed by Allah to marry his step-son's wife. Mohammed inspired bloody imperialistic conquest through the Islamic first Jihad conquering nearly the whole known world. The Islamic Second Jihad has engaged in over 12,000 deadly terror attacks just since 9-11.

6. The goal of Islam is conquest of all of the kingdoms of the world, as evidenced by the Islamic First Jihad. "Islam will someday rule all the mountain tops of the world" - Ahmadinejad

Christians understand the the kingdoms of this world have been Satan's legal property ever since Adam's fall. He even offered them to Jesus. Jesus declined, but never contested Satan's ownership. Being born again is to be specifically called out of the kingdoms of this world, and into the Kingdom of God. The direct opposite of Islam's goal.

7. Genesis 12:2 And I will make of thee [Abram] a great nation [Israel], and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: 3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' " (video) Sahih Bukhari Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176 - Sunna: Sahih Muslim Book 041, Number 6985) USC had to remove this "inspired" Islamic hadith as hate speech, but does not repudiate it).


8. Christian men are to:

Ephesians 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

There can be no greater love than Christ had for us.
Islam?

Sura 2:223 your wives are as tilth (farmland) unto you; so approach your tilth when or how ye will...

Husbands are allowed four wives plus concubines. Women are stoned for adultery. Men are allowed to marry and have sex with girls as young as 9 years old. Men are permitted one day marriages. Women inherit half of what their brothers do. The testimony of a woman is only worth half that of a man. Women are often effectively the property of their parents who decide whom they will marry. If a woman follows her heart she can be the victim of an "honor killing". If parents die then it is their brothers who control these decisions. There are fewer women in Mohammed's heaven then men because they are "deficient in intelligence".

(Sura al-Baqara 2:282). Muhammad accounted for this rule by the deficiency of woman's intelligence: Once the Messenger of God went out to a prayer place to offer the prayer of Greater Bairam or Lesser Bairam. He passed by the women and said, "O women! Give alms, as I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell- fire were you [women]." They asked, "Why is it so, Messenger of God?" He replied, "You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you." The women asked, "What is deficient in our intelligence and religion, Messenger of God?" He answered, "Is not the evidence of two women equal to the witness of one man?" They replied in the affirmative. He said, "This is the deficiency in your intelligence.

Women are there for beating:

Sura 4:34 - Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
http://www.beholdthebeast.com/#women

9. Even Mohammed's heaven is the opposite.

Romans 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Mohammed's Aljana (From Islam Reviewed, a book filled with opposites from a Nigerian former Muslim perspective.).

"Rivers of wine of many varieties (Sura 47:15; 76:6)
- There is the promise of pure sealed wine (Sura 83:25)
- Zanjabil enhanced wine (Sura 76:17)
- Tasnim brand of wine (Sura 83:27)
- Wine mixed with kafur (Sura 76:5)

Then:
- Gushing water (Sura 3:15, 198, 4:57, 15:48).
- Clustered plantains (Sura 56:29)
- Fruits (Sura 56:20, 69:21-24).
- Shades with bunches of fruits (Sura 76:14).
- Enclosed gardens and grape vines (Sura 78:32).
- Fowl meat is one more carrot that Allah dangles before the noses of the Muslim faithful. (Sura 56:2)."
In essence the things that Mohammed's desert habitat lacked. The list obviously reads more like California than heaven.


In conclusion we can see that Christians and Muslims cannot possibly be worshiping the same God since the two religions are DIRECT OPPOSITES. Allah even curses Christians and Jews. Islam is the only anti-another-religion, religion, on earth. Islam is antichrist.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. 23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

Christians follow the 1600 year record of God to mankind revealed through all of the prophets and legions of witnesses in His Holy Word. Muslims follow the 23 year, 6th century record of Mohammed that is the perfect DIRECT OPPOSITE, of the Word of God.

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.

[PeteWaldo]

Of course, you should go through the word of God with them, spend time reading it with them showing what it really says.

Is this a vital part of the focus of your church's ministry? Bringing the Gospel to that 1/4 of mankind?
If it is, it is pretty unique.
I see 1.5 billion people headed for the lake of fire, in sight of a church that appears more despondent and defensive, more than anything else.

[Nottheworld]

The problem is you are deceiving Muslims, because you are leading them from Allah to a false Christ who does not return to Earth and reign for the 1000 years with the saints (Jude 14,15). Revelation 20 follows the return of Christ (Revelation 19) and after the 1000 years is the finishing up of things at the end of the thousand years (latter part of Revelation 20). then the New City (chapter 21) takes place on the New Earth. So when Jesus returns to reign on Earth you will reject Him, because you are looking for something else, the Antichrist. You need to get yourself right before God before helping Muslims. Since you claim the False Prophet already came, you will be deceived by the Antichrist coming out of revived Rome and his False Prophet.

[PeteWaldo]

The problem is you are deceiving Muslims, because you are leading them from Allah to a false Christ who does not return to Earth and reign for the 1000 years with the saints (Jude 14,15).

I don't teach one way or the other in regard to the millennial reign.
But if you believe that salvation is dependent on one's interpretation of a single verse, contained in the figurative language of a prophetic vision, from which springs your "definite" doctrine, based on an indefinite plural, you are actually suggesting your own unregenerate nature.

Revelation 20 follows the return of Christ (Revelation 19) and after the 1000 years is the finishing up of things at the end of the thousand years (latter part of Revelation 20). then the New City (chapter 21) takes place on the New Earth. So when Jesus returns to reign on Earth you will reject Him, because you are looking for something else, the Antichrist. You need to get yourself right before God before helping Muslims. Since you claim the False Prophet already came, you will be deceived by the Antichrist coming out of revived Rome and his False Prophet.

Everyone in this forum failed to make a case for a single antichrist based on the verses that actually contain the term. But hey, what does the Word of God matter when one has his doctrine to defend!
It is the 20th century church that blinded itself to the fact that 1/4 of the world are antichrists as a result of following Mohammedanism that is the exact opposite of Christianity.

[Nottheworld]

What makes you think there is only one verse proving the millennial reign of Christ on earth? And what is that verse by the way? I don't understand how you can keep contending 1260 days are really years when Jesus would have returned in 1948 if you were right. Nothing happened in the 1290th which would have been 1978. 1335th would be 2023. Nonsense! The 1290th day is 30 days of judgment by Jesus when He is on earth. The 1335th day is 45 more days to set Israel up as the center of all nations.

What indefinite plural are you talking about? And why don't you believe God's word is "definite"? Are you a relativist?

The language of prophecy is not figurative, but specific, exacting and precise. Take for example the book of Revelation. There are 30 or so symbols, but half of them are explained right there in the text. So in 22 chapters that is less than 1 unexplained symbol every two chapters. That can hardly be construed as figurative language. The other half are relatively simple enough to discern from other parts of the Bible.

You accused me of being an unregenerate because Jesus said He is returning in Person to reign for the 1000 years (Zech. 14.4, Acts 1.11, Jude 14,15, Rev. 1.7, chapter 19.11-16, 20.2-7)? It would seem to me your accusing the saints (Rev. 12.10), therefore, you are following Satan, so you would be unregenerate?

The Antichrist described in Revelation 13, I gave you a lengthy post under in Roman Church forums, which you didn't respond to at all, so the burden of the proof remains on you to challenge it. Furthermore, you admit if the Antichrist is true you will clearly be deceived because you wouldn't even accept him when he arrives since you don't think he exists.

You are blinded by the fact not just 1/4 of the world are antichrists because they are Muslims, but almost everyone else is antichrist too including the vast bulk of Christendom who actually worship a false Christ. You are antichrist, because you reject the Christ and accept Antichrist who you admit if he comes on the scene since you deny his existence, you will not discern him and his deception.

Since you are a follower of Antichrist, then you are not a Christian.

[PeteWaldo]

What makes you think there is only one verse proving the millennial reign of Christ on earth? And what is that verse by the way? I don't understand how you can keep contending 1260 days are really years when Jesus would have returned in 1948 if you were right.

You mean is that as you try to wring a single concept through the filter of your doctrine that's how it looks to you. This is why I included several threads in the forum to try begin to introduce a broader picture of this continuous historic context, because it needs to be considered on the basis of it's own merits, in total, and will never be seen if one insists on taking pieces of it and testing them individually against preconceived notions.

I believe 1948 marked the beginning of what Daniel referred to as the "time of the end", and thus when his prophecies began to be unsealed. For example -

Daniel 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a thing was revealed unto Daniel, whose name was called Belteshazzar; and the thing [was] true, but the time appointed [was] long: and he understood the thing, and had understanding of the vision.

"The time appointed was long...".
You can Yahoo a supportable date of the first year of Cyrus in Babylon to be 536 BC (making the third year of Cyrus 533 BC)

Toward the end of his prophecy we read:

Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which [was] upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that [it shall be] for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these [things] shall be finished.

Jews - both Messianic and non-Messianic - translation of the Hebrew idiom "time, times and an half" is somewhat different than most of us Christians may have been taught. Let's suppose for a moment, just for the sake of argument, that Jewish scholars just may happen to have a better understanding of antiquated Hebrew idioms, than church scholars do.

Below is the above verse from a version of the Tanach:

Daniel 12:7 And I heard the man clad in linen, who was above the waters of the river, and he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens, and he swore by the Life of the world, that in the time of [two] times and a half, and when they have ended shattering the strength of the holy people, all these will end.

While Daniel's prophecies use this "times" idiom, the Old Testament never defines it. However, most Christians are familiar with the following verse from the New Testament:

2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The Greek word that is translated as "day" in the above verse is "hemera". This is an ambiguous word whose definition is determined by it's context.
In 3 other passages in the KJV it is translated as "time" (in 12 verses in the NASB).

From Strong's:
New Testament Greek Definition:
2250 hemera {hay-mer'-ah}
from (with 5610 implied) of a derivative of hemai (to sit,
akin to the base of 1476) meaning tame, i.e. gentle;
TDNT - 2:943,309; n f
AV - day 355, daily + 2596 15, time 3, not tr 2, misc 14; 389

So what happens if we ponder for a moment as to whether the Lord may have meant for a "time" to be as a thousand years:

2-1/2 "times" would equal 2500 years. Then 2500 - 533 = 1967. The restoration of the Jews to, and end of the Gentile control of, Jerusalem. Note it in the context of the above verse. The end of the "shattering the strength of the holy people". As Daniel wrote, the Jews were the only "holy people". In 1967 the completion of the restoration of their power and strength occurred when they took Jerusalem.

Do you find that interesting?