Matthew 15.9 and Mark 7.7 don't refute that Lydia believed in God as was explained "sebo" can be unto to God or away from God. You are repeating yourself but not responding to my response about this. Where was Lydia talked about prior to Acts 16.14 either way? The first thing mentioned about Lydia is that she believed in God. Do you see also your problem where you would have everyone in the OT be unsaved because they hadn't seen Jesus? That's illogical. You're avoiding this point too, for you have not responded to it yet. People from the OT could be saved also. Please address this and stop avoiding this point. "Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God" then "heard [us]" (Acts 16.14). Whether she had believed God or not is actually irrelevant anyway, because it was her choice. Whether she had already believed in God (which she did) or come to believe in Him just then still doesn't change the fact it was her choice to respond. My belief is because she already believed in God she was once-saved-always-saved so her decision was already made when presented the Christ she could not deny Him. Either way you look at it, you can't turn this scene into a defense for Calvinism which is why you brought it up in the first place. You'll have to look elsewhere.Originally Posted by briancook007
You're like a Mormon who quotes lots of stuff as though it agrees with him. You need quality not quantity. You need to get specific with a verse rather than be a regurgitation machine. Your use of imperative mood goes beyond the Scripture usage and definition: "a mood that expresses an intention to influence the listener's behavior" does not demand irresistibly forcing. That's reaching. That God demands something and call people to do something does not mean He forces it, nor does it mean they will respond. With authority He says to repent and believe and by so doing He is appealing to us. It is both a command and an invitation whosoever believeth in Him--though not passive invitation on God's part but He actively pleads with us.Did you read what I wrote about Rev. 22:17c & d? Those two statements are in the IMPERATIVE MOOD in the Greek, which means they are COMMANDS, not invitations. Mk. 1:15 is in the imperative mood; what saith the Scripture? "Repent ye, and believe the gospel." No, man does not have a propensity to sin, it is his nature to do nothing but to sin apart from God's grace. Man isn't totally depraved? What saith the Scriptures?
Gen. 6:5: "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."
Gen. 8:21: "The imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth."
Job 25:4-6: "How then can man be justified with God? or how can he be clean that is born of a woman? Behold even to the moon, and it shineth not; yea, the stars are not pure in his sight. How much less man, that is a worm? and the son of man, which is a worm?"
Psa. 10:4: "The wicked, through the pride of his countenance, will not seek after God: God is not in all his thoughts."
Psa. 51:5: "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."
Jer. 13:23: "Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."
Jer. 17:9: "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?"
Lk. 16:31: "If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Rom. 8:5-8: "For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is DEATH; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed CAN BE. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."
I Cor. 12:3: "No man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost."
Eph. 4:18-19: "Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness."
Col. 2:12-13: "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses."
I Tim. 5:6: "But she that liveth in pleasure is dead while she liveth."
Unregenerate man can help others, but what saith the Scriptures regarding that (Tit. 1:15-16)?
You are wrong that man only ever does wrong, for I know some people who help old ladies across the street. And even atheists have charities. None of these verses you quoted from the Bible indicate man is Totally depraved. Certainly man is fallen and his propensity is to sin. His willfulness to sin is most apparent, but He is not Totally unable. Man would not exist without God; likewise man needs God's grace and assistance in all things. That is not the issue before us. The issue before us is you are trying to find a verse that teaches irresistible grace and imposed salvation in which your god is partial to some and not to others he passes over by preterition. You've thus far failed all your life in the eyes of a Christian who looks at your work.
The mistake you are making in the above verses is that of a legalizer: like an unethical bad lawyer that turns a grey into an absolute. Not one of these verses you can show clearly points to Total depravity of Total inability. Therefore, we can conclude you erect this idol in order to claim you couldn't repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated as an excuse not to. God's grace was sufficient for you, but you deny the ability He gave you to obtain this gift of repentance and faith truly come to Him with an honest heart, thus placing yourself under a passivity of control by demonic forces to take possession of your will and give your responsibility before God.
Again observe the verses you give, for not one of them say a person is irresistibly made to repent and be saved and others passed over and not given the grace to have the choice. God is not partial. He is impartial. His grace is sufficient for all. I know this is hard for you to believe, but it is true because in the Bible God dies for the sins of the whole and wishes that none should perish. The issue before us is not whether God supplies grace and that grace is needed, for of course it is. The issue is whether God is impotent that he needs to irresistibly impose it on some and deny it sufficiently to others, but you could find no such verses, and so you remain a child of perdition as you exalt yourself over others, but you are no less a child of perdition than they are. And the reason is clear, because you refused to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Instead you took an assuming stance which you claim was having been made irresistibly to believe. This is a selfish salvation without true repentance and faith God require from you. He sets the condition which you deny for "whosoever believeth"."Unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."
You say irresistible grace isn't necessary for man to repent and to believe. What saith the Scriptures?
Eccl. 7:13: "Consider the WORK OF GOD: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?"
Jn. 6:28-29: "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the WORK OF GOD, THAT YE BELIEVE on him whom he hath sent."
Phil. 1:6: "Being confident of this very thing, that HE which HATH BEGUN A GOOD WORK in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ."
Rom. 2:4: "Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God LEADETH thee to repentance?"
Eph. 1:19-20: "And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to usward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead."
Phil. 3:12: "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I AM APPREHENDED of Christ Jesus."
God can make a person fall to the earth, but the person who falls to the earth still has the free-choice to respond to God's conviction. God was able to change Paul's sinful nature because Paul responded to God's call. Paul was one man who needed that much grace to be saved. Of course many who receive even that much grace would still reject God so God need not throw them to the ground anyway.You say God didn't move upon Paul irresistibly in Acts 9:1-6? Are you serious? Paul "fell to the earth" while he was on his way to persecute God's people! God changed his sinful nature right then and there, regenerating him and giving him the gifts of both faith and repentance.
I'll say, he is not even born-again, as a Calvinist. It's interesting the Calvinists can't agree with each other. But he is right about the fact that the first instance mentioned of hardening was not the active moment, but of God foreseeing. Why do you continue to overlook this fact? You don't respond to it. The first active hardening was the Pharaoh hardening his own heart. You don't read the Bible very well. The Pharaoh is not Totally depraved. No man is. This is an idol you erect that keeps you separated from God, causing you to be unwilling to repent and believe in Him to be regenerated, which you even admit you have not and will not. Satan is the false accuser to the last through you where there is this strong agreement in the Body you call it evil. Which makes sense, because you are not a member of the body of Christ, but do Satan's bidding. It is Satan that wants you not to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated, and you give into this selfish nature not to.John Piper is not the authority; the Scriptures are. The first mention of Pharaoh's heart being hardened is Ex. 4:12, before it ever is said that he hardened his own heart. Again, a careful examination of the Hebrew shows that God hardened his heart by leaving it in its natural state, that of a totally depraved, wretched sinner. If there's any kind of uniformity of belief among OSAS Arminians, it's because Satan never divides against himself (Mk. 3:25-26), Arminianism being false doctrine, heresy.
Yes, God did raise up Jacob Arminius in response to the heresies of Calvinism. Arminianism doesn't say man does not get what he deserves, but we do say that God is not an unjust God who does not provide ample grace. Reprobation, those going to perdition need not be by preterition, for God is a fair and just God and would want none to perish so He does all He must to the uttermost of His righteousness to save the most and damn the least. The carnal mind makes God an evil tyrant with morals less than man's and equal to Hitler by sending them from birth like the Jews to the gas chambers without any opportunity of escape and receive the love of God. What love is this?No, injustice in God never is raised in the Arminian system; man always gets what he deserves. You Arminians are the ones who accuse God of injustice; reprobation makes no sense to the carnal mind, which is why you people reject it.
That's obnoxious. I don't speak to people like that, nor should you. I don't say you forgot to quote one of many verses. I forgot to quote a verse, one of thousands of verse you just popped out and said I didn't quote? Please. This faith is not the saving faith unto regeneration, but it is the faithfulness one has after being saved, so one who is saved gets baptized. A person who has died with Christ on the cross naturally gets buried in baptism and rises up with Him and out of the world. A person who is born-again is already saved. The act of baptism of the Spirit is experienced as result of this new life. Calvin thought salvation was before or at baptism before even believing in God as an infant. That's the consistent and common assumption that plagues Calvinism to assume regeneration without prior genuine repentance and faith. That's twisted to get buried before dying. The very pride you exhume from that day of first assuming regeneration without repentance and faith can't help but rear its ugly head in pride again and again. And this is how you come across. It's palpable. You can't sense it though. You're hovering on the surface oblivious.When you quoted Rom. 5:2, you forgot to quote Col. 2:12; what saith the Scripture? "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through THE FAITH OF THE OPERATION OF GOD, who hath raised him from the dead."
I am sure you say you shouldn't assume you are regenerated because that would be of self, but nonetheless, you do assume you were regenerated without prior repentance and faith because you admit by the idol of Total depravity you couldn't repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. Your mistaken assumption got the better of you. Arminians don't say what you accuse of that repentance comes from man, not at all. Rather, we may obtain the gift of repentance and faith by coming to God with an honest heart, so you are clearing mistaken in misrepresenting Christians when you said, "Arminians say that man provides faith and repentance in and of himself apart from God's grace." In fact, this very thing you claim is what you engender because it was against God's grace to merely assume regeneration without any true heart felt repentance and prior believe to be saved. It's sad the Calvinist doesn't realize his grand assumption and self-exaltation is his pretentious gift to Satan. The objective of Christianity, and thus agreed to by Arminian, is to glorify God for God created us to have a relationship with us and none is higher than Him. Whereas in Calvinism you glorify evil, the evil that sends people to Hell without recourse from birth when there was nothing they could do about it, they were just born that way, and he irresistibly imposes this alleged salvation you claim you have. This is utterly evil, but you don't have a conscience to sense your erroneous thinking, because you don't want to be saved God's way. And that's very sad, very sad indeed.You again show your complete ignorance of Calvinistic teaching; we don't say man should assume he's regenerated before he repents and believes, we say he should do those things this very day, this very moment. You said, "The type of repentance and faith to a Calvinists is not the same to an Arminian...." You got that part right. You Arminians say that man provides faith and repentance in and of himself apart from God's grace, while we Calvinists say correctly, scripturally, that those two things are God's gifts to man, not man's gifts to God. I wonder if the thought ever has occurred to you people that the primary object of your system is to glorify MAN, whereas the object of Calvinism is to glorify GOD.
It should be enough for you to leave Calvinism by recognizing the contradiction of your god who claims he wants all to be saved openly, but secretly he doesn't. God is not a doubletalker but your god is. Repent!
God doesn't put Himself to death. But He uses evil for good. In foreknowing man's hostility against God Almighty, God would use that to provide a salvation for men that whosoever was willing could receive His mercy and grace. I have some advice for you: try to read any one particular verse more closely and not read into it that which is not there or not clearly shown there. Really see if you can do it! Assume nothing.Your ignorance of the facts is showing badly. Christ was murdered when He was crucified, a direct violation of the Sixth Commandment, God's preceptive will; but, what saith the Scriptures?
Isa. 53:4: "Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, SMITTEN OF GOD, and afflicted."
Acts 2:23: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain."
Acts 4:27-28: "For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done."
You say God doesn't have a secret will? What saith the Scripture? (Deut. 29:29)? "The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law."
You call upon a false Christ, because in your faith Jesus died frivolously since whether he died or not, you were to be irresistibly selected according to your proclamation of regeneration. The authority that I have is that of an Apostle to tell you, you are not a child of God by the Holy Spirit, fully proven in Scripture, for there are no verses for Total depravity and there is not irresistible grace--this is Satanic grace, not God's grace at all.You said, "Your prayers are rebuked in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, for they come from the evil spirit who has got you under a false salvation." You have no authority to rebuke my prayers, and I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit to defend me in this, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). You hear me again, sir. I'm not afraid of you or the Devil that's motivating you, and don't you ever forget it. By God's grace, you will not deter me, you will not intimidate me; by His grace, I'm not going away. If the Lord will, I will continue to defend the truth of Calvinism in this forum.
The Holy Spirit reveals you are under possession because you are unable to repent of the heresy of Calvinism. You're like the reprobate of Calvinism, locked in and this is possession by the imposing evil spirits. Not all Pharisees are reprobate for some may have yet given their lives to Christ like Paul did. Spurgeon recognized the unsalvation of himself and Calvinists because he said "the man who is not willing to submit to the electing love and sovereign grace of God, has great reason to question whether he is a Christian at all..." You kick with the devil because you were not willing to submit to God, for submission to God is not pridefully assuming you were regenerated without prior repentance and faith, nor is it by a God who makes you believe without genuine repentance which we all may freely obtain. A gift is never forced on anyone. May you yet one day give your life to Christ. I'd hate to receive a gift from you. I'd be dragged into having to accept it.You have accused me falsely of demonic possession, the very same charge the Pharisees levelled against Christ (Mk. 3:30, Jn. 8:48). Those Pharisees were unregenerate, lost, REPROBATE. Very interesting. How very true are the words of Spurgeon when he said, "I believe the man who is not willing to submit to the electing love and sovereign grace of God, has great reason to question whether he is a Christian at all, for the spirit that kicks against that is the spirit of the devil, and the spirit of the unhumbled, unrenewed heart."
God's grace came upon you and you rejected it when you refused to repent and believe in Christ to be regenerated. That's the bottom line: it is the same theme over and over. Not to say you couldn't this very day give your life to Christ, but it is highly unlikely, for you have already decided what you want. It oozes out from you such immense pride Christians can see it easily it is not of the Holy Spirit but the evil spirit. You preach a false gospel. You are not a child of God and probably never will will be, for like I said, you are possessed and you want to remain under the control of the evil spirit (proclaiming it to be of God, but Jesus says He never knew you). You've made your choice, now you want to try to understand that evil choice. The blessings of an unregenerate are rebuked in the name of God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit. My prayers go out to you, you don't have to remain as you are. You do have a choice, for you are made in God's image as a sovereign free willed being to be under God or under Satan. The problem is choice and coming to the cross as a helpless sinner without pridefully assuming.You have attacked me unjustly. You have accused me falsely, repeatedly of unbelief, repeatedly of working for my salvation, repeatedly of demonic possession, of making false accusations, of cowardice, of cultism, of "Satanic grace", of my alleging that I was "regenerated without having to repent and believe in Christ", and of selfishness. You can refuse or can rebuke any blessing or prayer you please, but that won't stop me from giving them by God's grace, as He has commanded. I do have authority to use any Scripture rightly, as I am God's child, despite your false accusations to the contrary. If the Lord will, I will continue to do so. I respectfully call upon the Lord Jesus Christ in His Name to defend me in these things, as He is my only Defense (II Sam. 22:31c). All these wrongs I now forgive in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ by His grace (Jn. 15:5c) per His command (Mk. 11:25-26). I also bless you in His Name by His grace per His command (Rom. 12:14).
Amen.
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