Originally Posted by
RatioAnn
Well, that didn't take very long.
You too.
I don't see the (first) rapture as an escape, because we don't know when it will be it should make us want to be about His business as much as possible because we don't know when our opportunity will be over.
Because we don't know when parousia will commence, it does not dictate first rapture is not according to readiness to escape these things which will happen to all the world in the Tribulation, for the Word of God states, "Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man" (Luke 21.36). Clearly, God says IF we watch and IF we pray. Why give this warning about escaping the Tribulation if it is not so? This renders your idea of overassuming your rapture before the Tribulation without humility and with this pride, consequently, not being about His business. Because we don't know when Christ will return, it should cause us to do two things: (1) be about His business, and (2) not overassume our rapture as we humbly accept His decision whether we are ready at the first rapture to be received "before the Throne" (Rev. 7.9). Many do not have the humility to accept (1), let alone (2). Let us leave it up to God's decision, not make God's decision for Him about first rapture. Remember this verse well: "Because thou didst keep the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of trial, that [hour] which is to come upon the whole world, to try them that dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3.10). God is not vain. He does not warn us about what is needed and then not produce a consequence for non-overcoming Christians who overassumed their rapture before the Tribulation.
(1) I agree (2) 'not sure' (3) 'not sure'
How can you be not sure about about overcoming in Christ (2) and rewards (3) when you also, in your profile, said "no" to "outer darkness" not being a consequence for not overcoming? You have adamantly rejected the matter of consequences for Christians and then said in the same breath you are "not sure" about (2) and (3). Be "not doubletongued" (1 Tim. 3.8). Throughout the Scriptures God is calling for the believer to overcome; why would you reject God's loving Word to overcome? It's the heresy of antinomianism in your heart as previously mentioned that you are under and which you need deliverance from.
Okay, I can agree with this.
If you agree with this, then you should check yourself, because you are agreeing with first rapture according to readiness (which only some Christians fulfill) and the rewards given only the saved who overcome to reign in the millennium. This would disagree with your previous view of being a pretribulation onlyists and rejecting loss of rewards in "outer darkness" for non-overcomers.
I agree with two exceptions. Obviously, I'm a pre-tribber only-ist, so I don't see that as a false fruit. Second, I was saying the partial rature person would say, 'I have achieved enough...' because after the first rapture those left will be working for that end.. it puts the ball in the persons court when the control is Gods alone.
Your conscience can't see your negative fruit even after it is explained to you again and again, which indicates something is wrong with you in your inner spirit: rejecting co-death, which is selfish and overassuming rapture not according to readiness by altering Rev. 3.10, Luke 21.36 and other verses in your heart. Partial rapture believers do not say "I have achieved enough," so do you see, as previously stated, how you make this claim without basis like you are the great accuser? Your idea depends on you sinning bearing false witness, but the Spirit's truth flows that if you don't know if you are going to be raptured at the first rapture, you will be more likely to seek to overcome, and if in so doing, you will be received to the throne before the Tribulation. This is the cause and affect: accepting the truth (partial rapture), causes one to overcome sooner than otherwise. You teach you have achieved enough (putting the ball in your court) to be raptured before the Tribulation, whereas those who believe in partial rapture do not know if they will be raptured at the first which leaves the ball in God's court to decide; and all we do is continue to work to that end. In your case, you have already decided and declared to God what will happen to yourself. We choose not to pre-decide, and thus receive the blessing of Rev. 1.3, "Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand" that you are without.
I don't do anything to be saved and likewise I can do nothing to earn the blessing of rapture. If someone is not raptured during the first rapture, I call into question their salvation. I'm glad to see you at least agree that their are false converts; most people don't even like to hear that much. Now, I do think people will be saved post rapture, but they will have to endure the trib period & will do God's will in the meantime. For example, the 144,000 will be on earth then... after the rapture.
If you are speaking of not doing anything to be saved, you deceive yourself, since God requires you to believe (John 3.16,18) which is doing something to receive His saving grace. Similarly, to overcome in Christ, you must also abide in the works God has set for you to be saved further unto rewards. You ought to come out of antinominianism, and distinguish between new birth and a life of overcoming, bearing your daily crosses and abiding in God's will for you. Remember, we have seen together that you have to alter Scripture when you reject first rapture according to readiness by saying that rapture is only part of redemption (initial salvation), that since redemption is according to grace, rapture cannot be based on the concept of worthiness. In reply, it needs to be pointed out that while the act of changing (see 1 Cor. 15.51-52) is indeed according to grace, the act of being taken (rapture) is according to works (Luke 21.36). This is why God explains that to escape the Hour of trial (the actual time period of the last week), you will need to be "accounted worthy" by being watchful, prayerful, keeping His patient Word and the conduct of Matthew 5-7. Many Christians find this too distasteful as they lie on their bed of fornication or simply fall short of the glory of God below what God will deem as required for first rapture. Like a balloon tied down to an object of the earth, you don't sound like you want to be released like an Enoch or an Elijah who typify first rapture.
The scenario I see happening for you is as follows. You will be in the Tribulation, I have no doubt about that. It seems you most likely will not realize when you are in the Tribulation because you think to yourself if it really was the Tribulation you would have been raptured. Thus, you are free to take the mark of the beast, assuming it would not be the mark, since if it was the mark, you would have already been raptured. Do you see the negative consequence of your faith? You have no regard for chiliasm, the view of Christians in the first century. This is your pride. If God continues to warn that there are consequences for believers if we do not overcome, then why do you reject His Word? It's called antinomianism, rejecting co-death with Christ, and assuming you have already overcome, not realizing both sin and self need to be delivered unto death. You will be saying to people if you are not raptured before the Tribulation, you are not saved, all the while you are in the Tribulation and are not born-again, about to take the mark of the beast. How deceitful the devil is who causes the Word to be changed in your heart. He wants you to remain unsaved, or at the very least if you are saved, to remain a carnal Christian to lead people away from Christ and make a mockery of the Church.
You do not understand the meaning of the 144,000. The first set of 144,000 (Rev. 7) are the Jewish remnant who will hide in the wilderness and Satan's wrath will not be able to find them. The second set of 144,000 (Rev. 14.-15) are the first fruits who will be mostly raptured at the first rapture (there could be a few of them in the Tribulation itself). They are Christians, and actual virgins. They are not necessarily most spiritual, but they keep their chastity. This has great implication because in eternity future there is no sexual relations for those who live in the new city, and thus, the 144,000 begin already their lives in eternity future of chastity. They will be the closest to Christ when they return to reign in the millennial kingdom.
I have full Scriptural explanations and proofs for this on any part, just ask.
I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about these events. I mostly see them as types of the rapture which will come.
In a few short words that I give you, you would now know this about these examples of those who were saved before the Tribulation, except that some were not raptured at first rapture for not be accounted ready to be received: some were "taken" and some were "left" (Matt. 24.37,40-41). As a generalist, lacking being specific, naturally you will only want to see what you want to see vaguely: but it is hard to deny if you love the truth, that Elijah was taken, Elisha was left, Christ was taken, the disciples were left, Enoch was taken, Noah was left, Philip was taken, the eunuch was left. Paul knew he was saved, but he did not know if he would be "taken" before the Tribulation, which would be included in the first resurrection rewards of reigning with Christ in the millennium.
Oh I think there are unsaved in all camps of thought.. mine and yours. And many will be saved in each area too. Could someone go through the trib without thinking they are? It's seems hard to believe, but yeah, I'm sure it could/will happen. Will it be me specifically? err.. I hope not.
There are unsaved in all camps. We can only speak of what we know for sure, since only God knows the specific numbers. What can we say then? We can say a greater percentage of premillennial are saved that historicalists (amill., post-mill., preterisms). We can also say that a greater percentage of post-trib are saved than pre-trib, for the latter are so overassuming, and clearly have a lower conscience in experience. I can testify to this about the various many pretrib and posttrib people I know. This is all testable and provable in day to day life, but it can also be proven in lab experiments. I don't think anyone has ever done that, but it is doable. And still, you might be saved, but you will certainly lose rewards. Satan's objective is to find a way to get you to think it is not the Tribulation and to think you are already saved when you are not. He has fulfilled this in no better way than in your end-time view. And even if he might not be able to convince you that you are saved when you are not, because you are really saved, still he has caused you to go into carnality as much as could be possible for a Christian by denying accountability for Christians. This is your great sin. It sticks out like a sore thumb: antinomianism. In the Tribulation, there will be those who hide in caves, ashamed of themselves. Then, there will be others that will side with the Antichrist in a great army in the middle east. Still there will many of those who think they are saved when they are not, such as those like yourself, if you are not saved by then, who enter the Tribulation assuming it is not the Tribulation when it obviously is. It takes all kinds. Many will think the Tribulation is just WWIV as opposed to the ultimate consummation of this age. This is likely the position you will take as you have already indicated this would be your assumption when you are in the Tribulation. In this, we see another assumption on your part, that is, assuming most everyone would know the Tribulation is the Tribulation. This is consistent with your behavior pattern, your conduct, which you deem accurate, but can not possibly be.
No, I disagree on rapture having anything to do with works. All the good I do is only made possible by God anyways. Besides that, I don't see a partial rapture playing out in the book of Revelation.
You are free to disagree all your like, but God said to keep the conduct, Matthew 5-7. The hidden treasure is the reward of reigning with Christ that some Christians receive. In your faith there is no consequence not to keeping God's works set for you to abide in His will. This allows you to do anything you like without conscience so you think, but are you really saved? And if you are, do you really think you deserve the rewards of reigning for the 1000 years (Rev. 20.4)? If God leaves out the 5 unwise virgins, who are also saved, would you not also be left out of the marriage feast? This would not make God righteous if He did not deal with consequences to sin. The good you do could very well be of the "good self" and not good at all. These are the unsaved tares. The good self can not save you one iota. It is merely your own strength. This is sad really because you go your own way.
Thus, we must conclude given all that has been said, that first rapture is according to readiness, while the 7th trumpet resurrection is according to completion. There are many more proofs we can use, for example, to show that there is no rapture at Rev. 4 because ch. 4 is about the view of God's kingdom from heaven, ch. 5 is about the rapture of Christ, and ch. 6 is the past 20 centuries. John was only raptured in spirit, not bodily, so it was a vision. The 24 elders can not be the church either, http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Revelation_4.htm
I thought it would be helpful to show you this by retracing earliest steps to see initial mistaken assumptions can be dangerous and lead to a whole other belief systems which you are under.
Carnal believer? no no. The born again believer will not sin like a carnal person.. trip-ups? sure. Diving in? never. I know very well that trusting the Lord is difficult, but (& I am sure you agree here) it must be done. If the good fruit is not there, they're probably not saved. Those that missed the 1st rapture because they thought they had time to play and not work are out of luck; no more raptures, but they can still be saved & should be thankful for that.
Carnal believer? yes, yes. Just as one who is a babe in Christ has to grow, so too does one who is in Christ falls if he does not keep the conduct of Matthew 5-7, though remaining saved. Many Christians prefer to be soulish as possible, thus, shall lose rewards (not be included in the first resurrection, Rev. 20.4). A Christian will not sin like an unbeliever, but nor will a spiritual Christian sin like a carnal Christian. Know that you will be judged for your own words: you said "if the good fruit is not there, they're probably not saved;" by this we may conclude that you are not saved applying your own words to yourself since to overassume first rapture is not a good fruit but leads to rejecting accountability and rewards, no co-death, and thus not accepting truly the substitution of Christ. You may think you have time to play with overassuming to consider one day repenting, but by then it will be too late.
The pretrib view is all or nothing, but God's nature or way of doing things is through transitions. One of those transitions is firstfruits according to readiness or advanced parties.
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