Why is Aleksandar the Non-OSASer Going to Hell?

[Aleksandar]

You have written a lot of text in which, unfortunatelly, you intentionally twist the Holy Scripture, explaining it in your way, not in accordance with itself. It would be necessary much time to answer all this, but instead I’ll answer something we discussed earlier and that will be enough to cover answer on your last posts since the point is that you refuse truth of the Bible, so if you didn’t accept biblical truth earlier it’s not worth to answer on your later denial biblical truths.

For example, you said (http://biblocality.com/forums/showth...-Going-to-Hell, 08-08-2012, 02:23 PM #5):
“Nowhere in Matthew 7.22,23 do we find Hell spoken of in any way so these passages are speaking to Christians who are being carnal and thus, shall receive their discipline.”
It is not spoken in Matthew 7:22,23 but, as I said, it is spoken in Matthew 7:19 (“Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.”). It is also spoken in Matthew 7:13 which is part of the same context; “lawlessness” from verse 23 is “broad way” from verse 13 “that leadeth to destruction”. Here is word “destruction“ synonym for the Hell.
Then, words from verse 23 “I never knew you” are parallel with words from Luke 13:25 “I know you not whence ye are” which represent answer on question put in Luke 13:23: “Lord, are there few that be saved?” Then in verses 27 and 28: “…depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.²⁸ There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.” All of us know that a place where shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth is the Hell. Etc. (Read in Luke 13 all verses from v. 23 to v. 30).
So, it’s clear that Churchwork’s explanation that “"Depart from me" simply denotes that they have no part in the glory, a glory which is very different from what is mentioned in 2 Thessalonians 1.9” is totally wrong.

Another good example is that we discussed out of forum.
Churchwork:
“You quoted verses without comment on them. How is that clear?”

Aleksandar:
“Well, I don't know what's unclear e.g. from this:
“And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.” (Mat 6:12)
“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Mat 6:14-15)
That means that if we forgive we'll be forgived. If we don't forgive, Father will not forgive us what means we'll go to the Hell. So, even born again can go to Hell if they don't forgive others.”

Churchwork:
“Quoting a verse as though it agrees with you without any comment on it shows your overassuming nature as well as lack of consideration for others because you don't give your interpretation.
I see you made a short comment this time, but your interpretation is false since the Bible says salvation is not by works lest anyone should boast. So a Christian who doesn't forgive someone isn't going to Hell, but they certainly will lose rewards.”

It’s not true. Christian who doesn't forgive someone is going to Hell.

So, we will neither be saved only by works nor only by faith but by both of them. When the Bible says that we are saved by faith in Jesus Christ it implies that we obey God in whom we believe. As the Bible says: “demons believe and tremble”, but they disobey God, they are against Him. So, let’s not be like demons but like true Christ’s disciples who not only listen to God's word but also do all He ordered as God says in the Bible that we must do to be saved. Faith is at the first place and then works at the second place. Works follow faith. That’s why I say it is works of faith. But both is necessary. Faith saves man, but if we see that man does iniquity, doesn’t repent, doesn’t confirm his faith in everyday life then that means he doesn’t have faith though he says he has it. So, real faith is confess of Jesus by lips, heart and good works. We can’t do good works by own means, but by The Holy Spirit. We do a little, God does all other. But, if we don’t have good works that means we are not in Grace of The Holy Spirit.

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[Churchwork]

You seem hurt, because you are no longer talking to me personally in your posts, but talking about me.

You got yourself caught in a lie. I said in post #5, “Nowhere in Matthew 7.22,23 do we find Hell spoken of in any way so these passages are speaking to Christians who are being carnal and thus, shall receive their discipline.” I said this in response to what you said in post #4: "It is about Hell for those who trespass because 'cast into the fire' is clearly mentioned. And in verse 22 and 23." Fire and Hell are not mentioned in verses 22 and 23. Then you changed your story and agreed, "It is not spoken in Matthew 7:22,23." You're confused. You should acknowledge your former mistake in claiming Hell is mentioned in these two verses.

Matt. 7.15-20 is a passage talking about false prophets. Matt. 7.21-23 is talking about conditions for entering the kingdom (not the New City but the millennial reign with Christ on earth for 1000 years). You're conflating and mingling passages that talk about eternal perdition with the millennial kingdom. Satan is the author of confusion and you are doing his bidding.

Matt. 7.13-14 is talking about the two gates and the two ways, not about eternal perdition. This passage is talking about the conditions for entering the kingdom. Many are called Christians but few are chosen to reign during the millennial kingdom. The gate speaks of outward conduct and the way of a deeper inner life in Christ daily along the path of an overcomer.

Why is it so important to "enter in by the narrow gate"? The word "destruction" may mean either perdition or ruin. In the case at hand, it is better to translate the word as "ruin" or "waste"; in other words, what is meant here is that everything will be demolished or ruined if the wide gate and the broad way are chosen (the dross of those false works will be burned off by Hell). And even should the word "destruction" be translated as "perdition" it can only refer to temporary, not eternal, perdition. Recall the analogy of someone painting a house but gets paint all over himself because he was sloppy. Instead of being able to go directly to the soothing shower, representing the marriage feast of the millennial kingdom, he must have gasoline applied to his skin which stings to take the paint off his skin. So before he can even enter outer darkness he first must have Hell burn off the dross of his false works then he is to be disciplined for 1000 years because he does not get the reward of returning with Christ to reign during the millennial kingdom.

For you it is salvation by works and a person can get resaved over and over, whereas I gave my life to the God who always keeps those who are born-again. I am born-again. I'm humble enough to accept that I could not keep myself saved. You admit you have never claimed to be born-again. Of course you are not born-again.

Weeping and gnashing of teeth just refers to regret. It does not necessitate going to Hell. "I never knew you" also doesn't indicate going to Hell, but can refer to not recognizing one's works as valid. Thus, there are consequences for Christians, many whom will lose the reward of returning with Christ to reign on earth for 1000 years. Though they cannot lose eternal life they certainly can lose rewards. But you are not even saved.

Not forgiving someone has consequences for a Christian by losing rewards. How strange a faith you have that the second a Christian does not forgive someone they would not be saved so they have to get saved again. How precious are the Lord's words that salvation is not by works lest anyone should boast.

We are saved by grace through faith alone for initial salvation. Since salvation is not by works, we can neither gain salvation nor lose it by works even by our faith once saved. God keeps us who are born-again faithful. But we can lose rewards if our works are inadequate and not in accordance with God's will for us.

Works are necessary unto rewards, not for initial salvation, nor to keep oneself saved. Thus, since you claim you can lose salvation tomorrow, this is how I know you were never born-again, because in your pride you think you are strong enough, great enough, to keep yourself saved by your works. If you were a Christian you would have known that God who is infinitely greater than us says no man can keep the law, we are all sinners, so He affords us one thing to be able to come to the cross as helpless sinners to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior, the very Jesus who keeps His elect and lets no man pluck us out of His hand. Even when we are not faithful, He remains faithful for us to keep us saved.

The Bible distinguishes between the righteousness of Christ and the righteousnesses of the saints. These righteousnesses of the saints are in keeping with the righteousness of Christ, but a Christian who is being self-righteous will be cast into outer darkness, outside the light of reward of reigning with Christ for the 1000 years.

My prayer is one day you give your life to Christ, because clearly you are not born-again, not a child of God and not a member of the body of Christ. Your faith is in agreement with the Roman Church and William Lane Craig. You are going to Hell with them since you refuse to repent and believe in Christ to be kept to receive Jesus, "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand" (John 10.28). You're like someone who has entered the door with one foot out at all times or like a bad marriage with a prenuptial in hand ready to deploy at any moment the minute things are not going your selfish way.

It gets you off to lord over others they lose salvation according to their works when in reality no man is even able to keep them, and you pridefully assuming all your works are right. Where you see righteousness of your works, I see your self-righteousness that does not come from the Holy Spirit. Are there others on the planet like you who, henceforth, never sin and all their works are always perfect? You are so great! Who can compare to you? Are you the only one able to keep the law or are there others like you? But I thought the Bible says nobody can keep the law, and if you try to live by the law you will die by the law in your works, even a law you create for yourself.

Your faith is so cold and empty. Where the Bible is often talking about overcoming in Christ, you are relegating it only to being saved and not being saved as you throw out the millennial reign of Christ on earth, removing this passages from the Bible such as: "Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints (not all saints just the overcomer believers, Rev. 20.4-6). To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard [speeches] which ungodly sinners have spoken against him" (Jude 14,15). Where does Jesus come to? To earth. To the 3rd Temple in Jerusalem. Are you an adherent of replacement theology hostile to God's promise to Israel?

How shallow the Bible would be if it only talked about salvation and not being saved, rather than also talking about overcoming in Christ, rewards and accountability for Christians: "And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. And I will give him the morning star. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches" (Rev. 2.26-29). The churches are localities of believers that are saved, born-again, having eternal life which can never be lost.

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory" (Eph. 1.13,14).

"But it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has commissioned us; who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee" (2 Cor. 1.21-22).

It makes me sad that you know no such salvation that can never be lost so the Lord does not know you. He not only disapproves of your works, but also the false Christ you worship, thus, you have never been born-again or received eternal life. You are going to Hell.

[Aleksandar]

You seem hurt, because you are no longer talking to me personally in your posts, but talking about me.

I'm not hurt. I cited discussion between you and me because I considered that it's good way to more lighten this topic.

You got yourself caught in a lie. I said in post #5, “Nowhere in Matthew 7.22,23 do we find Hell spoken of in any way so these passages are speaking to Christians who are being carnal and thus, shall receive their discipline.” I said this in response to what you said in post #4: "It is about Hell for those who trespass because 'cast into the fire' is clearly mentioned. And in verse 22 and 23." Fire and Hell are not mentioned in verses 22 and 23. Then you changed your story and agreed, "It is not spoken in Matthew 7:22,23." You're confused. You should acknowledge your former mistake in claiming Hell is mentioned in these two verses.

I didn't lie. I just didn't speak quite precisely. When I said: "It is not spoken in Matthew 7:22,23." I meant word "Hell" is not spoken, but that the Hell is spoken in Matthew 7:19 through word "fire" (phrase "cast into the fire") .That I really think that verse 22 and verse 23 speak about the Hell though word "Hell" is not mentioned, the proof is this what I said too: "It is also spoken in Matthew 7:13 which is part of the same context; “lawlessness” from verse 23 is “broad way” from verse 13 “that leadeth to destruction”. Here is word “destruction“ synonym for the Hell." what is in accordance with what I said earlier too: "It is about Hell for those who trespass because 'cast into the fire' is clearly mentioned. And in verse 22 and 23." So, maybe I didn't speak quite precisely, but you must understand that I have no a lot of time for writing, that I write here in English and not in Serbian which is my native language and that some mistakes, unfortunately, can't be avoided. Nevertheless, I think that most of this I write is understandable, that I have not a lot of mistakes and that if you had pure heart you could understand this not as my lie (what it isn't), but as it is, as I have just described. The most important is true spirit in which I write. On the other hand, unfortunately, I see that you write many lies and slanders about me. But, God will judge all of us, all our thoughts and all hidden in heart will be known to all angels and men if we don't repent on time.

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[Aleksandar]

>>Conditional security is acceptable only to those who also believe that they somehow contributed to their salvation in the first place (which Arminian theology logically implies). But this flies in the face of such passages as Ephesians 2:8-9: “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast,” which clearly assert that we contribute absolutely nothing to our salvation; even the faith necessary to receive the gift of grace, is itself a gift of God.<<[1]

This calvinistic interpretation is completely wrong and unbiblical. The Bible teaches that every man contributes to his own salvation. That contribution The Bible calls “ the acts of faith”. The Bible also teaches that there are other kinds of acts, which do not contribute to the salvation and which are called “the acts of the law”. Calvinists do not make that biblical difference, between “the acts of faith” and “the acts of the law”, and that is why they misinterpret the words “For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast” in the Ephesians 2:8-9. In this quotation by “the acts” The Bible means “the acts of the law”, i.e. physical circumcision, and not “the acts of faith”. What indicates that fact is the expression "so that no one can boast" which is parallel to the sequential part:

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[Churchwork]

>>Conditional security is acceptable only to those who also believe that they somehow contributed to their salvation in the first place (which Arminian theology logically implies).

Conditional security is not even applicable to Arminians, for an Arminian gives his life to the God who keeps. Thus, God keeps those who came to the cross as helpless sinners to receive the Lord Jesus as Savior. Jacob Arminius said never once did he ever teach a person could lose salvation so don't sin bearing false witness against him. Conditional security, rather, is limited only to Remonstrants who hold the same teaching as the Roman Church and Eastern Orthodox and so many other religions and denominations. It is the most popular teaching in Christendom, but it is not Christian.

Are faith and works contrasted as opposites? "By grace are ye saved, through faith;...not of works" (Eph. 2.8-9); "But to him that worketh not, but believeth..." (Rom. 4.5). Christ repeatedly gave such invitations as "Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest" (Matt. 11.28), and "If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink" (John 7.37).

Does an Arminian contribute to his salvation? God does the saving, of course, and has set it up so that to be saved a person must search God out with all his heart and soul so as to surely find Him. Only then will God give the gift of repentance and faith unto regeneration which can never be lost. Since every human being has been provided sufficient grace to have the free choice, none of us are without excuse.

All 5 points of Calvinism are false: total depravity, unconditional election, limited atonement, irresistible grace, perseverance of the saints. The saints don't persevere to keep themselves saved. How similar the 5th point of Calvinism is to the 5th point of Remonstrants. All 5 points of Arminian are true that God predestinates by foreknowing our free choice: a conditional election, unlimited atonement, resistible grace, for preservation of the saints. The 5th point of Remonstrants is false, that being non-preservation of all the saints which is Satanic.

Calvinism is just as false as Remonstrants. Aleksandar, you are not an Arminian, but a Remonstrant, because you refuse to give your life to the Jesus who always keeps, exalting your own self-strength to keep yourself saved or to lose that salvation. Clearly, you have never been born-again and are no better off than Calvinists who are also going to Hell with you. And that makes me sad for you, for you know not what you do.

[Churchwork]

I'm not hurt. I cited discussion between you and me because I considered that it's good way to more lighten this topic.

You're not being honest with yourself. You said, "So, it’s clear that Churchwork’s explanation that...." is not the same as "Churchwork, it is clear that...." When Jesus spoke to people He did so personally. If all you want to do is post about me rather than have a conversation with me then you are on the wrong forum.

Don't be hurt, for your feeling is untrustworthy. It is the product of a lie in worshiping a false Christ who is unable to save all those born-again.

I didn't lie. I just didn't speak quite precisely. When I said: "It is not spoken in Matthew 7:22,23." I meant word "Hell" is not spoken, but that the Hell is spoken in Matthew 7:19 through word "fire" (phrase "cast into the fire") .That I really think that verse 22 and verse 23 speak about the Hell though word "Hell" is not mentioned, the proof is this what I said too: "It is also spoken in Matthew 7:13 which is part of the same context; “lawlessness” from verse 23 is “broad way” from verse 13 “that leadeth to destruction”. Here is word “destruction“ synonym for the Hell." what is in accordance with what I said earlier too: "It is about Hell for those who trespass because 'cast into the fire' is clearly mentioned. And in verse 22 and 23." So, maybe I didn't speak quite precisely, but you must understand that I have no a lot of time for writing, that I write here in English and not in Serbian which is my native language and that some mistakes, unfortunately, can't be avoided. Nevertheless, I think that most of this I write is understandable, that I have not a lot of mistakes and that if you had pure heart you could understand this not as my lie (what it isn't), but as it is, as I have just described. The most important is true spirit in which I write. On the other hand, unfortunately, I see that you write many lies and slanders about me. But, God will judge all of us, all our thoughts and all hidden in heart will be known to all angels and men if we don't repent on time.

A lie is still a lie whether you intentionally committed it or not. It was not that you were imprecise, but you were dead wrong. You said, "It is about Hell for those who trespass because 'cast into the fire' is clearly mentioned. And in verse 22 and 23." Fire and Hell are not mentioned in verses 22 and 23. Then you changed your story and agreed, "It is not spoken in Matthew 7:22,23." You should acknowledge your former mistake in claiming Hell is mentioned in these two verses if you claim you meant the opposite, but don't claim it is because your English is not very good since it is not an error in English. Own your mistake. Take responsibility for your actions.

I think it is rude to repeat what you said rather than respond to what I said. What I said was that you are mingling passages into one which are talking about different things. At least admit you assume since it is not explicitly stated what you believe. Matt. 7.13-14 is talking about the two gates and two ways for believers, not about eternal perdition. Matt. 7.15-20 is talking about false prophets who are going to perdition. And Matt. 7.21-23 is talking about the conditions for entering the millennial kingdom to return with Christ to reign over the nations for 1000 years. By thus reading as such there is no conflict with John 10.28 that those who are born-again "they shall never perish." Amen.

"Destruction" in this context applies to the false works of a carnal Christian, not to the carnal Christian going to Hell. Remember, there are consequences for Christians who are behaving fleshly. Does your faith not allow for this? I recall you saying someone who doesn't forgive goes to Hell. You don't sound very forgiving but blaming so according to you, you should go to Hell. I know many Christians who are unforgiving on some matters, but they don't go to Hell for it though their works shall certainly be burned off by Hell and they shall lose rewards.

Don't blame me for my recognizing the error of your ways. You slander yourself and write many lies which I have exposed here. I am here to point out your overassuming and misreading as a servant of God should to help you. Take it as such and receive the help you so desperately need.

[spiritualman]

How disconcerting that must be for you Aleksandar that you never know if you will be saved tomorrow since at any moment you could change your mind according to your faith. Therefore, you cannot move forward boldly in life. Whereas Christians we are comforted in knowing God by His grace keeps us faithful and regenerated since this is what we requested of Him to do so in giving our lives to Christ as no man would be strong enough to keep himself faithful and saved. This is the God you have no relationship with; therefore, you are going to Hell. This takes humility to accept. Delusionally, you think you can keep yourself sinless and faithful, but that is just the pride of life. Even more delusional you think you are sinless for if you were not according to your faith you would be going to Hell.

Take it even further. In a billion or trillion years from now, according to your faith, you might have a change of mind since you always have the choice. Why should that choice end after you die in your view? But God says you will remain in Hell for eternity and never change your mind, just as those who are saved will never forsake God in the New City and New Earth in eternity future, not a one. It is sad to know that you believe in Satan's counterfeit who when he gives eternal life when a person is born-again is not really eternal life at all.

Experientially, I have never met anyone over the age of 50 who ever gave their lives to Christ. This is telling. It speaks of the fact they have long since made their decision and they have a foretaste of Hell. They will never change their mind. Just as Christians once-saved will always remain saved. This is what it is to be a Christian. You are not a Christian since you believe potentially you could lose your faith tomorrow.

While I can never have your faith, praise the Lord, you could still be my brother in Christ one day if you were to give your life to the Jesus I have shown you before you leave your body of flesh and blood. The decision is final for those who are born-again today, but the decision is not final for the unsaved until they go to rest. Since you are not born-again, but unsaved, there is still the opportunity for you to give your life to Christ.